Flexible Raid Lock System in 4.0.1

[Zippy]

tl;dr - R.I.P. 10man raiding unless all you do is do 10mans or alt runs.

Um... Wrong.

[Kyndig]

Well this sucks!

[Tziva]

I would like to know how this impacts extensions.

Hypothetical:

A raid is working on HM25 Sindragosa, and is extending each lockout to get more time on her. They run Fridays. On Wednesday, a handful of raid members run a 10man on regular and do not kill Sindragosa. The raid leader himself does not run any raids before Friday, and extends his prior 10/12 hard mode ID. Those ten members could still join the extended raid, right? But if they did any hard modes on their 10, or if they killed Sindragosa, they could not?

[Cymorìl]

This sucks...

In this way if I want to raid in ICC 10 to get Glory Of The Icecrown Raider 10m achiev, for example, I can't go on 25 man raid with the rest of the guild... Did I miss something?

[Herecius]

Holy shit, I love you Blizzard. This is flawless. For people who only do normal modes and pugs, raiding gets simplified and totally possible without a guild, and for those who prefer the hardcore setting of being married to a heroic raid, then they are locked into that and can't split it up into other raids.

This is fantastic. The perfect solution to a problem that didn't seem to have a solution.

[thatguy181]

Seems like a waste of time and effort making the system work with WotLK raids if the raids continue to have different loot tables.

[Tokru]

this part is just fail:

"If your Heroic 25-player raid defeats the first four bosses of Icecrown Citadel on Heroic, then they may not split up into two 10-player raids and continue to fight in Heroic difficulty."


why does it work on normal and not heroic?

[Zerbe]

this part is just fail:

"If your Heroic 25-player raid defeats the first four bosses of Icecrown Citadel on Heroic, then they may not split up into two 10-player raids and continue to fight in Heroic difficulty."


why does it work on normal and not heroic?

Once you a do heroic, you're then locked to doing heroics in that raid size.

[Racetrack]

Interesting.

For pugs this is double-sided sword.
Either it can do good, or it can harm.

i bet they`ll tune it down/up

Harm i imagine. People kill the first boss. Wipe a couple of times on the second boss. Now instead of them committing to stay or they would be locked for the entire week, they'll just leave and find another group with 1 boss down.

[Naylol]

Why this flexible raidlockout system will suck:

Scenario 1: A pug player joins a raid that fails after 2 bosses, the player now has to join a raid that has killed at least 2. Now how often does that happen?

Scenario 2: A guilded raider joins a pug because he missed the first raid of the week with his guild, he leaves the raid as soon as the pug killed the bosses that his guild did.

So the only people that benefit from it are raids that lose players and can now take people that did the first few bosses of a raid. Woopidoo.

[Tokru]

Once you a do heroic, you're then locked to doing heroics in that raid size.

and why only on hardmode? the usual normal mode scum is free to change their size per boss....

[sidebar]

I would like to know how this impacts extensions.

Hypothetical:

A raid is working on HM25 Sindragosa, and is extending each lockout... a handful of raid members run a 10man on regular and do not kill Sindragosa. The raid leader himself does not run any raids before Friday, and extends his prior 10/12 hard mode ID. Those ten members could still join the extended raid, right? But if they did any hard modes on their 10, or if they killed Sindragosa, they could not?

Not sure how the "extensions" work, but if you take that part out, I believe the answer is: Yes.

ie:
Raid A does Icc10 10/12 on normal.
Raid B does Icc25 10/12 on heroic.

Raid A can join Raid B, regardless.
Raid B can join Raid A, and do the last 2 bosses on normal.

That is how I am reading it.

I am guessing that Extended ID's will *forget* who was originally in them and just resolve for "can this person join based upon this weeks ID's?" and will allow your scenario to work. Just guessing on the extended though, it's really not been made clear yet.

[blackangel209]

Here's the big question they didn't address:

Are they normalizing loot as well? It would only make sense considering they are locking you to both 10 and 25? It almost eliminates the desire to go to pug 10s if a persons only chance at marks is in 25 man

They didn't address this here because it was addressed months ago. 10M and 25M loot will be the same. H10M and H25M will be the same.

[Dvaldin]

I wish I worked at Bliz. The simple version of this would be "Each player can only loot each boss once per week regardless of raid size or difficulty." That is the solution I've been suggesting since day 1. This would allow people to raid with whatever friends they want, whenever they want. And never HAVE to raid more than once for the sake of min/maxing progression. They're half way there. Maybe someday they'll figure it out.

min/maxing will still occur on alts

[Scripts]

Actually, I think you could turn on Heroic at that point, based upon what was posted. You join a group with 24 other people that have not downed a boss on heroic, you, as the newly appointed RL and keeper of the sacred heroic raid ID should be able to turn Heroic bosses on / off from that point forward as long as nobody else has a heroic boss id for that run.

Right? at least that is how I read it. You just can't *mix* heroic boss id's. I am starting to think of it as an STD in that you can share your STD with others that don't have an STD yet, you just can't share yours with others that have their own STD :-)

But the ID is created when the first boss is downed, so you weren't there for the creation of the "Second" ID. The RL has the ID created from the regular Marrowgar kill, and you are tagged to an id with a heroic marrowgar kill, so your heroic id trumps any other IDs you join. If your heroic ID and your RL's ID doesn't match up, then no heroic modes for the group you joined. It almost seems like there's 1 comparision points in the background for heroic modes, and a secondary comparision point for bosses.

IE:

Heroics: Same Raid ID as Leader Y/N -> If Y, Heroic enabled, If N, no heroics modes possible

Bosses Dead: Do you have More or Less of the bosses dead than the RL? -> Less, you can join, More, you can't join. Make All Players' Raid Bosses Dead flags = after next boss kill (IE: The You've killed first 4 bosses, Pug has killed 6, You help pug kill PP, you've now killed 7 bosses because now your "bosses killed" flag matches the RL's flag, without fighting Rot/Fester yourself example in the blue posts)

[Jokerjesus]

tl;dr - R.I.P. 10man raiding unless all you do is do 10mans or alt runs.

More like RIP 25 man, I hate raiding with 25 people half of them are always idiots, 10 man is where its at. So you get more gear as a whole with 25 big deal? Id rather not get my piece and actually finish the dungeon than have a wipefest with retards.

[lookerr]

I looked forward to this change in Cata, but it screws things up for ICC and RS currently since you cant run 10 and 25 on the same toon the same week the way ppl currently do

[sidebar]

Why this flexible raidlockout system will suck:

Scenario 1: A pug player joins a raid that fails after 2 bosses, the player now has to join a raid that has killed at least 2. Now how often does that happen?

Quit a bit actually and it will go up. Take 4/12 runs. Lot of runs die when X number of people bail after DBW doesn't drop. You can now take two 4/12 groups and make one 4/12 from the remnants ... and btw, that 2/12 from your example decides to get in on the 4/12 and skip those 2 bosses.

Scenario 2: A guilded raider joins a pug because he missed the first raid of the week with his guild, he leaves the raid as soon as the pug killed the bosses that his guild did.

So you replace that one guy ... what's the big deal? Your pool of players that *can* fill will be larger and the pool of players that *will* fill in will be larger.

So the only people that benefit from it are raids that lose players and can now take people that did the first few bosses of a raid. Woopidoo.

Sorta ... if your runs *never* lose people (DC, Emergency, birthday, etc) then this will *never* benefit you. But, with the new changes more players will be more willing (and able) to actually join raids in progress and that is a good think all around.

[deviancee]

You may also not join someone else's raid if they have defeated a Heroic encounter.

SO if im raiding 10 man and 1 person dcs then i can not take anyone to have full 10 man raid again ?

[Deleted]

I dont get it.. what happens If I have killed all bosses except for the first boss and I join a raid where they are doing all bosses..
Will i be kicked when they go at boss 2?
Or can i stay and help but not loot?