marked for death

[Markluzz]

You can either put points there, rapid killing, resistance is futile, concussive barrage, or bombardment. This is one of those, 'situational' choices, you have to spend 3 (4 if you dont take silencing shot, which i dont know why you wouldnt take) filler talents that dont upgrade your dps/situational, so pick what you want you have to put those talents somewhere if you are going mm.

[Logickal]

RiF atm is so buggy i seriously have no idea how it works at all when it can proc of target dummies.. it'll probably be more useful in boss fights because i assume a target moving a quarter of a box will trigger it

[Cyph3r]

I think many people are underestimating the benefit that a MM hunter actually gets from hunter's mark. It's a spec all about physical damage, it benefits immensely from more attack power. No one bothers putting mark up on targets that you know will die fast, but some fights have some tough adds that HAVE to die fast, and on those you really do need to mark. This talent means you don't have to anymore, you get to jump straight into the hard shots without worrying about losing a gcd to a "prep" ability. It also means not losing that same GCD AGAIN when switching back to the boss after such adds.

Here we have one of the few "situational" abilities that is actually a clear dps boost under some very common boss circumstances and you guys are trying to argue that it's no good?? I can think of a dozen situations where I'd want this talent on live right now, but I only have to provide 1 to prove my point: Val'kyr on the Lich King fight.

It's this simple: If you have this talent, every single shot you land on a target that you haven't put a proper hunter's mark on will hit HARDER than if you didn't have the talent. This happens often enough that I'm going to call this one nearly mandatory.

[Deleted]

I think many people are underestimating the benefit that a MM hunter actually gets from hunter's mark. It's a spec all about physical damage, it benefits immensely from more attack power. No one bothers putting mark up on targets that you know will die fast, but some fights have some tough adds that HAVE to die fast, and on those you really do need to mark. This talent means you don't have to anymore, you get to jump straight into the hard shots without worrying about losing a gcd to a "prep" ability. It also means not losing that same GCD AGAIN when switching back to the boss after such adds.

Here we have one of the few "situational" abilities that is actually a clear dps boost under some very common boss circumstances and you guys are trying to argue that it's no good?? I can think of a dozen situations where I'd want this talent on live right now, but I only have to provide 1 to prove my point: Val'kyr on the Lich King fight.

It's this simple: If you have this talent, every single shot you land on a target that you haven't put a proper hunter's mark on will hit HARDER than if you didn't have the talent. This happens often enough that I'm going to call this one nearly mandatory.

No doubt in that. The problem with this talent is, that it cost 2 talent points for gaining one cd single target and two cds while switching to an add. It also depends on how many other MM with this talent specced you got in you raid.

This is still to be calculated, if the GCD gain is worth more than damage gain you might get from other talents.

[Spl4sh3r]

I have one question about it though, does it boost every Hunter in the raid or just the Marksmanship Hunter who has the talent?

[Deleted]

I have one question about it though, does it boost every Hunter in the raid or just the Marksmanship Hunter who has the talent?

It boosts every ranged ap.

[Moyotoshi]

Marked for Death is purely optional, but it is neet to have, you just have to choose between the other mediocre talents, it's probably meant to be that way so everyone can have a tiny feeling of individuality while still having nearly the same DPS.

That's my problem with the entire Marks tree right now. You have to take a LOT of 'optional' talents to hit 31 points. You have to spec into Marked For Death, four points worth of stupid pet talents, a bad AoE talent (Serpent Spread is so much better). Oh, and three points are required to make your tree's signature shot usable. Well, one point but you can't get Chim without 3/3 Master Marksman.

Marked For Death is garbage. Just like half the points you need to take to get to Chimera Shot, it's so situational it's not even funny.

[Foibles]

What would you take for pve instead? Resistence is Futile seems too low a chance outside of a constant kite boss like Grobbulus, and Rapid Killing/ Concussive Barrage won't work on bosses. That leaves Silencing Shot and an extra point.

In pve and pvp it will help quick burst target switches at least.

[Highwind]

We as hunters like that Marked for Death can't be dispelled, but if you think about it that change was really a nerf in a way. If we could reapply it to a target in PvP with 2 of our 3 main shots it would mask DoT etc so well it was overpowered to the dispeller trying to get the DoTs off his team mate. We would have covered targets with magic trash debuffs so well.

I mean I like it both ways, but its funny that undispellablity is always listed as a perk when it can go either way.

--------

Side note, the Arcane Mage talent Nether Vortex kinda makes our Marked for Death look like crap, but I guess that is more a function of Slow being amazing, vs just giving attack power, but oh well.

Nether Vortex (2 ranks)
Gives your Arcane Blast spell a 50/100% chance to apply the Slow spell to any target it damages if no target is currently affected by Slow.

[Foibles]

2 points in Rapid Killing for trash and adds, without hesitation.

http://wowtal.com/#k=-bfjwj6.a2y.hunter

Trash fine, but RK still requires you land the killing blow, which is a pretty big hurdle, especially against DoT classes and fast attackers like Rogues/Enhance/DW Frost.

[Moyotoshi]

What would you take for pvpe instead? Resistence is Futile seems too low a chance outside of a constant kite boss like Grobbulus, and Rapid Killing/ Concussive Barrage won't work on bosses. That leaves Silencing Shot and an extra point.

In pve and pvp it will help quick burst target switches at least.

Exactly. "What else would you take?" as a means to validating taking a talent is the same as voting John Kerry because he's "not Bush." MM is full of boring talents. The static bonus for speccing MM is boring. The mastery is good. The special shot you get for doing so is garbage unless you get a full MM stack.

Meanwhile, Survival is loaded with viable damage increasing talents (even Resourcefulness is better than Marked For Death and the MM pet garbage) and a great bonus just for speccing into it. That doesn't even take into account how the SV playstyle is more engaging.

[Drakoes]

What a stupid talent tbh, it saves you one GCD which is pathetic for 1v1 encounters and even when switching, it's not that great either since the GCD is only 1 second now - what's the point? I bet even latency will cover that up.

[Cyph3r]

I have to disagree with these boring talents comments. The vast majority of the talents in all 3 trees are along the lines of "when you do X, you have a chance to increase your damage via Y.". Such talents provide specialization, because they boost each trees damage in a specific area. But each tree really only has a couple of genuinely unique talents that grant an interesting secondary effect or unique skill. Marked for death is one such talent. It allows a Marksman to be more dangerous with ranged attacks when fighting multiple targets when time is a factor (like some boss fights or pvp).

Also:

What a stupid talent tbh, it saves you one GCD which is pathetic for 1v1 encounters and even when switching, it's not that great either since the GCD is only 1 second now - what's the point? I bet even latency will cover that up.

Seriously? 1 second is 1000ms latency. If you've got that much lag you shouldn't be raiding anyway.

[Logickal]

What would you take for pve instead? Resistence is Futile seems too low a chance outside of a constant kite boss like Grobbulus, and Rapid Killing/ Concussive Barrage won't work on bosses. That leaves Silencing Shot and an extra point.

In pve and pvp it will help quick burst target switches at least.

i've mentioned before that RiF procs off target dummies (dont ask me how or why it just does from what ive tried on ptr) but im assuming that even if u just turn the boss like 1 degree its gonna proc which doesnt sound to bad to me...

this is just speculation btw

[Moyotoshi]

Moyo: That is not true, many specs have 'free' points that they can put in anything they want.
I always hated this in WotLK where I had ZERO free choice.

That's true, the whole 'you must spec this way or get laughed at' aspect has always bugged me. Unfortunately, the new design philosophy is 'choose between these lackluster filler talents so you can get deeper into the tree,' which I find equally as frustrating. These 'filler' points don't feel like utility, they feel like wasted talent points. I remember leveling, thinking every level 'alright, next level I get X talent it's gonna be awesome!' In Cata, the talents are already down to every other level, and depending on spec (Marks in particular) half of those levels will just feel bland. Rather than 'Sweet, gonna get something cool next level!' we have 'Well, maybe two levels from now I'll be excited about this spec.'

But you are right that MM has a lot of boring talents, MM was always the 'boring' tree since it didn't had anything special.
In interesting things it could never compete with Explosive Shot or improved pets.

I thought MM was pretty interesting in WotLK. Not as unforgiving as Survival, but it required a lot of practice and skill to really shine. Survival requires a lot of awareness, it makes for better raiders than MM.

---------- Post added 2010-10-06 at 05:55 AM ----------

I have to disagree with these boring talents comments. The vast majority of the talents in all 3 trees are along the lines of "when you do X, you have a chance to increase your damage via Y.". Such talents provide specialization, because they boost each trees damage in a specific area.

The difference between MM and the other two specs is that MM has a higher concentration of 'boring' or 'situational' talents. Survival has Imp Serpent/Serpent Spread. Pretty much every other talent you can take is a fairly potent damage increase useful in any situation. BM, likewise only has two real 'filler' points that go in either Spirit Bond, Pathfinding or Crouching Tiger. Everything else is geared toward increasing damage. Marksmanship, on the other hand, has to take 4 points worth of talents that only activate during the opening and end phase, two points of incredibly situational utility (MfD is not even really good on trash packs since it doesn't proc off Multi-Shot) and probably 4 points of pet focus management that should have been in the BM tree. Personally, I would have put those + RiF in BM, moved Pathfinding and Crouching Tiger to Survival and filled in the gaps in MM with something proc-like for a different Marksman skill. Even something like 'When you crit twice in a row with Arcane Shot, you reset the cooldown of Chimera Shot and reduce its focus cost and damage by 25% for 5 seconds.' would have been a lot more exciting.

[Deepfriedegg]

Marked For Death is garbage. It's so situational it's not even funny.

MfD is not garbage for any boss fight that includes adds. It's not situational it's not even funny

---------- Post added 2010-10-06 at 10:06 AM ----------

What a stupid talent tbh, it saves you one GCD which is pathetic for 1v1 encounters and even when switching, it's not that great either since the GCD is only 1 second now - what's the point? I bet even latency will cover that up.

Poor comment. This is not meant for 1v1 encounters (whether you mean PvP or PvE) because in that case you will always pre-cast normal HM. It is designed for situation where you switch targets. And it saves you 2cds at least (swith to add and then switch back to boss)

---------- Post added 2010-10-06 at 10:12 AM ----------

2 points in Rapid Killing for trash and adds, without hesitation.

http://wowtal.com/#k=-bfjwj6.a2y.hunter

Are you aware of the fact that you need to deal KILLING BLOW to the mob to actually benefit from this talent?

---------- Post added 2010-10-06 at 10:15 AM ----------

I strongly disagree with almost any Moyotoshi's post, his view of entire hunter class seems very perverted to me. But then again, opinions are like assholes - everybody's got one.
On the other hand, I would sign Cyph3r's

[Moyotoshi]

I strongly disagree with almost any Moyotoshi's post, his view of entire hunter class seems very perverted to me. But then again, opinions are like assholes - everybody's got one.

I'm really not sure how 'MM feels boring to me' and 'too many situational talents' is perverted. I didn't even mention how dull I think the 'bonuses' you get for speccing MM are.

[Deepfriedegg]

I'm really not sure how 'MM feels boring to me' and 'too many situational talents' is perverted. I didn't even mention how dull I think the 'bonuses' you get for speccing MM are.

You clearly havent written only those two sentences. I´m fine with MM feeling boring to you, it is your opinion. However, you complain about having picked all possible DPS talents in your tree + the ability to pick up some utility talents... In Wrath I couldnt pick ANY utility talent without sacrificing at least a bit of DPS.

You are picking sentences out of context and dont respect the rules of rational argument. Please, dont reply to my post, as I will not reply on yours, either

[Moyotoshi]

You clearly havent written only those two sentences. I´m fine with MM feeling boring to you, it is your opinion. However, you complain about having picked all possible DPS talents in your tree + the ability to pick up some utility talents... In Wrath I couldnt pick ANY utility talent without sacrificing at least a bit of DPS.

You are picking sentences out of context and dont respect the rules of rational argument. Please, dont reply to my post, as I will not reply on yours, either

On the contrary, I am simply boiling my argument down to a few statements that I expanded on earlier. Those two sentences are the basic core of my view on Cataclysm Marksmanship.

Furthermore, 'picking sentences out of context' hardly seems like a valid argument to somebody quoting their own statements.

Anyhow, this entire argument is misplaced in a thread about one specific talent.

[Cyph3r]

The difference between MM and the other two specs is that MM has a higher concentration of 'boring' or 'situational' talents. Survival has Imp Serpent/Serpent Spread. Pretty much every other talent you can take is a fairly potent damage increase useful in any situation. BM, likewise only has two real 'filler' points that go in either Spirit Bond, Pathfinding or Crouching Tiger. Everything else is geared toward increasing damage. Marksmanship, on the other hand, has to take 4 points worth of talents that only activate during the opening and end phase, two points of incredibly situational utility (MfD is not even really good on trash packs since it doesn't proc off Multi-Shot) and probably 4 points of pet focus management that should have been in the BM tree. Personally, I would have put those + RiF in BM, moved Pathfinding and Crouching Tiger to Survival and filled in the gaps in MM with something proc-like for a different Marksman skill. Even something like 'When you crit twice in a row with Arcane Shot, you reset the cooldown of Chimera Shot and reduce its focus cost and damage by 25% for 5 seconds.' would have been a lot more exciting.

Improved serpent sting doesn't apply to the serpent sting effect portion of serpent spread, and serpent spread is NOT useful in any situation, it's only useful against large packs of mobs (especially considering the SrS effect is lessened via serpent spread). Explain to me how entrapment, survival tactics, counterattack, mirrored blades and wyvern sting are "fairly potent damage increase useful in any situation"?

Furthermore, serpent spread just helps kill large add packs faster by putting a short dot up on them, whereas bombardment in the MM tree grants a similar bonus (that being killing mob packs faster), they just do it in their own unique way. It's like I said, it's the same thing, just presented in a different package. All 3 specs have talents that are really good, every once in a while. That's kind of the whole idea. I still don't think that MM is at some disadvantage talent-wise, you've still failed to convince me otherwise.