Legendaries will drop in 10 mans in Cataclysm

[Wiyld]

I sure hope so, I'll be pretty pissed if we see a significant number of 25 man guilds drop down to running 2-3 10 mans just because they can then farm the hell out of legendaries.

[Imnick]

I sure hope so, I'll be pretty pissed if we see a significant number of 25 man guilds drop down to running 2-3 10 mans just because they can then farm the hell out of legendaries.

I think they'll be more concerned about the fact that more of every other kind of gear drops in 25 man, so they'll be dropping down to running one 25 man group just because they can farm the hell out of the gear that everyone needs and not just three classes.

[Wiyld]

3 classes? The next legendary is a caster staff. That means Mages, Locks, Druids, Shammies, Priests and..... I'm pretty sure palies cant use a staff. So half the classes can use it? An intelligent guild would be able to organize the 10 mans to have as little gear competition in each group in order to maximize the loot potential. I love how everyone keeps sayin 'but more loot drops in 25' well yeah, but does more loot drop in 1 25 man then in 3 10 mans?

If 1 25 man does drop more loot them 3 10 mans, then I think it is safe to say that it won't take very long at all to gear out a raid, give it 2 months, and then your in 3 10 mans farming legendaries for everyone.

Speculative? Yes. Am I concerned? Clearly.

[Ugadin]

10 mans can get everything that 25 mans can in Cata, including shared Server First titles.

Yeah too bad its been said that they wont give titles in Cata.

---------- Post added 2010-10-08 at 10:01 PM ----------

Paladins cannot use staffs either.

[Imnick]

3 classes? The next legendary is a caster staff. That means Mages, Locks, Druids, Shammies, Priests and..... I'm pretty sure palies cant use a staff. So half the classes can use it? An intelligent guild would be able to organize the 10 mans to have as little gear competition in each group in order to maximize the loot potential. I love how everyone keeps sayin 'but more loot drops in 25' well yeah, but does more loot drop in 1 25 man then in 3 10 mans?

If 1 25 man does drop more loot them 3 10 mans, then I think it is safe to say that it won't take very long at all to gear out a raid, give it 2 months, and then your in 3 10 mans farming legendaries for everyone.

Speculative? Yes. Am I concerned? Clearly.

3 classes was exaggeration and not meant to be taken literally. It's quite a common literary technique, you should look it up some time.
It's pretty safe to say though that a guild is NOT going to piss of 24 of its members splitting into more groups and decreasing everyone else's drop rate to please just ONE of its other members by getting them a faster legendary.
They will pick the option that gets THE ENTIRE RAID INCLUDING THE GUY GETTING THE LEGENDARY their best in slot gear faster.

Or at least that seems obvious to me.

Perhaps when everyone in the raid needs no loot at all from an instance apart from the legendary they might start doing 10 mans instead, but honestly how likely is that?
And as I said, if 25 mans drop more emblems and more gear it is not a vast stretch of the imagination to guess that they will also drop more legendary quest items.

Does more loot drop in one 25 man than three ten mans? Maybe not (although I'd think that actually, probably yes, Blizzard aren't stupid), but you're now dividing the loot across an additional five people that you don't even need, and might as well then just kick 20 people and go raid ten man all the time. And then you will be getting less loot per person so you will go back to doing 25 man.

Tl;dr you are worrying about nothing.
Wait until the actual information is out there before you start panicking about how imabalanced 10 man raids are.

[Keristrasza]

well mind something, 10 and 25 with the same boss difficulty means that 10man we'll be a bit harder due to that u have to put more effort on raid setup, which class to bring etc, although blizz tries to fix this (bloodlust from mages for example). in a world (of warcraft) with 10 and 25 in the same difficulty people choosing 10 man deserve the same loot.

Either that or 25 will be easier. Either way I do like the idea it now gives the 10/25 normal raids the same difficulty (Aka same mechanics for both fight nothing extra hard in 25) and lets "hardcores" have their crazy hard heroic raids. I finally won't feel stupid for wanting to stay with 10mans.

[Horph]

Legendaries are long from being legendary anyway, so nothing changes. The biggest scrubs are running around with shadowmourne these days, even alts.

[ryuke09]

i think A LOT of the QQing from this is based on the complete asumption that.

1. legendaries will be a regular drop % (like in BC, the only lousy thing about raiding)

OR

2. if you know that legendarys will probably still be "crafted" through a quest chain. you assume that the process is exactly like other legendary and NOT tailored to the cataclysm raid design that is so much more different than in the past.

with 10 and 25 (heroic logically) having legendarys the old model of gathering 30-40some fragments as the main bulk of the quest may or may not be used in cataclysm raids. the 25 "more loot PER PERSON" doesn't factor in here because only one person is going to be working towards the quest.

personally i do hope blizzard changes the old model because gathering 40 fragments of orange item X is getting a bit bland.

[AlexGrey]

yay!

I concur.

[Imnick]

personally i do hope blizzard changes the old model because gathering 40 fragments of orange item X is getting a bit bland.

But it's cataclysm!
That's the theme of the expansion!
Deathwing has broken everything and we need to fix it all!
Breaks planet, breaks elemental planes, breaks legendary weapons!

[Deleted]

Apparently the 25mans will start having their downfalls. It seems to me that 10mans in the next summer will be the number one choise for guilds.

[Volitar]

Ten man will never be as hard as 25s for the soul reason that coordinating 25 people is harder than 10

[Imnick]

Ten man will never be as hard as 25s for the soul reason that coordinating 25 people is harder than 10

Lose a guy in 25 man and you've lost 4% of your raid.
Lose a guy in 10 man and you've lose 10% of your raid, or 1.5x more people.

Both have their own pros and cons, and if Blizzard tune it right it's going to go down to a boss by boss comparison for which one is easier. For fights with a lot of positioning and void zones 25 man might be harder, for fights with higher dependencies on individual performance and survival, 10 man will be harder.

[Wiyld]

Let me do some math for you, don't worry its simple addition, you ought to be able to keep up.

For the sake of conversation lets assume 10 mans drop 2 items per boss kill.

So a guild that drops 25 mans, picks up 5 alternates and forms 3 10 mans will see 6 drops per boss. So in order to 'drop more loot' in 25 man will we see 6-7 items per 25 man boss kill?

Ok, lets say 10 mans only drop 1 item per kill. 3 10 mans means 3 items per boss, HEY that's what drops in 25 now!! So, in order to 'drop more loot' in 25 we will need at least 4 per kill. So 1 more then we already see now and as we all know its easy as hell to gear up as it is.

Lets say said guild decided not to pick anyone up, they only want to run 2 10 mans. Again 2 drops per boss means 4 items per boss. Will 25 man drop 5 items per boss? Doesn't that feel excessive? Or will 10 mans be back at 1 drop per boss and 25 will drop 3 in order to drop more?

OOOOOR we could look at it on a 'drops per player' basis


3 raids - 10 man
2 drops per boss = 6 items
6/30 = 20% chance at an item ( im going to assume here that everyone wants everything )

1 raid - 25 man
7 items drop in order to stay above the 10 mans
7/25 = 28% chance at an item


3 raids -10 man
1 item per boss = 3 items
3/30 = 10% chance at an item

25 man - 1 raid
4 items per boss
4/25 = 16% chance at an item

Like I said, I know I'm speculating, but the logic seems pretty solid. If your guild is intelligent about grouping you have very little competition in each 10 man over loot, and if the groups can maintain a relatively similar rate of progress through the instance you can even trade players between the groups as needed for particular encounters and everyone gets to see every fight. Clearly as my math showed 25 man will grant a better chance at an item then 10 man will, this is a pretty rough way of figuring that given the fact that there will never be a full raid rolling on the same item. In reality most items see 4-5 rolls at the most. The most significant point I am trying to get across here is the potential for an insane amount of loot being thrown at us. Gearing in LK was ridiculously fast, it takes almost no time to get a toon very very well geared and if they actually make 25 mans drop more loot then multiple 10 mans would we are going to be finished with content far far faster then blizz is ready to release more.

[Plasmon]

Ten man will never be as hard as 25s for the soul reason that coordinating 25 people is harder than 10

Hard for the raid leader and hard for the average raider are two very different things. Clearly a 25 man is much more frustrating for the raid leader to deal with than 10, but that doesn't say anything about the difficulty the other 24 people feel.

The impact of one person in 10 man is far higher than that same person in a 25 man raid. Lose one person in a 10 man on a progression fight, especially a tank or healer and it's probably a wipe. Lose one on a 25 man? Likely not a big deal because there are enough others of similar role to cover for it.

[Deleted]

There are less people who want a specific legendary in a 10 man than a 25 man, and more chance of getting a legendary per person in 10 man.

The drop rate in 25 man for legendary related drops needs to be 2.5x better than in 10 man or it's going to be imbalanced basically.