The so called "hybrid tax"

[necemoci]

Pretend you dont see this

[xixixviixiiii]

This again, huh?

The reason there is and will probably continue to be a hybrid tax isn't really due to buffs but role selection. People play a class, not a spec. More often than not many spec's are not even viable in various settings (Frost Mages or Subtlety Rogues in high-end raid content, Combat Rogues in high-end PvP, for example) so people can't really choose between all of their spec options. A typical raid composition will probably look something like 2 tanks, 3 healers, 2 melee DPS and 3 ranged DPS. The rogue class is essentially competing for 2 spots versus the warrior with 4 spots. A paladin can fill 7 potential spots. A druid can fulfill any role.

The truth is however, Blizzard is really bad at class balance and thus generally prefers to give pure DPS classes a slight advantage since that is their only function. In reality, the hybrid tax is basically nonexistent; so transparent, in fact, that latency, encounter design, a slight gear advantage or small skill advantage can make a huge difference. Hybrids beat pure DPS classes all of the time.

Pretty basic logic. Not really sure why people don't understand something so simple.

[necemoci]

^Best first post in a long time,thank you and good night.

[coocoo]

You have 2 people joining a raid as dps. Why is it unfair that they both do same dps?

You form a 25 man raid with 3 tanks 5 healers 17 dps. Why would you want to pick a dps'er who does less dps?

Hybrid tax idea needs to die.

[Shifthappens]

its all about whos behind the charcter, not what class you are, if im equally geared hybrid doing more dps then say a rog, or a mage, well then they doing something wrong! Raid leaders look at these things, if u suck at your class (and many ppl are in Wrath) then read some forums, fix it, instead of wining that Hybrids should do less DPS.

Hybrid term needs to die, i play hybrid because i want to invest into 1 character, not lvl 3-4 different classes. u still need gear, spec, gems in 1 tree to be competetive! U CANNOT DO ALL THINGS SAME TIME, GET IT THRO YOUR HEAD.

ITS SO MISINTERPRETED

[Driizzt]

If you can't understand its not about what buffs/utility that you bring, but rather if you so choose(even if you decide against it) you can change your entire raid role. If you cant understand that, then maybe you shouldn't be playing this game. So yes, you deserve a Hybrid Tax, and get over it. You will never get it taken away.

[guerron]

There is no such thing as hybrid tax.

We have different specs doing randomly well dps. Blizz tries to tell the 'pures' the get a little Bonus (hybrids get taxed whatever) to make up for the lack of rolechanging possibilities.
What we see is that since BC Warriors are the best meelee dps by far. This hasen't been changed or adresses, instead plate-dps (i.e. HYBRIDS!!!) is given a legendary dps-weapon.
All Wol-Analyses has shown no clear 'pures'-Advantage, besides Ele-Shaman and Moonkin being bad (and not gettting buffs).

Although warrriors did very good dps, we do not see rogue population vanish.

[Nurvus]

Do you realy think its fair that druid with 1 melee/tank tree,1 range caster tree and a goddamn healing tree(and every spec gives a raidwide buff) should do exact same dps if gear and skill are on same lvl as rogue/mage/lock/hunter?

Hybrid tax never was about buff bringing,it was about all of the above.Warlocks got CR so we dont stack 5+ druids just for sake of CR,and trust me,the fact that they got CR wont shut them up if boomkin start raping them with dps,ss to bear tank,tank,tank and raid heal with tranq while being begged for inervate...Who is imbalanced atm,pures are not for sure.

If there wasnt any pvp involved,simple solution would be:

3 dps specs=100% dmg
2 dps specs= 90% dmg
1 dps spec = 80% dmg

Rough numbers,but you get the picture.

The difference between a Hybrid and a Pure is the level up experience - it saves you the process of leveling up a 2nd character.
Leveling isn't a sacrifice - it's meant to be fun too, so it can't be counted as a "hybrid advantage".
Yet, you still have to learn to play more than 1 spec & gather gear for more than 1 spec.

The only meaningful advantage towards Hybrids is being able to change spec DURING a raid.
That need is a raid design flaw - shouldn't exist.

Nevertheless, it can easily be fixed by "locking" your current spec to the raid save, forcing you to stay on that spec on that particular raid -save-.

This would remove the need for any sort of hybrid tax and end this bickering once and for all.
---
By the way, Necemoci, the ridiculous numbers in your suggestion show you didn't even think about it - you're the one who doesn't get the picture.

To even suggest that the ability to change spec during raid - the one and only meaningful advantage of hybrids, useless 99% of the time - should warrant so much as a 5% penalty to overall damage is just sad...

[Mistgun]

This is where blizzards "Bring the player not the class" comes in mind. Just because druids can heal tank and dps shouldn't mean that they should perform worse than say classes that are pure dps class. Just cause were hybrid doesn't mean if the tank died a moonkin can hop into bear and continue tanking.

[Driizzt]

All i hear is too many people QQ about the hybrid tax. If you wanna be top dog DPS, then roll a pure. If you decide you want to heal/tank/hybrid dps, bring that class. Other than that its just people QQing on the official forums, attempting to campaign for Hyrbid DPS buffs. Not gonna happen folks.

[xixixviixiiii]

You have 2 people joining a raid as dps. Why is it unfair that they both do same dps?

You form a 25 man raid with 3 tanks 5 healers 17 dps. Why would you want to pick a dps'er who does less dps?

Hybrid tax idea needs to die.

Even if a rogue had every single raid buff and did 10x as much DPS as every other class, you'd still only bring 2-3 of them in a 10-man raid. The DPS difference between hybrid and pure classes is so minuscule in most encounters that most people wouldn't even know the hybrid tax existed if it wasn't documented in a blue post. Your average guild certainly would not notice. Class balance is not done in a vacuum. Latency, encounter design, gear, skill, RNG and raid composition all play a part in how well people perform.

Why would you want to bring a DPS class who does less DPS? That's easy to answer. The same reason progression-minded high-end raid guilds don't stack nothing but Fury warriors.

Again, the hybrid tax is in place and will probably remain in place because it basically comes down to an issue of the viability of one spec of one class (Balance druid, for example) versus an entire class (hunter). If a Balance druid was guaranteed to do the same DPS as a hunter, one would have to assume the Balance druid then is doing the same DPS as the top DPS spec a hunter has-- therefore, the viability of other hunter spec's begins to evaporate, whereas the druid still has 3 other viable spec's fulfilling different roles; roles that a hunter can't possibly fulfill regardless of his spec choice.

Like I said, really simple stuff. Still not sure what people don't understand.

The difference between a Hybrid and a Pure is the level up experience.
If want to play prot pala and holy pala, you must gather twice the gear, investing about as much time as you would gearing up an arcane mage + combat rogue.

The only meaningful advantage towards Hybrids is being able to change spec DURING a raid.
That need is a raid design flaw - shouldn't exist.

Nevertheless, it can easily be fixed by "locking" your current spec to the raid save, forcing you to stay on that spec on that particular raid -save-.

This would remove the need for any sort of hybrid tax and end this bickering once and for all.
---
By the way, Necemoci, the ridiculous numbers in your suggestion show you didn't even think about it - you're the one who doesn't get the picture.

To even suggest that the ability to change spec during raid - the one and only meaningful advantage of hybrids, useless 99% of the time - should warrant a 10% penalty to overall damage is just sad...

That gear argument isn't worth much. If a rogue wants to do competitive DPS with an Assassination spec and a Combat spec he practically needs two different sets of gear anyway. One prefers such and such gems, they want different weapons, different pieces of gear (trinkets, stats, etc.). That's not a good argument, especially considering as a Holy paladin (or whatever) drops are more or less guaranteed to go to you in your first run unless there are other Holy paladins.

The point with hybrid viability isn't during one encounter but between encounters. A druid can heal one encounter and tank the next one. They do it all of the time, everyday. A druid who does nothing but Feral cat DPS and refuses to ever tank, heal or do ranged DPS is probably extremely rare and that player is gimping themselves. The difference between rogue spec's in a raid setting (granted he even has a second raid spec, which he probably won't, in favor of a PvP spec) is probably 2-3 talent points or as little as a different Glyph.

The locking a class into one spec wouldn't really work and you and I both know it will never happen anyway. People chose a hybrid because they were drawn to the versatility of the class, not because they loved how a Retribution paladin played. I know this because 1) people have no idea how a Retribution plays end-game starting out and 2) it changes every expansion.

[ELEDIN]

I dont think it can be balanced.
We all need to do the same dps because you wouldnt choose a moonkin over a mage
We all need to bring nice buffs cause you wouldnt choose a mage over a moonkin
But the moonkin can change spec and more helpful on the raid or even drop moonkin form and heal if its necesary for a short period, The mage cant.
The mage can only choose 3 diferent play styles on the same role. its only a fun advantage not so helpfull.
I sugest the only way to fix this is to give healing or tank specs on pure classes

[Samimasi]

I see a lot of you are confused here about why hybrids have a tax.

The reason isn't because of buffs they bring, or because an ele shammy has the ability to throw a heal in the raid or whatever things of this sort.


The reason is they have the ability to respec and choose another role if they fail as a dps. A pure dps class doesn't have that luxury. That's it.


Go read the sticky "Hybrid tax" made by GC in the dps forums.

[Lebored]

This again, huh?

The reason there is and will probably continue to be a hybrid tax isn't really due to buffs but role selection. People play a class, not a spec. More often than not many spec's are not even viable in various settings (Frost Mages or Subtlety Rogues in high-end raid content, Combat Rogues in high-end PvP, for example) so people can't really choose between all of their spec options. A typical raid composition will probably look something like 2 tanks, 3 healers, 2 melee DPS and 3 ranged DPS. The rogue class is essentially competing for 2 spots versus the warrior with 4 spots. A paladin can fill 7 potential spots. A druid can fulfill any role.

The truth is however, Blizzard is really bad at class balance and thus generally prefers to give pure DPS classes a slight advantage since that is their only function. In reality, the hybrid tax is basically nonexistent; so transparent, in fact, that latency, encounter design, a slight gear advantage or small skill advantage can make a huge difference. Hybrids beat pure DPS classes all of the time.

Pretty basic logic. Not really sure why people don't understand something so simple.

A Druid can fulfill any role, My Druid only has gear to support 1, well now that ICC has been the only raid Ive got more but from Naxx to early ICC only 1.
Once Cata hits and I can't run both 10m and 25m the amount of gear dropping will go down furthering the fact that I will only have the gear to support 1 role
Add if Cata is more difficult I will then need better gear that there will be less of.

The simple reality is that it doesn't matter how many roles we could hypothetically be filling, we will be filling the exact same number of roles in reality, 1
Why should you do your 1 role in the raid better than I do my 1 role in the raid?

Why are people pretending that hybrids can just push a button and be instantly granted the gear to do extra roles?

[Nurvus]

Even if a rogue had every single raid buff and did 2x as much DPS as every other class, you'd still only bring 2-3 of them in a 10-man raid. The DPS difference between hybrid and pure classes is so minuscule in most encounters that most people wouldn't even know the hybrid tax existed if it wasn't documented in a blue post. Your average guild certainly would not notice. Class balance is not done in a vacuum. Latency, encounter design, gear, skill, RNG and raid composition all play a part in how well people perform.

Why would you want to bring a DPS class who does less DPS? That's easy to answer. The same reason progression-minded high-end raid guilds don't stack anything but Fury warriors.

Again, the hybrid tax is in place and will probably remain in place because it basically comes down to an issue of the viability of one spec of one class (Balance druid, for example) versus an entire class (hunter). If a Balance druid was guaranteed to do the same DPS as a hunter, one would have to assume the Balance druid then is doing the same DPS as the top DPS spec a hunter has-- therefore, the viability of other hunter spec's begins to evaporate, whereas the druid still has 3 other viable spec's fulfilling different roles.

Like I said, really simple stuff. Still not sure what people don't understand.

Progress raids benefit from spreading loot evenly.
There needs to be a -reasonably even- amount of takers for every kind of drop, including caster leather, plate and mail.

Bad scaling is just that - bad scaling - nothing to do with hybrid tax.
Broken classes are just that - broken classes - nothing to do with hybrid tax.

Hybrid tax is a concept.
This concept is wrong and should die.

Sollution: "Save" specs to raid saves so that you are forced to use the same spec on that particular save - automatically switches when u enter the raid zone - and destroy the concept of hybrid & hybrid tax once and for all.

[Eudaimonia]

A Druid can fulfill any role, My Druid only has gear to support 1, well now that ICC has been the only raid Ive got more but from Naxx to early ICC only 1.
Once Cata hits and I can't run both 10m and 25m the amount of gear dropping will go down furthering the fact that I will only have the gear to support 1 role
Add if Cata is more difficult I will then need better gear that there will be less of.

The simple reality is that it doesn't matter how many roles we could hypothetically be filling, we will be filling the exact same number of roles in reality, 1
Why should you do your 1 role in the raid better than I do my 1 role in the raid?

Why are people pretending that hybrids can just push a button and be instantly granted the gear to do extra roles?

Actually, to use your tone, YOUR druid can fulfill any role, just like my druid and everyone else's druid. Sure, you've got to get different gear (though depending on what role you are switching to and from, you may find plenty of crossover - not optimal crossover, but passable stuff for sure...)

You can nitpick all day, but lets say I want to join Raiding guild TEAM MONGOOSE and they only have 1 spot open. No matter what that spot is, Im more likely to get an invite on my druid than on my rogue. Period.

And whine all you want about gear, but I'm pretty sure I see a dozen threads a week about how easy gear is to obtain nowadays and woe is me, so apparently its not that hard to get, and any way you slice it its still wasy easier than rerolling another toon and gearing it.

Besides, the hybrid tax itself is minimal. I doubt most people would really notice on their own if it went away (and no one mentioned it to them).

[ELEDIN]

Progress raids benefit from spreading loot evenly.
There needs to be a -reasonably even- amount of takers for every kind of drop, including caster leather, plate and mail.

Bad scaling is just that - bad scaling - nothing to do with hybrid tax.
Broken classes are just that - broken classes - nothing to do with hybrid tax.

Hybrid tax is a concept.
This concept is wrong and should die.

Sollution: "Save" specs to raid saves so that you are forced to use the same spec on that particular save - automatically switches when u enter the raid zone - and destroy the concept of hybrid & hybrid tax once and for all.

I dont like your solution its not fun. I prefer the solution that evry class have a healing or tank spec with their own unique way.

[Eudaimonia]

Progress raids benefit from spreading loot evenly.
There needs to be a -reasonably even- amount of takers for every kind of drop, including caster leather, plate and mail.

Bad scaling is just that - bad scaling - nothing to do with hybrid tax.
Broken classes are just that - broken classes - nothing to do with hybrid tax.

Hybrid tax is a concept.
This concept is wrong and should die.

Sollution: "Save" specs to raid saves so that you are forced to use the same spec on that particular save - automatically switches when u enter the raid zone - and destroy the concept of hybrid & hybrid tax once and for all.

Youre ignoring the fact that on a druid (or some other hybrid), if your raid spot becomes scarce due to overabundance of that role, you still have the possible option of switching specs in the long term and saving your raid spot. The hybrid tax doesnt exist because of people switching specs mid instance, the hybrid tax exists because a hybrid is, by nature, much more versatile in the long run. If my guild is taking me as feral kitty, and then some rogue from the old days comes back and gets my spot (these things happen, not sayings its fair or right but that kind of thing happens all the time to lots of people), I still have the option of specing bear or tree or boomkin and taking some other spot. Sure, I might have to regear, but its probably better than getting a new guild. It's that versatility that justifies a slight hybrid tax, because in the reverse situation, the rogue is stuck no options - find a new guild or dont raid at all.

---------- Post added 2010-09-27 at 02:52 AM ----------

I dont like your solution its not fun. I prefer the solution that evry class have a healing or tank spec with their own unique way.

Tanking mages and healing rogues?

[Xeraxis]

A Druid can fulfill any role, My Druid only has gear to support 1, well now that ICC has been the only raid Ive got more but from Naxx to early ICC only 1.
Once Cata hits and I can't run both 10m and 25m the amount of gear dropping will go down furthering the fact that I will only have the gear to support 1 role
Add if Cata is more difficult I will then need better gear that there will be less of.

The simple reality is that it doesn't matter how many roles we could hypothetically be filling, we will be filling the exact same number of roles in reality, 1
Why should you do your 1 role in the raid better than I do my 1 role in the raid?

Why are people pretending that hybrids can just push a button and be instantly granted the gear to do extra roles?

Wow and here all this time I assumed it was just bad luck that mail spellpower and leather spellpower gear dropped when I was on my hunter. If I had known that only the gear that is needed in your raid is supposed to drop I could have submitted a ticket and had that problem fixed for everyone. Don't act like gear is the issue for not swapping specs in a raid. By the time everyone in a 10m or 25m has all the pieces they need from a raid instance it's highly possible that a hybrid player will have most if not all the pieces that drop from there for one of their other possible specs.

[ELEDIN]

Youre ignoring the fact that on a druid (or some other hybrid), if your raid spot becomes scarce due to overabundance of that role, you still have the possible option of switching specs in the long term and saving your raid spot. The hybrid tax doesnt exist because of people switching specs mid instance, the hybrid tax exists because a hybrid is, by nature, much more versatile in the long run. If my guild is taking me as feral kitty, and then some rogue from the old days comes back and gets my spot (these things happen, not sayings its fair or right but that kind of thing happens all the time to lots of people), I still have the option of specing bear or tree or boomkin and taking some other spot. Sure, I might have to regear, but its probably better than getting a new guild. It's that versatility that justifies a slight hybrid tax, because in the reverse situation, the rogue is stuck no options - find a new guild or dont raid at all.

---------- Post added 2010-09-27 at 02:52 AM ----------



Tanking mages and healing rogues?

Actually healing mages and tanking rogues :P