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  1. #21
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    LOL, i don't usually say mean things but ROLF! That guy was clueless! Vindication xD

  2. #22
    Glad that I know it's not as "hard" as these two guys make it seem. Pretty hilarious videos nevertheless. Things are pretty wonky for us right now though...
    I quit the game, and this happens:
    "You can now mount while under the skeleton effect of the Noggenfogger Elixir!"
    Are you effing kidding me?!?!
    ******
    Remember 3.0.......

  3. #23
    WTF is with everyone ragging on Yogscast? Maybe watch their other videos before claiming they have no idea what they're doing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ronark View Post
    They [The Devs} are taking a more passive approach to balancing Ret- We will most likely go into Cataclysm, and possibly the first Raid and PvP tier, underpowered or out mechanic-ed, which will be fixed in either the next major patch or a smaller patch after that.
    Blizz has done this way too many times, except the fixing us part after a few patches part. No idea why some of you are confident that we'll be fixed, knowing Blizzard's track record with Rets, this is as good as we'll get.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddlesnarf View Post
    WTF is with everyone ragging on Yogscast? Maybe watch their other videos before claiming they have no idea what they're doing.


    Blizz has done this way too many times, except the fixing us part after a few patches part. No idea why some of you are confident that we'll be fixed, knowing Blizzard's track record with Rets, this is as good as we'll get.
    Why would we watch a video on a class we don't care about? We didn't say they don't know how to make a good comedy.
    Quote Originally Posted by Boubouille View Post
    Can you imagine if someone insulted you in a thread, you reported it, and I told you "sorry, wrong thread to be butthurt"?

  5. #25
    I still feel once we get some good macros and addons we'll be beastly and after we face roll a few classes we'll be nerf hammered into the ground as always.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Requital View Post
    Why would we watch a video on a class we don't care about? We didn't say they don't know how to make a good comedy.
    Agreed totally!

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by TK99 View Post
    I still feel once we get some good macros and addons we'll be beastly and after we face roll a few classes we'll be nerf hammered into the ground as always.
    IF dmg is too high but we are atm on other side of rainbow... our dmg is very low

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by TK99 View Post
    I still feel once we get some good macros and addons we'll be beastly and after we face roll a few classes we'll be nerf hammered into the ground as always.
    Macros don't all of a sudden make you shit lightning bolts, we've still got numerous mechanics issues.

  9. #29
    The Yogscast is epic win tbh :P

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddlesnarf View Post
    Blizz has done this way too many times, except the fixing us part after a few patches part. No idea why some of you are confident that we'll be fixed, knowing Blizzard's track record with Rets, this is as good as we'll get.
    Because coming to terms with the way we are now in Beta is the way we will be throughout Cata is tough. After the 3.0 nerfs Rets had faith we would get the interrupt because we were told we would get the interrupt at WotLK release once damage was under control. I guess our damage was so out of whack that it took until the new expansion to get what we needed in the last one.

    So yeah, Blizzard will definitely fix our Cata issues. It will just take them another expansion to do so.

    When I'm watching my druid spam Wraths that hit for as much as my Rets 3HP TVs on the ?? dummy (but Wrath bypasses armor); or my lock drop Hand of Guldans for 21K (that root you and stun you 3 seconds later AND gives my felguard 5% crit as he Bladestorms you); It makes me remember that all we really got out of this expansion was a new combat system, TV, and a slew of defensive nerfs.

    I can't think of any other class that lost more than they gained. This means that Blizzard ACTUALLY saw Rets as OP in the end of WotLK.

    What's worse..we will probably get a slew of nerfs after Cata is released. I beat a warrior in duels when I got 3 back-to-back AoW procs and a 3HP TV (Exo hit him for 2K+ less than the ?? dummy for some reason). Same thing with a Hunter who claimed that "Blizz favors Paladins once again" afterwards. I beat a frost mage, a shadow priest, and a Boomkin (who went Resto and I beat him again). All of these beat me more times than I beat them but when I got many procs I pwn'd them.

    This is what we have to look forward to in PvP. And guess which side of the RNG scale Blizzard will balance based on?

    The only fixes I see in store for Rets are the "fixes" GC said we needed because we were broken in WotLK.

  11. #31
    A new combat system is not gamechanging, how?

    And yes, Blizzard did see it that way. I think I have read a Blue post explaining that Ret was gaining too much generic damage and the discrepancy between good and semi-good players was too low, and that they wanted it to be harder to do your topnotch DPS. Which is terrific in my book. As facerolling what comes up first instead of carefully abiding by the laws of the FCFS priority list and doing almost the same damage is just D:.

    And people that let you get 3HP and not expect a truckload of damage are just ignorant, and I am not saying this because I got a Ret paladin, my Paladin is Prot as main, and my main itself is my Warrior. But we will have to see how Blizzard is going to take this. Because as broken as Paladin is with stats (strength outweighing hit and exp caps) it's the same with warriors (hit is the most important till full capped (14%! for DW) then haste and after that strength).

    All aside, that video is hilarious.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Badpaladin View Post
    Macros don't all of a sudden make you shit lightning bolts, we've still got numerous mechanics issues.
    this

    The real fact of the matter is a new system shouldn't make people lose a couple thousand DPS. I find the analogy of moving from arithmetic to algebra pretty on point. Blizzard didn't reinvent the wheel with this system... These DPS rotations are ALL elementary. This specific system - Rogues and DKs have been doing for years. It's not complex.

    Fact of the matter is the DPS loss is a problem. Being an apologist for blizzard or an e-thug about FINALLY having a "complex" rotation doesn't help anyone in the community out.

    I agree with the above poster, I think Blizzard sees us as OP, and I am not entirely sure why (especially on the PVP side of things).
    Last edited by Liminal; 2010-10-06 at 10:34 PM.

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pickwickman View Post
    A new combat system is not gamechanging, how?

    And yes, Blizzard did see it that way. I think I have read a Blue post explaining that Ret was gaining too much generic damage and the discrepancy between good and semi-good players was too low, and that they wanted it to be harder to do your topnotch DPS. Which is terrific in my book. As facerolling what comes up first instead of carefully abiding by the laws of the FCFS priority list and doing almost the same damage is just D:.

    And people that let you get 3HP and not expect a truckload of damage are just ignorant, and I am not saying this because I got a Ret paladin, my Paladin is Prot as main, and my main itself is my Warrior. But we will have to see how Blizzard is going to take this. Because as broken as Paladin is with stats (strength outweighing hit and exp caps) it's the same with warriors (hit is the most important till full capped (14%! for DW) then haste and after that strength).

    All aside, that video is hilarious.
    It's not the 3HP thats making them get hit for a truckload. Once armor is taken into account TV crits for about 10K or so. It's the back-to-back procs. These same people beat me until I got lucky with procs. This will not be allowed. A Ret that gets lucky (with 3+ AoW procs, or 2-AoW and 2-HoL, or whatever) could end a arena match (assuming damage is scaling with HPs).

    Blizzard will "balance" this and be prepared for it to be balanced based on us getting lucky (as with all things RNG). How many times have we heard "if the stars align right" as a defense for Blizz to not nerf something? Did it help at all?

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Liminal View Post
    this

    The real fact of the matter is a new system shouldn't make people lose a couple thousand DPS. I find the analogy of moving from arithmetic to algebra pretty on point. Blizzard didn't reinvent the wheel with this system... These DPS rotations are ALL elementary. This specific system - Rogues and DKs have been doing for years. It's not complex.

    Fact of the matter is the DPS loss is a problem. Being an apologist for blizzard or an e-thug about FINALLY having a "complex" rotation doesn't help anyone in the community out.

    I agree with the above poster, I think Blizzard sees us as OP, and I am not entirely sure why (especially on the PVP side of things).
    They see us over powered because of what a Properly gear Ret can do in a BG and they base everything on it. Arena they don't care where Ret sits because Holy and Prot represent the Paladin been like that since S1. So yes we are OP in a BG but that is because it's a cesspool of awful players that just hit 80 against a Shadowmourne Ret with full Wrathful and berserker buffs.
    Quote Originally Posted by Boubouille View Post
    Can you imagine if someone insulted you in a thread, you reported it, and I told you "sorry, wrong thread to be butthurt"?

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Requital View Post
    They see us over powered because of what a Properly gear Ret can do in a BG and they base everything on it. Arena they don't care where Ret sits because Holy and Prot represent the Paladin been like that since S1. So yes we are OP in a BG but that is because it's a cesspool of awful players that just hit 80 against a Shadowmourne Ret with full Wrathful and berserker buffs.
    This! It's mostly bad's who complain about ret's, and blizzard listened to every one of them. Remember the 1 stun global nonsense... I can't believe blizzard actually listened to blue geared PVP whining bads, who don't know when to trinket or kite a Paladin.

    Post 3.2 I remember a duel with a Full Epic level 76 twink hunter and a Ret Paladin in Northerend blues, can you guess who won?

  16. #36
    These videos did make me laugh, especially the second one, when he actually tried to put everything into application. That's exactly how I felt the first time I tried it, and I even made a post where I wrote down the order I used abilities. I wrote out two minutes of my "rotation" and the only pattern it had was every 2-3 GCDs I used CS. Everything else was off the wall bonkers random.

    I've gotten used to it now, but only because I started facerolling. (Ironic, huh?) I'll explain:
    1 - Crusader
    2 - Judgement
    3 - Wrath
    4 - Verdict (mod:Shift Inquisition)
    5 - Exorcism (macro: /cast Exorcism; /stopcasting)

    I just roll my fingers on 1-2-3 (cooldowns rarely clash anyway) and when I see Hand of Light or 3 Holy Power, I push 4. (Or Shift+4 if Inquisition is down on a boss fight.) If I see Art of War (and I can't use Verdict yet) then I push Exorcism. Otherwise I keep rolling my fingers on 1-2-3.

    Exorcism and Crusader are actually neck-and-neck for priority, and you aren't going to bottom out your DPS by using one before the other, except during Zealotry. Retribution has absolutely no rhythm anymore--it's very, very whack-a-mole.

    Blizzard is achieving their goal of separating skilled players from unskilled players. My issue is that even if you're AWESOME at Retribution--you're just good at Whack-A-Mole. No one ever set quarters on the Whack-A-Mole machine and said, "I got next game."

    ---------- Post added 2010-10-07 at 01:54 PM ----------

    I don't mean to suggest that Retribution is unplayable or anything, it's just really random now, it's just frustrating to have zero rhythm in our combat cycle.
    Last edited by Eugee; 2010-10-07 at 01:47 PM. Reason: spelling

  17. #37
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    once you set up a decent Ui, so everything you need to watch is in the same place on your screen its pretty simple.

    Timer for inquition + ur cd's
    Holy power numbers
    Then procs
    finally your cd timer on CS and Judge

    And its not hard to get it right, yes im still making the odd mistake. But i would assume ive got at least a year or so of this to learn to properly.

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eugee View Post
    These videos did make me laugh, especially the second one, when he actually tried to put everything into application. That's exactly how I felt the first time I tried it, and I even made a post where I wrote down the order I used abilities. I wrote out two minutes of my "rotation" and the only pattern it had was every 2-3 GCDs I used CS. Everything else was off the wall bonkers random.

    I've gotten used to it now, but only because I started facerolling. (Ironic, huh?) I'll explain:
    1 - Crusader
    2 - Judgement
    3 - Wrath
    4 - Verdict (mod:Shift Inquisition)
    5 - Exorcism (macro: /cast Exorcism; /stopcasting)

    I just roll my fingers on 1-2-3 (cooldowns rarely clash anyway) and when I see Hand of Light or 3 Holy Power, I push 4. (Or Shift+4 if Inquisition is down on a boss fight.) If I see Art of War (and I can't use Verdict yet) then I push Exorcism. Otherwise I keep rolling my fingers on 1-2-3.

    Exorcism and Crusader are actually neck-and-neck for priority, and you aren't going to bottom out your DPS by using one before the other, except during Zealotry. Retribution has absolutely no rhythm anymore--it's very, very whack-a-mole.

    Blizzard is achieving their goal of separating skilled players from unskilled players. My issue is that even if you're AWESOME at Retribution--you're just good at Whack-A-Mole. No one ever set quarters on the Whack-A-Mole machine and said, "I got next game."

    ---------- Post added 2010-10-07 at 01:54 PM ----------

    I don't mean to suggest that Retribution is unplayable or anything, it's just really random now, it's just frustrating to have zero rhythm in our combat cycle.
    you are missing something here.

    current ret rotation is really whack-a-mole. no matter what order you use, no matter what you have pressed so far, there is not a single one of those abilities that affects another. that's why it's whack-a-mole. no matter how skilled you are, if you have the right reflexes, you can hit anything that pops and still do decent DPS.

    on the BETA, you can't do that. if you would do so, you might hit TV at 2 (or even 1 stack), waste precious uptime on inquisition and lose HP procs. it's really a logical decision you need to make.

    the ret rotation is as follows (i have a spreadsheet on it somewhere):
    use HoL procs for inquisition if it is about to drop off.
    if inquisition has enough time remaining, use HoL on TV
    keep inquisition up on bosses.
    use TV at 3 stacks of HP.
    use CS to gain HP.
    use judgement between CS to keep JotP up.
    exorcism when AoW procs.
    holy wrath in all other cases.
    consecration if you have more than 75% mana.

    i've based this on own math using the 264 plate BiS list on EJ. i have included crit damage as a flat % damage modifier (1% crit = 1% damage).
    TV hits for 15.7K.
    inquisition hits for zip, but increases a lot of the remaining damage (about 20K worth when used at 3 HP).
    CS hits for 7.5K.
    judgement hits really weak (1.7K), but is needed for JotP, replenishment and mana. not using it on CD would be foolish.
    exo hits for 5.1K
    HW hits for 4.4K.
    consecration would be along those lines, but since it does not generate HP, can't have 100% uptime and costs a shedload of mana, it's dead last.

  19. #39
    I'm not missing anything; your "rotation" looks great on paper. Try doing it for two minutes. It looks something like this:

    cs judge hw inq cs tv ... cs judge ... cs tv hw cs judge ... cs exo ... cs ... ... cs A+Z cs inq exo cs tv how cs tv tv tv cs judge tv tv cs tv ... cs exo judge cs inq exo cs hw judge cs tv exo tv cs judge tv tv cs hw judge cs exo tv cs judge exo cs inq hw cs judge ... cs tv ... cs judge ... cs hw ... cs tv tv cs judge ... cs inq tv cs exo judge cs tv hw cs

    I didn't say we're unplayable, or it's too hard. I said that being good at Retribution now is like being good at the only game in the arcade that still costs one quarter.

    And I've got over 150 hours of paladin testing since F&FA. I'm not Theorycrafting.

    ---------- Post added 2010-10-07 at 05:29 PM ----------

    In the World of Whack-A-Mole™, let's compare Live to Cata:

    Live
    There are five mole holes; the left-most mole is always worth the most points, and there's a timer below each mole that warns you when it's going to pop up. There's a modified circuit board you can get for this machine with a T10-2P processor which makes the second mole frequently pop up before it's countdown is ready. It's easy to cheat at this game by just swinging the mallet from left to right a lot, thus always hitting the mole worth the most points.

    Beta
    There are six mole holes now; the first three moles are just like the Live version; the one on the left is worth the most points of the three, and they have timers showing when they will pop out. This machine also has three lights on the upper left panel of the game (you have to look away from the moles to see them) and there's also a 30 second timer on the top right panel, plus an LED light on the handle of the mallet. Whenever you hit the first mole, one of the lights will turn on; if you hit any other mole, there's a 40% chance that a light turns on. The fourth and fifth mole pop up whenever at least one light is lit, but you don't want to hit them till you have three lights. If you get three lights on, then you hit the fourth mole, which starts the 30 second timer. If the 30 second timer is already counting down then you should hit the fifth mole (hitting the fourth or fifth mole turns the lights off but there's a 40% chance one turns back on)--but if you swing at the fifth and miss a sensor picks that up and turns off one light. Note that every 3 seconds or so there is a 15-20% chance that the LED light on the mallet will light up; it's easy to miss because the mallet is kind of buried in the action! If the LED lights up you pretend that all three lights are on, but the lights won't turn off when you hit the fourth or fifth mole (but there's still a 40% chance of a light turning on!) Finally, the sixth mole just pops up randomly (about a 20% chance every 3 seconds or so) and you should hit it as long as LED on the mallet is off, you don't have three lights turned on, and the first mole hasn't popped up.

    You can buy a modified machine with a new cabinet that groups the lights and 30 second timer together, but the stock machine is very unforgiving. You can cheat a little by just waggling your mallet over the first three mole holes--they rarely pop up at the same time, anyway.

    Technically you could call the game put out by Live "whack-a-mole", but it didn't even do well by the kiddie-ski-ball lanes (too easy). When Cata put out the new cabinet, it was "MAN's whack-a-mole" but it never took off, because it's not really that fun, and even if you get good at it, the girls all want to hang out with the dude rocking out on Tekken5 anyway.
    Last edited by Eugee; 2010-10-07 at 05:32 PM.

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