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  1. #721
    Quote Originally Posted by Talen View Post
    If you want to put it in simpler terms, the Mastery is effectively a chance to cause your next attack to deal extra damage, and does this by allowing you to switch in a TV instead.
    Which is exactly why it's worthwhile to use. Think of it this way. Our mastery could be

    Hand of Light -

    Your next attack has a chance to deal X% extra damage.

    This is basically what our mastery is. Yes, it COULD possibly push back our HP generator, but this is not always the case. There are also the cases where our TV gives us the additional HP we need to do another TV.

    I understand the concern that HoL doesn't mesh well because it can cause a delay in our rotation. This is understandable, but at the same time, being upset because you are given a free chance to use a more powerful attack while still given the chance to gain HP to use that powerful move again is something I don't see a problem with.

    Zealotry on the other hand is a problem because the original mechanics without the cooldown are implemented in a way where it doesn't cause a problem. Once Zealotry is activated, Hammer of Wrath comes into the picture and things get more muddled. A simpler cooldown that is either A) a flat damage incerase, B) a flat haste increase or C) a cooldown/ability that meshes well with our current rotation.

    ---------- Post added 2010-11-03 at 06:33 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddlesnarf View Post
    You must work for Blizzard.
    For the fact that I think that it's a good thing that every now and then we get a free chance to use our hardest hitting attack in substitute for either a filler that does less damage or our HP builder when using that hardest hitting ability has an equal chance to build HP as any other ability besides our HP builder, which it ALSO hits harder than?

    For clarification purposes I'll put it into numbers..

    TV hits for an average amount of 16k.
    CS hits for an average amount of 12k.
    Exo hits for an average amount of 10k.
    HW hits for an average amount of 8k.
    Judgement hits for an average amount of 8k.

    When given a free chance at using TV, you are always going to get an average of 4k damage more than any other attack you would have used. So you can say in theory that our mastery is -

    When your mastery procs, your next attack will do an additional 4k+ damage.

  2. #722
    Herald of the Titans zcks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Handsylton View Post
    Which is exactly why it's worthwhile to use. Think of it this way. Our mastery could be

    Hand of Light -

    Your next attack has a chance to deal X% extra damage.

    This is basically what our mastery is. Yes, it COULD possibly push back our HP generator, but this is not always the case. There are also the cases where our TV gives us the additional HP we need to do another TV.
    The problem with our mastery is that we already have as much or more to keep track of then other classes. Also much like the art of war it can only be triggered from auto attacks which we rarely if ever get in a pvp situation or conditions that require allot of movement.

    In a fight that requires no movement & allows 100% up time on the boss this allows us to perform about equal to others but as soon as the fight becomes about movement or pvp we fall way behind even other melee classes because we do not have as effective of gap closers.

    They could easily solve allot of our problems with movement based fights & pvp by allowing hand of light & the art of war to be triggered by any attack but with a slightly smaller proc chance.

    Granted we would still have an overabundance of RNG luck determining performance in the spec instead of skill but it would be a start.
    The way balancing for WOW PVP works is allot like American politics.
    1: Be lazy & ignore problems till the yelling is so loud your cant concentrate.
    2: Refuse to do the things you have Said need to be done, then make up reasons why they cannot be done.
    3: Lay the blame for problems on someone else even when it's your fault because you did all of the above.

  3. #723
    Quote Originally Posted by Handsylton View Post

    When given a free chance at using TV, you are always going to get an average of 4k damage more than any other attack you would have used. So you can say in theory that our mastery is -

    When your mastery procs, your next attack will do an additional 4k+ damage.
    Except when CS crits and does more damage than a non-crit TV. Same thing applies to Exorcism and Hammer or Wrath.
    Your and Talen's arguments are extremely flawed.
    I'm not going to kick and scream if our Mastery is never changed, but I will definitely argue against it being any good.

  4. #724
    Quote Originally Posted by zcks View Post
    The problem with our mastery is that we already have as much or more to keep track of then other classes. Also much like the art of war it can only be triggered from auto attacks which we rarely if ever get in a pvp situation or conditions that require allot of movement.
    Talk to Feral kittys. Yes, we have a lot of things to manage, but thats more of a question of skill than anything else. Yes, it sucks that every now and then we are thrown into a situation where we don't get HoL procs, but I don't think we are balanced around getting a ton of HoL procs. I think HoL procs are an added bonus, the same with every other mastery.

    ---------- Post added 2010-11-03 at 07:07 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddlesnarf View Post
    Except when CS crits and does more damage than a non-crit TV. Same thing applies to Exorcism and Hammer or Wrath.
    Your and Talen's arguments are extremely flawed.
    I'm not going to kick and scream if our Mastery is never changed, but I will definitely argue against it being any good.
    You can't argue about a crit CS vs. a non-crit TV. That is a flawed argument. I'm tired of hearing this. Basing it on AVERAGE DAMAGE is the only way that you can see a valid argument. The same argument falls into Exorcism. Hammer of Wrath is different because it's only activated on cooldown, and therefore changes our rotation BECAUSE it is only usable when either on cooldown or under 20% health. It is our Execute, it's supposed to change up our rotation a bit.
    Last edited by Handsylton; 2010-11-03 at 07:07 AM.

  5. #725
    Brewmaster Requite's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Handsylton View Post
    Talk to Feral kittys. Yes, we have a lot of things to manage, but thats more of a question of skill than anything else. Yes, it sucks that every now and then we are thrown into a situation where we don't get HoL procs, but I don't think we are balanced around getting a ton of HoL procs. I think HoL procs are an added bonus, the same with every other mastery.[COLOR="red"]
    Why Compare Paladins to Feral Kitty's?

    Last i checked Feral Kitty's also have a ton of reliable dps tools and not standing there waiting for CS to come of CD or filling in the rotation with umm holy Wrath and judgement...

    Not forgetting to mention feral druids also have a pretty interesting interrupt that is stronger that Rebuke and they have better dot's on the target along with some pretty awesome crits.

    Hand of Light is bonus yes, but we are a Holy class that specialised in DPS yet most of our DPS is melee and warriors have colossus smash because blizzard didn't want to give them a %0f weapon dmg or %of melee dmg... Yes most of our abilities are balanced around %of weapon dmg and ridiculously low holy damage.

    Seals and Holy Damage is what made retribution paladins different, now we are just a cheap copy of rogues/priests/warriors rolled into one... Jack of all trades, master of none.

    And regarding RNG, last night at Halion i have 8 Hand of Light procs back to back and yet just a few days back in ICC i had two when i really needed that extra dps... RNG is RNG.
    Great Uther's ghost, it's chasing after us! Squire, do something! Throw rocks at it! I have no plan!

  6. #726
    Anyone knows any weapon rankings for 4.0.1? I got Bloodfall heroic, stupid agility...! I dont really know what really is better atm..
    Remember to always be yourself, unless you suck.

  7. #727
    Quote Originally Posted by Loppan View Post
    Anyone knows any weapon rankings for 4.0.1? I got Bloodfall heroic, stupid agility...! I dont really know what really is better atm..
    Bryntroll heroic. Untill you get Shadowmourne.

  8. #728
    High Overlord Astrumjunior's Avatar
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    Perhaps make DS proc Divine Purpose for each target it hits (or a chance) and give it a 3-4 sec CD?

    It would keep Holy Power relevant, but also make DS close to "Fan of Knives."

    Also, Ronark, I think Inquisition converting a % of your physical dmg to holy dmg is an excellent idea. Along with converting our mastery to the old +20% or so Holy damage! Exorcism and so on can be brought down a bit, but its a good idea. My only concern would be how to give Retribution more ways to generate INSTANT HoPo, Zealotry is OK but it has what I feel to be TONS of requirements. Perhaps adding snares to the list of things that give us HoPo in Pursuit of Justice or even making Divine Plea give us Holy Power. (Though the healing reduction should be removed and its CD made more viable through a talent)

  9. #729
    Herald of the Titans zcks's Avatar
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    The vast majority of our problems with dependence on RNG luck, Survivability could be solved by making holy power generation more consistent.

    This in turn could be done a number of ways, I have heard 4-5 decent suggestions for how they could make small but effective changes in this area & hopefully blizzard does something. After they are done with that hopefully they can also make our procs a bit more dependable as well, Similar to how warriors have execute & overpower procs or how several of the death knight procs work.

    After that maybe they could look into fixing our extreme weakness to kiting, They have already made a step in the right direction by making acts of sacrifice talent cause cleanse to remove "A" snare when cast on self (on beta). Though they may need to make it remove all snares given its high mana cost, the ease with which snares can be applied & stacked on top of each other. Perhaps they could even make long arm of the law a constant 130% run speed buff.

    As for our extreme weakness to offensive dispels I have heard & suggested that they either make all self defensive buffs with a Cd of one minute or more immune to dispel effects or have a set % resistance to them, or they could increase the mana cost of these offensive dispels & add a internal Cd when they are used on players.

    ---------- Post added 2010-11-03 at 10:06 AM ----------

    Oh Ronark as far as our mastery goes I and many others would be happy if they went with your idea of changing it back to the old +20% holy damage done then added in a dependable proc to watch for.

    As is we just have way to much randomness in the spec & very little of it can be controlled which in turn leads to dumb luck being the deciding factor in everything instead of skill.

    As for what that proc could be I came up with a change to sanctified wrath a while back, It called for changing the last part on the talent that says your hammer of wrath can now be used at any time during avenging wrath. Instead it would allow the use of hammer of wrath whenever certain conditions were met.

    As far as those conditions go I was thinking they could change Templar's Verdict so that it did a set % of its damage instantly as holy damage then the remainder over 6 seconds & the dot ticking could be the trigger.
    The way balancing for WOW PVP works is allot like American politics.
    1: Be lazy & ignore problems till the yelling is so loud your cant concentrate.
    2: Refuse to do the things you have Said need to be done, then make up reasons why they cannot be done.
    3: Lay the blame for problems on someone else even when it's your fault because you did all of the above.

  10. #730
    Just 1 simple question. Our crit is bugged? Cause no matter what I end up doing (reforg, changing gear) I allways end up with low crit (25%)...

  11. #731
    Quote Originally Posted by Zangetsu View Post
    Just 1 simple question. Our crit is bugged? Cause no matter what I end up doing (reforg, changing gear) I allways end up with low crit (25%)...
    Who cares about crit?
    Armories:
    Pally: Chiaki
    Dk: Telare
    Warrior: Irlida

  12. #732
    Who ever is haste caped?

  13. #733
    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddlesnarf View Post
    You must work for Blizzard.

    lawl

  14. #734
    Quote Originally Posted by Handsylton View Post
    Which is exactly why it's worthwhile to use.
    Which isn't actually the problem.

    The problem is that it isn't great an increase, which devalues Mastery, making it a poor stat for Rets and Msastery is on lot of gear.
    Theres also the way in which it interacts with mechanics and HP generation and adds to the RNG of the class.

    EJL

  15. #735
    Quote Originally Posted by Zangetsu View Post
    Who ever is haste caped?
    Sitting at 1022 haste rating, giving me a nice 3.0sec cooldown on CS and allowing faster use after a spell filler (in fact you have nothing else to reforge to, crit is the same as haste while mastery completly suck, so the more haste you got (even past the cap) the better it is for your dps)

  16. #736
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    Protector of the Innocent now affects heals on any target except yourself.
    And there goes one of our best PvP abilitys. *sigh*

    Divine Storm change makes us more GCD locked than ever before. Which is pretty much the opposite of what they said they wanted to do.

  17. #737
    Quote Originally Posted by Doylez View Post
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    Protector of the Innocent now affects heals on any target except yourself.
    And there goes one of our best PvP abilitys. *sigh*

    Divine Storm change makes us more GCD locked than ever before. Which is pretty much the opposite of what they said they wanted to do.
    Not really, it's just that now when we want to aoe, we just push DS instead of CS, nothing drastically changed in our rotation...

    Edit: was implying that they'll certainly share cooldowns.

  18. #738
    Quote Originally Posted by Dalarius View Post
    Not really, it's just that now when we want to aoe, we just push DS instead of CS, nothing drastically changed in our rotation...

    Edit: was implying that they'll certainly share cooldowns.
    except that it doesn't say anything about shared cooldowns.

  19. #739
    Quote Originally Posted by Doylez View Post
    except that it doesn't say anything about shared cooldowns.
    Yeah but imo they will, that way it will be similar to the prot rotation, you choose between CS or your AoE move, at least, it would be a lot more clever.

    And SoB also affecting the DS cd hint that they will share cooldowns.

  20. #740
    High Overlord
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    ... and that DS generates Holy Power *fingercrossing*

    i mean a 100% chance to generate

    Delivering Justice Since 2008 - retired since April 2011

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