Mitigation of all 4 tanks... Looks like DKs come out ahead?

[fatalaeon]

is bone shield moved to blood tree in cata?

---------- Post added 2010-10-07 at 10:47 AM ----------

thunderclap also mitigates as it descreases how often they can swing at you.

[Deleted]

you said warriors are useless vs spells... spell reflect, this one move makes them awesome as they generate threat and block dmg in the same move, talented it even gives them 60 rage, which allows for more threat. tanking isnt just about CDs its about managing your threat and keeping yourself alive while also trying to prevernt damgae to conserve healer mana. This thread sounds like you have never played a tank or done your research.

I would argue that tanking is actually more about surviving than threat, unless they make it ridiculously hard and your abilities to minimize all damage that comes your way is at the center of that. It's not just about stacking HP/armor and call it surviving. On warriors vs. spells, it is a major problem atm actually, at least on live servers because spell reflection is mainly useful again trash and only protects you against one spell per CD. If you compare it to AMS of DKs, it is vastly inferior which is also useful on boss fights, in fact, it shines in boss fights because it protects you for several seconds from all types of magic effects.

I like Spell Reflection, but tbh, warrior needs a bit of help in this area. One comment I got, not too long ago when talking with a buddy of mine, was that every time their guild does Sindragosa HM their warrior MT dies. It's just an accepted matter, on Sindy he will die and after tanking Sindy myself on a warrior, I concur that it really is quite a lot harder for the warrior.

However, and this is for the OP, I'm not really convinced warriors are behind in other areas. Haven't checked but was told on the beta shield wall and last stand are now down to 2 minute -ish CDs, which puts them on par with similar abilities that my DK has, like IBF and VB. I also noticed that you omitted some useful abilities that warriors have which contribute to survival; e.g. disarm, stuns (concussion blow, shockwave), thunderclap, and demo shout. For me, the proper use of these abilities usually separates a good warrior tank from a bad one.

[Timorgoth]

[/COLOR]thunderclap also mitigates as it descreases how often they can swing at you.

Every tank class has similar abilities, e.g. scarlet fever, which is even
"real" mitigaion as it reduces taken damage by 20%

[foenyx]

is bone shield moved to blood tree in cata?

it is

[Reluctant]

I also noticed that you omitted some useful abilities that warriors have which contribute to survival; e.g. disarm, stuns (concussion blow, shockwave), thunderclap, and demo shout. For me, the proper use of these abilities usually separates a good warrior tank from a bad one.

I agree with what u are saying but u also have to keep in mind most of those skill dont work on boss fights

[Goreguts]

I would argue that tanking is actually more about surviving than threat, unless they make it ridiculously hard and your abilities to minimize all damage that comes your way is at the center of that. It's not just about stacking HP/armor and call it surviving. On warriors vs. spells, it is a major problem atm actually, at least on live servers because spell reflection is mainly useful again trash and only protects you against one spell per CD. If you compare it to AMS of DKs, it is vastly inferior which is also useful on boss fights, in fact, it shines in boss fights because it protects you for several seconds from all types of magic effects.

I like Spell Reflection, but tbh, warrior needs a bit of help in this area. One comment I got, not too long ago when talking with a buddy of mine, was that every time their guild does Sindragosa HM their warrior MT dies. It's just an accepted matter, on Sindy he will die and after tanking Sindy myself on a warrior, I concur that it really is quite a lot harder for the warrior.

However, and this is for the OP, I'm not really convinced warriors are behind in other areas. Haven't checked but was told on the beta shield wall and last stand are now down to 2 minute -ish CDs, which puts them on par with similar abilities that my DK has, like IBF and VB. I also noticed that you omitted some useful abilities that warriors have which contribute to survival; e.g. disarm, stuns (concussion blow, shockwave), thunderclap, and demo shout. For me, the proper use of these abilities usually separates a good warrior tank from a bad one.

Then your warrior tank is a fucking moron. Doesn't know how to rotate CDs to frost breaths and stack EH for melee hits. Im the MT of our guild(war) and I don't have a single issue with HM sind....

[Deleted]

I agree with what u are saying but u also have to keep in mind most of those skill dont work on boss fights

True. I was kind of hoping Blizzard would get out to the habit of allowing the use of them, at least stuff lie disarm and demo shout, though stuns are a nice addition as well. The idea of having a boss like Saurfang and disarm him when he frenzies is just a cool idea and makes perfect sense.

Then your warrior tank is a fucking moron. Doesn't know how to rotate CDs to frost breaths and stack EH for melee hits. Im the MT of our guild(war) and I don't have a single issue with HM sind....

I didn't say he was our MT, but the MT of a neighboring guild, who I believe are the server 2nd guild so I highly doubt what you said. Go troll elsewhere.

[Goreguts]

Actually you're confused, Mitigation is based on avoidance. EH is armor/Health(How much x dmg is lowered by and how many hits you can take so to say)
Now the difference between Mitigation and Pure avoidance is Mitigation includes block, which avoidance is only dodge/parry. And also mitigation isn't definitive. Meaning its not a consistent mitigation of damage on every hit. Thats EH....

---------- Post added 2010-10-07 at 11:42 AM ----------

Shield Wall, BR(T10 4set), LS/Regen. Cds in general = Less dmg reduct = less spell

[elossa]

if ur talking about current status, yes druids and warriors are a bit weaker when it comes vs magic dmg then dk or pala, but in cata i belive that will change think i saw a 12% less magic dmg for druids(talent), and passive selfheal improvements for warrior, but then again think vs physical that shield will rock more, basicly alltoe i use my cooldowns(got war/dk/pala tanks)on me dk its mostly the selfheal i use on magic fights as a win since most cooldowns got a... well cooldown timer, and warriors spellreflect alltoe not as all encounter magic dmg usefull its got verry low cooler learn to use it, but as a warrior use ur shieldwall last stand is always great if u use enraged regen, and u have 16% passive less magic dmg taken add meta its 18% add trinkets/4set its more and try to reflect as mutch as u can, btw alltoe it dosent happen alot but if u got a high def nr add the +4% miss to spells bosses can miss alltoe not verry often sadly xD but hopefully cata evens stuff out, alltoe atm it aint terrible bad.

[Ilara]

Only thing warriors need is one minor cooldown that works on spelldamage and they're fine imo. Make spellreflect have a reduced effect on boss abilities (say reflect 10% of the damage) or give the bloodrage shield we currently have on live with the 4 set (bloodrage is gone but you could tie it to shouts)
There's a lot of dragons in cataclysm so a lot of dragon breaths, one ability to help with that would be very much appreciated.

I still remember sartharion 3d when it was hard. Warriors were not all that good on that encounter

[Lucky_]

I also noticed that you omitted some useful abilities that warriors have which contribute to survival; e.g. disarm, stuns (concussion blow, shockwave), thunderclap, and demo shout. For me, the proper use of these abilities usually separates a good warrior tank from a bad one.

I agree with what u are saying but u also have to keep in mind most of those skill dont work on boss fights

LK heroic and nearly-mandatory warrior tank for P1 would like a word with you. As would many other encounters in ICC.



On topic, OP essentially has a sort of tunnelvision fallacy here. He focuses on one aspect of tanking, ignoring everything else. Such as passive mitigation for example, in which warriors and paladins are vastly superior to other tanks, EH where druids are the kings of the hill, ad control and shutdown where warriors are absolute kings, AoE threat where DKs and paladins are on top, etc.


Sure, in any single aspect of many of tanking, one tank class will likely be superior to others. This is usually done to compensate for him being bad in other aspects.

And yes, you completely omit PASSIVE mitigation. Which turns your argument upside down with DKs coming out on bottom due to being the only class without proper block mechanic, with just heal shield that comes in effect AFTER already having taken damage rather then BEFORE, which is a major disadvantage. At the same time, warriors come on top due to critical block when it comes to passive mitigation.

[Reyzzz]

let's QQ together about the things we don't have yet.

[supremo502]

fail thread is fail

[Deleted]

LK heroic and nearly-mandatory warrior tank for P1 would like a word with you. As would many other encounters in ICC.

The only time a Warrior is a better OT than the other tanking classes in P1 LK is when you have very slow hunters.

edit: not saying Warriors are worse, just that they really aren't mandatory.

[Popmybubble]

DK's will never be able to be on par with Warriors or Paladins. Shield = win.

Warriors and Paladins are the easiest tanks to heal, unlike druids and DK's.

[ProfessorTjc]

well you know how to copy paste an online dictionary in an attempt to look educated.

ability like last stand, are not mitigation, they do absolutely nothing to lessen dmg taken ... to mitigate, sorry man.

good post though, just poorly titled.

Umm last time I Checked last stand increases your health by 30% and bosses damage still hits the same soo its sort of like a mitigation cd because you are taking less damage. Kthxbai.

P.S. - sorry for my bad typing I am doing this by phone.

[Deleted]

Apart from abilities, tanks also use different gear sets. Death knights don't get to use a shield, Druids wear leather with their modifiers and have no parry; Paladins and Warriors are really the only tanks you could compare straight up, back to back.

Oh and, emergency cooldowns have NOTHING to do with mitigation. They are emergency cooldowns for the very reason their name implies - you use them in an emergency, not spam them whenever they come off cd to reduce your overall damage taken or something. Mitigation = armor and block, and passive damage reduction / proc-based damage reduction. Certainly not Shield Wall.

mm last time I Checked last stand increases your health by 30% and bosses damage still hits the same soo its sort of like a mitigation cd because you are taking less damage.

That is a very clueless comment. You don't take less damage after using last stand - you have more buffer to absorb the same damage.

[BoomChickn]

Now iirc, arent dks a more cooldown based tanking? I am guessing they would take more passive damage than others for lack of shield, as mentioned, so they have more powerful cooldowns and reactive heals to help keep themselves up. While all other classes just take less damage passively, overall it should be roughly even between the classes over a 10 min fight.

[Deleted]

The only time a Warrior is a better OT than the other tanking classes in P1 LK is when you have very slow hunters.

edit: not saying Warriors are worse, just that they really aren't mandatory.

On HM I would definitely have a warrior or a paladin OT, due because the adds enrage on their own at 20% which I don't think you can remove with tranq shot. For normal ofc, doesn't matter at all who's doing the OTing.

[Zidius]

Umm last time I Checked last stand increases your health by 30% and bosses damage still hits the same soo its sort of like a mitigation cd because you are taking less damage. Kthxbai.

P.S. - sorry for my bad typing I am doing this by phone.

no. mehbeh you should have read that definiton the OP posted...since it doesn't reduce dmg it is not mitigation its (you'd think this would go without saying) Effective health

Effective health=/=Mitigation

Just because you are losing a lower % of your health does not actually mean you are mitigating it