Combat "utility" points?

[OldSchoolRog]

Hi All,

Has anyone else found it odd that we are required to spend 4 useless points in combat(that's roughly 8% of our talent points in the tree)? I also have a DK alt, and in Unholy there is 1 point u would need to spend that would not directly increase dps. And in frost, every point spent will directly increase your DPS.

I can not for the life of me figure out why blizzard has such a hard time grasping the concept that combat rogues bring zero raid utility. The only thing we have is DPS. If we aren't topping the charts there is ZERO reason for us to be there. I cant see us competing with classes like DK's on DPS when so many of their talents go to directly buffing their dps.

This is being proven on PTR by the recent changes to Ambidexterity(bumped from 50% to 75% lol). They will just fudge these number around till we can compete. Maybe if 8% of the talent points spent in the tree weren't useless this wouldn't be the case? Id also like to thank them for the Blade Flurry nerf.. Thank you for taking a core combat talent and making it useless. No really.. As an end game combat rogue this MIGHT make my third bar for clearing trash.. Without the speed boost, and reducing my energy regen (lol), its garbage for anything but trash. Hell of a core talent...

[Enkidulgaa]

You dont know anything about what the delevopers intended with the talent trees

[OldSchoolRog]

I know Imp Sprint, Imp Kick, Imp Recup, and Reinforced Leather are garbage to me as a DPS class..Hell take those 4 and the POS Blade Flurry and give me 1 talent that will increase my raid dps and Ill be happy..

[Matti06]

I know Imp Sprint, Imp Kick, Imp Recup, and Reinforced Leather are garbage to me as a DPS class..Hell take those 4 and the POS Blade Flurry and give me 1 talent that will increase my raid dps and Ill be happy..

You're failing to comprehend the new design philosophy for Cataclysm: not every DPS talent point is spent on DPS talents. There are survival/utility options included in the trees, so that the player has some control/responsibility for their own survival

[Azyoulike]

It's actually better to have fewer dps talents, so long as your dps is still comparable in the end.

[OldSchoolRog]

Then please go back to my fist post and explain why some classes can spend every single point in talents that increase dps. Others only have to spend one or maybe 2..Not 4...

[Torne]

fail threat is fail.

[OldSchoolRog]

It's actually better to have fewer dps talents, so long as your dps is still comparable in the end.

I agree, but id rather have talents that do that, not blizz fudging around numbers of existing talents to compensate for it..

---------- Post added 2010-09-28 at 01:32 PM ----------

fail threat is fail.

Fail German is fail..

[Kenjer]

Why would you possibly prefer to have it as talents?

With talents: all of your talent points have to be spent to get up to acceptable dps
without talents: some of your talent points can be spent to chose interesting utility talents and you still have acceptable dps

The whole point of the talent tree change was to give people the CHOICE to get some interesting things without everyone feeling like they need to optimize every single talent point.

Bliz has also specifically said that they know combat is in rough shape right now and is doing a numbers pass on them. This all sounds to me a lot like a Cataclysm success story....

[Mastole]

I can not for the life of me figure out why blizzard has such a hard time grasping the concept that combat rogues bring zero raid utility.

Cause 4% bonus physical damage is obviously 0% raid utility

[Heretic013]

The abilities you mentioned are one of those that define Combat Rogue and make me consider switching to that tree. I dont care about your QQ and that you dont like it as long as I do and many (most?) others do. In terms of PvP those are great. PvE? Can be a real help. Less dmg taken and more heals.
BTW - You dont have to take all of those, oh w8! you dont need any! Thats right. Here is an example http://cata.wowhead.com/talent#fZcGccocrRGo (well I wouldnt spec that way even for PvE cause I see a potential in some of em)

You fail.
Those trees arent ready and numbers arent balanced yet.
and please read the Devs comments

[OldSchoolRog]

The abilities you mentioned are one of those that define Combat Rogue and make me consider switching to that tree. I dont care about your QQ and that you dont like it as long as I do and many (most?) others do. In terms of PvP those are great. PvE? Can be a real help. Less dmg taken and more heals.
BTW - You dont have to take all of those, oh w8! you dont need any! Thats right. Here is an example cata.wowhead.com/talent#fZcGccocrRGo (well I wouldnt spec that way even for PvE cause I see a potential in some of em)

You fail.
Those trees arent ready and numbers arent balanced yet.
and please read the Devs comments

Do u even play in beta or PTR? Or a rogue for that matter? Every rogue in it is complaining about it. I don't need a talent to heal myself, that's why we bring healers...And your spec is just as retarded (you even admit it at the end of your paragraph)with Throwing Spec, and lol blade twisting....Those two are so bad they didn't even register in my brain...Like I said, i don't mind having to spend a couple points on a utility talent, but 8% of the talent points in the tree is a bit much....

[Raqubor]

Look at this distribution i made:
http://wowtal.com/#k=8UlHcj_.a2y.rogue

Taking improved kick is a very good thing in cata. There will be casts on mobs that do massive damage, or healers who do massive healing so interrupting them is very good for your group.
Taking improved sprint is also a very good thing, because there will be a lot of mechanics where you are rooted, and higher uptime on boss = more damage done. (I never understood why dps matters more than damage done).
Or you can take throwing specialization and you will be the ultimate interrupter.

All the other talents are trivial for PVE, but now you can take talents that help with your playstyle.
Reinforced leather will help on cleave heavy fights, because you know, a dead rogue does less damage than a live one.

All in all i like the tree, and my rogue will be combat in Cata.

Ps.: just because a different class has all dps talents can mean a few things:
Rogues have enough damage without those extra talents and they need more utility, the other classes have lower damage and need the boost from the talents, since they have enough utility without talents.
If every tree was the same it would be BORING.

My one cent.

[OldSchoolRog]

Look at this distribution i made:


Taking improved kick is a very good thing in cata. There will be casts on mobs that do massive damage, or healers who do massive healing so interrupting them is very good for your group.

Why? Does regular kick not interrupt? Who cares about a 1 second silence as long as you interrupt them..

Taking improved sprint is also a very good thing, because there will be a lot of mechanics where you are rooted, and higher uptime on boss = more damage done.

CoS..Vanish...This will be handy in those fights where i cant use either of those 2 in a fight.. There is a reason this talent has never been used since release..

Or you can take throwing specialization and you will be the ultimate interrupter.

I see, Im there to interrupt from range...Just in case kick is down and there is no other interrupter in the group/raid..

Reinforced leather will help on cleave heavy fights, because you know, a dead rogue does less damage than a live one.

News flash, standing behind a mob not only increases your dps, but also makes u immune to frontal attacks....

Rogues have enough damage without those extra talents

No they dont, as has been posted by blues on the front page of this very site. And is evident by the tweaking of existing talent damage...(See: Ambidexterity)

[Azyoulike]

I'm unclear here - is your complaint that you have spare points to spend on utility or is your complaint that the utility points you have available are generally bad?

If it's the former then I think you're stone cold crazy, if it's the latter then there's a case to be made.

I would say that the damage reduction on Improved Recuperate is quite nice. I mean consider a fight like sindragosa, by doing some self-healing by blowing a 5 stack recuperate on an ice-tomb you will be able to take greater damage, and hence do greater damage for the next 30 secs.

Improved sprint will also have a small a mount of PvE use, snares aren't totally unheard of.

If the problem is rogue damage is too low, then that's best fixed by them buffing rogue damage, not bloating the tree with more dps talents.

[Enkidulgaa]

Let this thread die, its going nowhere
The OP simply doesnt want to understand that it doesnt matter of he cant spend 100% of his points on DPS

[OldSchoolRog]

I'm unclear here - is your complaint that you have spare points to spend on utility or is your complaint that the utility points you have available are generally bad?

If it's the former then I think you're stone cold crazy, if it's the latter then there's a case to be made.

I would say that the damage reduction on Improved Recuperate is quite nice. I mean consider a fight like sindragosa, by doing some self-healing by blowing a 5 stack recuperate on an ice-tomb you will be able to take greater damage, and hence do greater damage for the next 30 secs.

Improved sprint will also have a small a mount of PvE use, snares aren't totally unheard of.

If the problem is rogue damage is too low, then that's best fixed by them buffing rogue damage, not bloating the tree with more dps talents.

The complaint is we have to spend to many points. I shouldn't have to sacrifice doing my job to make someone elses easier.. Especially when the only thing i bring is DAMAGE. By blowing 5cps on a recup on sindi im sacrificing DPS (my job) to heal (not my job). BTW u know we can cloak out of the Sindi debuff right? I dont think removing a couple of the 7..yes 7 (and the most of any class)..useless utility talents from the combat tree would be bloating it..

[Azyoulike]

The complaint is we have to spend to many points. I shouldn't have to sacrifice doing my job to make someone elses easier..

You seem to define your job in a very limited fashion - and again I repeat - if the problem is that dps is too low they can solve that without pumping in more dps talents.

Especially when the only thing i bring is DAMAGE. By blowing 5cps on a recup on sindi im sacrificing DPS (my job) to heal (not my job).

If you're doing it on an ice-cube you're not sacrificing anything - you had to be stood behind it anyway, and you couldn't do full dps on it because it probably wasn't your job to break it.

BTW u know we can cloak out of the Sindi debuff right?

Yes I know, but the CD limits that - you will still sometimes have to choke off your dps in phase 3 - well you would have done when it was progress and P3 wasn't so short.

I dont think removing a couple of the 7..yes 7 (and the most of any class)..useless utility talents from the combat tree would be bloating it..

Errrrrm. What exactly do you mean here? You are only forced to take 4 points as you've said. Those points are useless in PvP. I really don't know what you're trying to say here.

[OldSchoolRog]

You seem to define your job in a very limited fashion - and again I repeat - if the problem is that dps is too low they can solve that without pumping in more dps talents.


Errrrrm. What exactly do you mean here? You are only forced to take 4 points as you've said. Those points are useless in PvP. I really don't know what you're trying to say here.

I mean of the 19 talents in the tree, 7 of them are utility talents.. The most of any tree of any class..

I don't define my role in a limited fashion. Blizz does..Would u like me to heal? Tank? Off Tank? Some kind of raid utility? What I cant do any of those things?? Then i guess my role is defined in a pretty limited fashion..Damage..

And if combat DPS is to low it makes more sense to you to pump up existing abilities rather than take a useless one out?

[Serissa]

News flash, standing behind a mob not only increases your dps, but also makes u immune to frontal attacks...

Pre-nerf Karazhan (360-degree cleave) says HI!