Retribution Stat Weights in 4.01

[Tarondor]

The first post explains exactly the criteria under which the weightings were calculated. It's not the OP's fault if people don't read.

It actually only explains half of the criteria, the other half being 200 MS latency which has a LARGE impact on the mechanics. At 0 latency is his same gear-set the value of haste skyrocketed to 0.998 as he was no longer at an artificial haste cap caused by latency. The ability queue system should emulate having 0 latency when it comes to using instant cast spells and gives a far better representation of haste's actual worth, atleast to ~1019 haste, then you can go by those values.

[Simplistic]

It actually only explains half of the criteria, the other half being 200 MS latency which has a LARGE impact on the mechanics. At 0 latency is his same gear-set the value of haste skyrocketed to 0.998 as he was no longer at an artificial haste cap caused by latency. The ability queue system should emulate having 0 latency when it comes to using instant cast spells and gives a far better representation of haste's actual worth, atleast to ~1019 haste, then you can go by those values.

and the ability queue system is on beta...not the PTR. I don't believe it's going live with 4.01. Could be wrong, though.

[Tarondor]

Even then you would still be reforging crit to haste to attain the ideal CS for your regular latency, not just assume crit is better at all times by glancing at that table and moving on.

[Vanderhuge]

You're right about it being Beta-only. It wouldn't make a whole lot of sense for them to just toss it out into the wild and expect it to work on Live with the patch coming Tuesday.

[belfpala]

It actually only explains half of the criteria, the other half being 200 MS latency which has a LARGE impact on the mechanics. At 0 latency is his same gear-set the value of haste skyrocketed to 0.998 as he was no longer at an artificial haste cap caused by latency. The ability queue system should emulate having 0 latency when it comes to using instant cast spells and gives a far better representation of haste's actual worth, atleast to ~1019 haste, then you can go by those values.

Indeed, which is why I suggested linking the actual EJ posts.

Which, by the way, are here and here

[ragingsoul]

The first post explains exactly the criteria under which the weightings were calculated. It's not the OP's fault if people don't read.

no, it doesn't since he doesn't state how much haste he already has just 'we already have so much'.

---------- Post added 2010-10-10 at 11:18 PM ----------

LOL, I think it's fairly clear. Mostly full ICC gear, meaning you're already close to the haste soft cap (especially raid buffed), and at lvl 80, not 85...that's why I titled it stat weights in 4.01. The post itself that I quoted also further clarifies that the bolded stat weights apply to level 80s.

I never took this for lvl 85, but you just did it here yourself with "you're already close to the haste soft cap" close to it yes, but if you're not, then those values are wrong, hence me saying, if you want to make something, take the soft cap into account or don't make it at all.
When http://elitistjerks.com/f76/t102489-...0/#post1763983 was made, it was with latency in mind, which puts the haste soft cap lower and easily done with ICC gear. However, don't tell me it's easy to get 1019 haste on gear when thinking with 0 latency to be at the soft cap raid buff. So no, I'm sorry, your first post is misleading and should be changed accordingly, or a lot of people are gonna get things wrong when the blue post announcing the patch will appear on the front page.

[Badpaladin]

These threads aren't for morons who can't make logical connections such as "icc gear and raid buffs means you're at or near the haste softcap by default". Haste in this case isn't just some oscillating value either, it's a strict linear model.

[ragingsoul]

These threads aren't for morons who can't make logical connections such as "icc gear and raid buffs means you're at or near the haste softcap by default". Haste in this case isn't just some oscillating value either, it's a strict linear model.

you would be surprise to what the normal reader only look at. Doesn't change the fact that going with those values, you would take Arbiter of the Light over Judgements of the Pure which is wrong, because the 1019 haste for a 3.0sec cd is only true if you take it.

[Badpaladin]

you would be surprise to what the normal reader only look at. Doesn't change the fact that going with those values, you would take Arbiter of the Light over Judgements of the Pure which is wrong, because the 1019 haste for a 3.0sec cd is only true if you take it.

Assuming full raid buffs includes jotp unless you've somehow attained way more haste through gear such that it isn't needed. I also don't care about 'your average raider'; if they can't figure some stuff out own and take these calculated values as a key part of the while system rather than 'hurr do wut ej has writinz' then they're bad and shouldn't even be considered.

[ragingsoul]

Assuming full raid buffs includes jotp unless you've somehow attained way more haste through gear such that it isn't needed. I also don't care about 'your average raider'; if they can't figure some stuff out own and take these calculated values as a key part of the while system rather than 'hurr do wut ej has writinz' then they're bad and shouldn't even be considered.

Good players that didn't follow recent changes would then fall into your "bad player" category?
All I'm asking is that the OP change his post to include more details not to confuse people, good or bad, is it really too much to ask? if people are so good to figure out things on their own, then those thread would not even exist, am I wrong?

[Simplistic]

you would be surprise to what the normal reader only look at. Doesn't change the fact that going with those values, you would take Arbiter of the Light over Judgements of the Pure which is wrong, because the 1019 haste for a 3.0sec cd is only true if you take it.

This thread isn't about the proper spec in 4.01 for a retribution paladin. If you're so clueless that you can't read and make simple inferences from the original post, you probably aren't smart enough to pick your talents yourself and will clearly defer to one of the many sites which lists the "go to" ret spec for 4.01.

You do realize that you are the only one who seems to be confused about this thread, don't you?

[Badpaladin]

Good players that didn't follow recent changes would then fall into your "bad player" category?
All I'm asking is that the OP change his post to include more details not to confuse people, good or bad, is it really too much to ask? if people are so good to figure out things on their own, then those thread would not even exist, am I wrong?

Yep. If you're unable to put 2 and 2 together, you shouldn't even be reading a discussion thread like this. FAQ's are for those who just want a finished product. No need to change the title.

[ragingsoul]

This thread isn't about the proper spec in 4.01 for a retribution paladin. If you're so clueless that you can't read and make simple inferences from the original post, you probably aren't smart enough to pick your talents yourself and will clearly defer to one of the many sites which lists the "go to" ret spec for 4.01.

You do realize that you are the only one who seems to be confused about this thread, don't you?

I'm not confused, I just know after reading dozen of other things, that those stats are only true if all haste raid buff are present and if you account his gear and 200ms lag, which is not stated in your first post. Once you start decreasing lag, those stats can't hold true any longer.
If you expect people to know everything about stats weights before reading this, then you can just link EJ post.
I was just asking to put more details in the first post, instead of arguing with me, just put it there, and everyone will be happy and there won't be any confusion.

[Tarondor]

I definately agree that if the OP is so willing to post info from EJ he should post all relevant info as well, seeing as if no one did that then there would be no proof of anything being right or wrong. I agree with people being accountable for knowing what's correct, but when only half the info is presented it's a one sided argument.

[Simplistic]

I'm not confused, I just know after reading dozen of other things, that those stats are only true if all haste raid buff are present and if you account his gear and 200ms lag, which is not stated in your first post. Once you start decreasing lag, those stats can't hold true any longer.
If you expect people to know everything about stats weights before reading this, then you can just link EJ post.
I was just asking to put more details in the first post, instead of arguing with me, just put it there, and everyone will be happy and there won't be any confusion.

If this were a legal brief I would provide appropriate citation...since it isn't I assume me saying the source of the information was EJ will allow almost anyone to go and do a little research of their own. This thread doesn't claim to be a holistic compendium of 4.01 retribution paladin info. Deal. With. It.

[ragingsoul]

If this were a legal brief I would provide appropriate citation...since it isn't I assume me saying the source of the information was EJ will allow almost anyone to go and do a little research of their own. This thread doesn't claim to be a holistic compendium of 4.01 retribution paladin info. Deal. With. It.

Exemplar then added:

The main issue is current gear - or gear inflation. I have 15% haste at 80 in the 4.x world (worse rating conversion than present). That plus WoA totem and JotP is a beefy shift for the CS CD. One of my assumptions is that the average player has about 200ms latency - this is configurable in the spreadsheet, but since it's not ready for release you have only my specific gear and settings as a single data point.

In the current world of Latency, if I push CS CD down to 3 seconds I still couldn't cast it faster than every 3.2 (spell or no filler) to 3.4 seconds (Judge/HoW filler), since I'd lose 0.2 seconds every GCD. With my gear it's very close to this level of haste (and far past during Heroism). Thus haste loses benefit on CS and becomes only a boost for autoattack (and HoL).

In short, because of latency I was close enough to the CS CD cap already that haste devalued after a few points and an average of the first 100 points winds up looking very poorly.

If I remove all latency then at L80 (hitcapped):
Stat Value
Str 1
Haste 0.998
Crit 0.77
Mastery 0.25
Hit 0.09

by putting the text without its context, you're generalizing his data and thus providing wrong information. The author himself isn't sure of the data and says that the stats weights are affected a lot by latency, whenever or not the Custom Latency Tolerance fix is taking into account or not.
Quoting something doesn't make it true, deal with it.

[Simplistic]

Exemplar then added:

Quoting something doesn't make it true, deal with it.

I posted a longer reply but I deleted it b/c I don't want to be that argumentative.

Let's just focus on this quote. Are you claiming, now, that what I originally posted is incorrect or just lacking context?

[ragingsoul]

I posted a longer reply but I deleted it b/c I don't want to be that argumentative.

Let's just focus on this quote. Are you claiming, now, that what I originally posted is incorrect or just lacking context?

both.
it's lacking context in the sense that those stats weights are only true if taken from a first draft for a specific gear, using a specific unfinished spreadsheet, that account for an average of 200ms and certain raid buffs.

it's incorrect if you start lowering the latency as stated by the author, either if your connection is better or if we have the new blizzard latency option.

When posting info like this, the same way you present scientific research, is to state the conditions in which you found those results, so that someone else can reproduce them. In this case, that when people try to apply it to their gear, that the result is gonna be similar than when the original tester did them.

by obmiting those details, you're pretty much just like this guy that claims to do "9731.8 avg dps using SoT, TV, CS primes" forgetting to mention he was doing it on a lvl 60 dummy on the post itself..
his intention were good, since the heroic one is subject to different debuff that prevent you from testing something accurately, but forgetting to mention that little detail makes the post on itself wrong and misled a couple of people until he explained it.

[Simplistic]

both.
it's lacking context in the sense that those stats weights are only true if taken from a first draft for a specific gear, using a specific unfinished spreadsheet, that account for an average of 200ms and certain raid buffs.

So what context do you want? Let's take all the assumptions and things "we" know out b/c we don't want to confuse whoever might stumble upon this post. What's the armor type and level of the dummy he tested on? How long did he test? Is his math correct? What type of computer is he using? So on and so forth. Because you're uncomfortable with the level of context in the OP doesn't mean anyone else is...and, clearly, from this thread, few are.

it's incorrect if you start lowering the latency as stated by the author, either if your connection is better or if we have the new blizzard latency option.

So it's correct as stated, then?

When posting info like this, the same way you present scientific research, is to state the conditions in which you found those results, so that someone else can reproduce them. In this case, that when people try to apply it to their gear, that the result is gonna be similar than when the original tester did them.

by obmiting those details, you're pretty much just like this guy that claims to do "9731.8 avg dps using SoT, TV, CS primes" forgetting to mention he was doing it on a lvl 60 dummy on the post itself..
his intention were good, since the heroic one is subject to different debuff that prevent you from testing something accurately, but forgetting to mention that little detail makes the post on itself wrong and misled a couple of people until he explained it.

So, by giving the context that this post concerned Retribution paladins in patch 4.01, in nearly full ICC gear, which results in high haste levels and thus devalues haste...I've somehow confused who? Oh right, just you. Beyond that, you're not even confused. You're just desperately trying to win a pointless argument. Give up.

[Eurytos]

Debating is good, keep it up. This might be the longest thread I've seen with no name calling. I've learned alot just from these pages, correct me if I am wrong but stat weights go like this

Hit and expertise to caps, through reforging
Strength
Haste to 3s CS cd
Crit
Mastery

Is that right?