Ret bringing all the haste in Cata?

[Mmrdkm]

So Ghostfaced ... you are posting your 10th post to call us on being a bit aggressive after a prolonged argument where one of the parts just plainly ignored the other and used name calling. Your contribution to this thread sir? if i may ask?

OT. So yeah! homogenization has hit us all!
Stat weights have changed and Haste seems to be king right after Strength. No haste raid buff for palies, but we do get a juicy 100% uptime 9% selfish haste buff.

Rebuke even though not "mandatory" is definitive improvement to our toolbox, specially since off healing is now a complete nerf to our dps.

Numbers are not set, and they could use an improvement, not only for us, but all melee clases. And we are all clamoring for smoother mechanics, being that we are getting closer to release, yet ret still feels like a slot machine in vegas. Unless you got enormous amounts of haste to even out the odds, or rather push them off the table.

Yay or nay?

[Pickwickman]

I know, I overreacted Sindy's post, but he/she was blatantly trolling while I was stating the obvious.

Btw, this thread has become very, very mod heavy. You should probably close it though, it is gone offtopic.

OT: The Haste being awesome for Paladins is also the case for Warriors and DK's to an extent.

I think all the plate classes will reforge into Haste, because Blizzard has made it our best stat to go. Unlike crit, which for warriors at the moment in appropiate gear is 7-8%, and I imagine it is the same for paladins.

Rebuke is something we have asked from Blizzard for ages, just so we have it. It may not be overly useful at the moment, but as far as we have seen Cata heroics and normals will require it, even intensively so.

[Ghostfaced]

So Ghostfaced ... you are posting your 10th post to call us on being a bit aggressive after a prolonged argument where one of the parts just plainly ignored the other and used name calling. Your contribution to this thread sir? if i may ask?

OT. So yeah! homogenization has hit us all!
Stat weights have changed and Haste seems to be king right after Strength. No haste raid buff for palies, but we do get a juicy 100% uptime 9% selfish haste buff.

Rebuke even though not "mandatory" is definitive improvement to our toolbox, specially since off healing is now a complete nerf to our dps.

Numbers are not set, and they could use an improvement, not only for us, but all melee clases. And we are all clamoring for smoother mechanics, being that we are getting closer to release, yet ret still feels like a slot machine in vegas. Unless you got enormous amounts of haste to even out the odds, or rather push them off the table.

Yay or nay?

It seemed prolonged more than it should have been. Fact of the matter is not all the trolls got banned. You and Pickwickman and maybe more? i don't know i didn't read most of this. Mostly the last 2 pages. My contribution is not unlike yours. Saw a hot topic and stuck my nose in, but at least i did it constructively.

[Badpaladin]

Saw it coming a mile away.

Anyways, I think we were talking about raid utility?

[Hexme]

I know, I overreacted Sindy's post, but he/she was blatantly trolling while I was stating the obvious.

Btw, this thread has become very, very mod heavy. You should probably close it though, it is gone offtopic.

OT: The Haste being awesome for Paladins is also the case for Warriors and DK's to an extent.

I think all the plate classes will reforge into Haste, because Blizzard has made it our best stat to go. Unlike crit, which for warriors at the moment in appropiate gear is 7-8%, and I imagine it is the same for paladins.

Rebuke is something we have asked from Blizzard for ages, just so we have it. It may not be overly useful at the moment, but as far as we have seen Cata heroics and normals will require it, even intensively so.

Think i said this earlier but its basically gonna be Str > Haste > Crit (after hit and expertise cap).

Kind of just thinking out of the box, but i would imagine the sweet spot for paladins and haste will probably be around 800-900. Think on the ptr i'm at around 500 and i havent reforged to haste, been trying the mastery stuff.

[Mmrdkm]

It seemed prolonged more than it should have been. Fact of the matter is not all the trolls got banned. You and Pickwickman and maybe more? i don't know i didn't read most of this. Mostly the last 2 pages. My contribution is not unlike yours. Saw a hot topic and stuck my nose in, but at least i did it constructively.

my contribution to this topic is visible through all the thread tks, i dont just troll, that would be a waste of time, but i dont like being belittled by anyone because i fail to support their argument, which was obviously flawed, in light of the new design developers want to take the game into.
And by your own statement, maybe you should read the whole thread to better understand how this events developed. The last 2 pages barely show why people got so upset and resorted to less than civil ways of responding to it.
I got to say i might not have responded in the best of ways, but name calling is not what i do, nor is it pointing at armories, etc.
I'm still waiting for your contribution, maybe i could get you interested in replying to my last post, regarding the on topic part??

[iktankniet]

It seemed prolonged more than it should have been. Fact of the matter is not all the trolls got banned. You and Pickwickman and maybe more? i don't know i didn't read most of this. Mostly the last 2 pages. My contribution is not unlike yours. Saw a hot topic and stuck my nose in, but at least i did it constructively.

the only thing you should be posting is the matter of the topic, nothing else. you are starting the whole story yet again.

[Ronark]

Think i said this earlier but its basically gonna be Str > Haste > Crit (after hit and expertise cap).

Kind of just thinking out of the box, but i would imagine the sweet spot for paladins and haste will probably be around 800-900. Think on the ptr i'm at around 500 and i havent reforged to haste, been trying the mastery stuff.

STR > Hit cap > Exp cap > Haste > Mastery = Crit > All the other stats

Sadly, STR is still overtaking Hit by a factor of 2, much like how it was when WotLK was released.

[Hexme]

STR > Hit cap > Exp cap > Haste > Mastery = Crit > All the other stats

Sadly, STR is still overtaking Hit by a factor of 2, much like how it was when WotLK was released.

Hmm is hit and expertise still the same as it was in wotlk?, also wonder what the haste cap is gonna be for paladins.

[Requital]

STR > Hit cap > Exp cap > Haste > Mastery = Crit > All the other stats

Sadly, STR is still overtaking Hit by a factor of 2, much like how it was when WotLK was released.

I Still don't agree with this, I was topping meters in Naxx and Ulduar/Sartharion and I was hit capped but not expertise cap because we had Seal of Blood back then. I still find it had to believe that ignoring hit in favor for Strength will turn out better then capping hit which is a joke and very easy to do.

[Mmrdkm]

STR > Hit cap > Exp cap > Haste > Mastery = Crit > All the other stats

Sadly, STR is still overtaking Hit by a factor of 2, much like how it was when WotLK was released.

Is there a point where, after hit/exp cap, haste would be equal to strength, or be better than strenght, within the realm of the possible?

I guess my question is how much haste would it take to make it better than strength in dps output being that CS/TV are based of weapon dmg, as well as it increasing our white swings and dots, etc.

[Ronark]

I Still don't agree with this, I was topping meters in Naxx and Ulduar/Sartharion and I was hit capped but not expertise cap because we had Seal of Blood back then. I still find it had to believe that ignoring hit in favor for Strength will turn out better then capping hit which is a joke and very easy to do.

I think it is because of the rawr scaling of Strength compared to Hit.

Is there a point where, after hit/exp cap, haste would be equal to strength, or be better than strenght, within the realm of the possible?

I guess my question is how much haste would it take to make it better than strength in dps output being that CS/TV are based of weapon dmg, as well as it increasing our white swings and dots, etc.

Probably never (in current context), since Strength affects everything where Haste does not. Using the values so far, you would need more than 14 haste per 1 point of Strength for haste to be better.

[Requital]

I think it is because of the rawr scaling of Strength compared to Hit.



Probably never (in current context), since Strength affects everything where Haste does not. Using the values so far, you would need more than 14 haste per 1 point of Strength for haste to be better.

Oh I agree the scaling just not over hit, If you aren't hitting you aren't doing damage.

[Pickwickman]

It seemed prolonged more than it should have been. Fact of the matter is not all the trolls got banned. You and Pickwickman and maybe more? i don't know i didn't read most of this. Mostly the last 2 pages. My contribution is not unlike yours. Saw a hot topic and stuck my nose in, but at least i did it constructively.

Did you even read my posts mate? I have been very constructive.

Btw, Hexme, I think it is like you propose, only we should see at which levels the caps come into an intersection so maybe haste is good at our t11. but that could very well shift to crit if we get a heftier amount of it.

Edit: now that I have read everything, I hope Blizzard fixes that we value strength over everything, because that would make gearing rediculously simple, I love jugling caps on my gear, it makes you a better player if you can get a perfect gear set-up.

This is also the reason I am sad to see defence gone, the juggling of it in lower tier gear is one of the things that makes me wet myself everytime I gear a new tank.

[Lyese]

Did you even read my posts mate? I have been very constructive.

Btw, Hexme, I think it is like you propose, only we should see at which levels the caps come into an intersection so maybe haste is good at our t11. but that could very well shift to crit if we get a heftier amount of it.

Edit: now that I have read everything, I hope Blizzard fixes that we value strength over everything, because that would make gearing rediculously simple, I love jugling caps on my gear, it makes you a better player if you can get a perfect gear set-up.

This is also the reason I am sad to see defence gone, the juggling of it in lower tier gear is one of the things that makes me wet myself everytime I gear a new tank.

Def is gone because it inflated avoidance values and made it harder for lower levels to tank. The transition from Outland to Northrend dungeons is especially brutal for fresh travelers esp since they're just barely seeing a marginal amount of Def on gear. I do agree that "hurr durr" stat weights for Ret should be dealt with, but a simple nerf to STR would have to be compensated elsewhere since it's pretty all encompassing (by nerf to STR, I mean by % scaling and whatnot, not an actual nerf to the ap ratio).

I've been following the topic mostly because I've posted here and there on it, and I'll only make these two comments. I'm going to assume we're all likely adults and should act mature. Arguing/calling names over something like a video game is pretty petty. That also extends to our mods. If you don't agree with a mod's decision, PM him or another mod and get it sorted it. Trying to get it "out in the open" and calling him out doesn't look good on yourself, and ultimately it's the collective their decision. I've been a member for a long time, although I rarely post until lately, and I must say that our mods have gone a long way. Chronalis especially has really become a strong member and a much better poster, and I respect his opinions and decisions.

[Requital]

Did you even read my posts mate? I have been very constructive.

Btw, Hexme, I think it is like you propose, only we should see at which levels the caps come into an intersection so maybe haste is good at our t11. but that could very well shift to crit if we get a heftier amount of it.

Edit: now that I have read everything, I hope Blizzard fixes that we value strength over everything, because that would make gearing rediculously simple, I love jugling caps on my gear, it makes you a better player if you can get a perfect gear set-up.

This is also the reason I am sad to see defence gone, the juggling of it in lower tier gear is one of the things that makes me wet myself everytime I gear a new tank.

Until we have a reason to crit the stat won't take priority on anything else.

[Pickwickman]

Until we have a reason to crit the stat won't take priority on anything else.

Yeah, I guess you are right at that point, but a point could be reached that made us GCD capped and made us favor Crit more or equal to Haste in effective DPS increase. I am not a theorycrafter per sé, I only do some napkin math, so I can't even back my statement up.

---------- Post added 2010-10-06 at 11:36 AM ----------

Def is gone because it inflated avoidance values and made it harder for lower levels to tank. The transition from Outland to Northrend dungeons is especially brutal for fresh travelers esp since they're just barely seeing a marginal amount of Def on gear. I do agree that "hurr durr" stat weights for Ret should be dealt with, but a simple nerf to STR would have to be compensated elsewhere since it's pretty all encompassing (by nerf to STR, I mean by % scaling and whatnot, not an actual nerf to the ap ratio).

I've been following the topic mostly because I've posted here and there on it, and I'll only make these two comments. I'm going to assume we're all likely adults and should act mature. Arguing/calling names over something like a video game is pretty petty. That also extends to our mods. If you don't agree with a mod's decision, PM him or another mod and get it sorted it. Trying to get it "out in the open" and calling him out doesn't look good on yourself, and ultimately it's the collective their decision. I've been a member for a long time, although I rarely post until lately, and I must say that our mods have gone a long way. Chronalis especially has really become a strong member and a much better poster, and I respect his opinions and decisions.

I know this, but I liked the way we needed to juggle it everytime we began raiding in a particular expansion, kinda like Hit/Exp caps. But I do agree, it wasn't the best stat ever, and once you gained fairly good tanking gear you would almost always have a surplus of +Def doing nothing. And it actually was not brutal, you just needed the cheap and easy to make Cobalt Gear, hell I had more problems with TBC normals than Wrath normals while levelling my DK and Paladin but that could also be accounted for by the fact that the players weren't used to TBC instances.

Also, you cannot go out and blatantly nerf the effectiveness of strength, you could however make it more punishable to lose an attack, maybe even cranking our HP generation down so that we need the EXP and HIT, but that would be hard to do as you would at that point force Prot-pala's to also cap themselves.

[Deleted]

rebuke has a GCD lol wtf

What the ... I mean... Seriously ?

[Luthius]

What the ... I mean... Seriously ?

No.