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  1. #21
    After doing a heroic i can honestly say that im sad to be a bear. My healer managed to pull aggro off me, i thought that was impossible but apparantly swipe can miss/be out of range/whatever resulting in the mob(s) going for the healer. Not a fun experience.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Trekk View Post
    I have to agree. Bear aoe tanking right now sucks. I actually had to mark targets last night, because I can't just spam swipe to keep everything on me. While I dont think we need to have spammable swipe, We definitly need something to help fill better until cata comes. Perhaps make the mangle proc from berserk hit another target for 100% damage?
    Yep. I ran heroics with guildies so that we could learn stuff easily and I had to constantly remind my dps to NOT AoE right away anymore like theyre used to. It sucked cuz now im running heroics thinking I fail. I dont. I just havent learned it quite yet. And yes I did read ppl from PTRs explaining things but to be fair, a lot were doing PTR at what 85 and had Thrash? lol.

  3. #23
    I ran a random to test things, had a rather annoying UI problem but I was sorta able to hold threat. I noticed even a small mistake in my rotation led to the mage taking a mob single target. Also, it was a frost mage doing 14000dps. o_o

  4. #24
    idk what the hell yalls problem is, i love the new bear changes, my threat is off the charts

    12k tps in a five man, wut??

    can't aoe tank?

    try tab targeting and spamming pulverize.

    i'm wearing basically icc10 gear, so my gear is pretty decent, idk what yalls gear is.

    bear tanking is harder now, a lot harder, but its funner

    also, OP's rotation suggestions are retarded

    why the f would u use pulverize AFTER you used maul and mangle?? you just felt like wasteing that extra crit i guess?

    the best single target TPS i have come across is this enrage >> Mangle >> Laceratex3 >> Pulverize >> maul >> Mangle >> ff (at this point it becomes priority, keep your pulverize proc up, use maul, mangle and ff any time they are off cooldown and keep your lacerate x3 up so long as your pulverize buff is up


    as for aoe tanking, start off with enrage >> swipe >> tabtarget pulverize/mangle/maul what ever you can push, you have 200% threat to throw around, i think the biggest problem you noobs are having is you aren't used to having to push more than two buttons.

    i mean no disrespect, but hate the player, not the game in this particular situation.


    you just got to relearn your class, thats all. try new things, dont be afraid to expirment and fail and you will get it.

    if you find its not to your likeing? well that sucks a lot, but you may have to reroll, but hey, at least they're completely overhauling 1-60 in two months, right?
    Signature Nazi's suck.

  5. #25
    While at first I was glad that my random heroic as a post-4.0.1 bear was Violet Hold, knowing there'd be a lot of room for error, I was particularly annoyed by the AoE packs. They were much more likely to scatter and were a pain in the butt to establish threat on quickly. A single Swipe on a cooldown tended to miss at least one in each group, and of course at that point AoE had been going for a couple seconds already.

    Can't wait to pick up Thrash at 81. Or perhaps even more, for dps to learn to hold off on all-out AoE dps until the tank has established at least a little threat on everything.

    Run went smoothly though. I was 34% of the total healing for the run from Leader of the Pack, and the total incoming damage I received for the entire run was less than my maximum health. VH hasn't required tank heals for a while, but now I'm fairly convinced it doesn't require any other party members, either. ^.^

    @Muezick: Maintaining AoE threat, as before, isn't hard at all. It's getting that initial burst AoE threat that's harder than ever. If a single target avoids your Swipe, the situation gets dicey as you try to pick that one up when you should already be tab lacerating and tossing proc Mangles around.

    Not *that* hard, but frustrating on spread-out packs when Swipe misses something and DPS doesn't wait (and DPS never waits).
    Last edited by Koumaru; 2010-10-13 at 03:55 PM.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Muezick View Post
    idk what the hell yalls problem is, i love the new bear changes, my threat is off the charts

    12k tps in a five man, wut??

    can't aoe tank?

    try tab targeting and spamming pulverize.

    i'm wearing basically icc10 gear, so my gear is pretty decent, idk what yalls gear is.

    bear tanking is harder now, a lot harder, but its funner

    also, OP's rotation suggestions are retarded

    why the f would u use pulverize AFTER you used maul and mangle?? you just felt like wasteing that extra crit i guess?

    the best single target TPS i have come across is this enrage >> Mangle >> Laceratex3 >> Pulverize >> maul >> Mangle >> ff (at this point it becomes priority, keep your pulverize proc up, use maul, mangle and ff any time they are off cooldown and keep your lacerate x3 up so long as your pulverize buff is up


    as for aoe tanking, start off with enrage >> swipe >> tabtarget pulverize/mangle/maul what ever you can push, you have 200% threat to throw around, i think the biggest problem you noobs are having is you aren't used to having to push more than two buttons.

    i mean no disrespect, but hate the player, not the game in this particular situation.


    you just got to relearn your class, thats all. try new things, dont be afraid to expirment and fail and you will get it.

    if you find its not to your likeing? well that sucks a lot, but you may have to reroll, but hey, at least they're completely overhauling 1-60 in two months, right?
    What a douchebag response. Yes I know I have to relearn the class, I implied it in my first post. I am trying new things, hence the whole taking only guildies. /rolls eyes Its just going to take some getting used to on both my part and the dps' part. ie, dps cant IMMEDIATELY start AoEing. Thats on them to get used to not me. I can only do so much.

    I am ok with having to hit other buttons, having the time to do it before AoE starts is again, part of the issue. I successfully tanked 3 heroics last night with no deaths. Thats a good thing. Just having to get used to the new rotation.

    Ive been playing since Vanilla. Granted I was a hunter until WotLK but I still knew what CC was and never had the whole AoE everything mentality so I know whats coming and I am embracing it. Just a matter of making do with what we have while still dealing with DPS's AoE everything still mentality.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by dombow View Post
    Yep. I ran heroics with guildies so that we could learn stuff easily and I had to constantly remind my dps to NOT AoE right away anymore like theyre used to. It sucked cuz now im running heroics thinking I fail. I dont. I just havent learned it quite yet. And yes I did read ppl from PTRs explaining things but to be fair, a lot were doing PTR at what 85 and had Thrash? lol.
    Thrash makes a big difference at 81. It means you have 2 GCD's to hit an AoE ability and 2 GCD's to wait before you can use another one. Also, while the bleed component may not be that spectacular, the bleeds CAN crit, and they're generating a little extra threat (plus the front-end damage on Thrash is pretty nice).

    However, at 80, Swipe really shines when you have Vengeance backing it up. So in raids, given a little lead (and maybe TotT), Swipe will start to dominate. A healer and I went to two-man the Marrowgar trash before raid to speed up the raid last night, and my Swipes were critting between 18-20k. Granted, that's with the ICC buff, but that's still much bigger than we're used to.

    Should mention if you aren't in a raiding environment, what really works against you is not getting hit hard enough at the start of a fight and/or rage generation. In a heroic, you'll either have to pull even larger groups, or pay real close attention to your rage (prioritizing Swipe if it's an AoE fest).
    Last edited by exochaft; 2010-10-13 at 04:17 PM.
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  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by exochaft View Post
    Thrash makes a big difference at 81. It means you have 2 GCD's to hit an AoE ability and 2 GCD's to wait before you can use another one. Also, while the bleed component may not be that spectacular, the bleeds CAN crit, and they're generating a little extra threat (plus the front-end damage on Thrash is pretty nice).
    Yeh I kept telling my guildies I couldnt wait to hit level 81 just so i could have thrash lol. I think rotations would be a little bit easier to manage once we have Thrash to put in.

  9. #29
    You know, last night I got Halls Of Reflection as my first heroic. It was easy because a good party knows that HoR is a not a place to AoE stuff down, it is about clearing enemies that are more dangerous first.

    After that, I went for another run and I got H UP. The first pack after the the room with the treasure and the skeletons got one DPS killed because he used his AoE outright (one of them was a Moonkin and popped Starfall + Hurricane... Oh boy!). After that I had no issues as long as they were focusing my target. I never lost aggro to the healer, it was fine.

    And no, I do not TAB mobs at all. Tabbing feels like going back to TBC, it was not that good back then. I can definitely keep a couple monsters on me, and Swipe gets the job done on the others. I am not going to work harder so that lousy DPS can just slack some more. In case we wanted to AoE things down, I asked them to wait for when my third Swipe as about to hit. That worked fine, I am not sure if it would work with 2 Swipes.

    Do not feel bad if you are tanking 4 mobs and you lose one of them to a trigger-happy DPS. It is his or her fault, not yours. The game has changed again, and people must understand that. Until they do, tanking is not that pleasant, unless you laugh at all the dead DPS.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Muezick View Post
    idk what the hell yalls problem is, i love the new bear changes, my threat is off the charts

    12k tps in a five man, wut??

    can't aoe tank?

    try tab targeting and spamming pulverize.

    i'm wearing basically icc10 gear, so my gear is pretty decent, idk what yalls gear is.

    bear tanking is harder now, a lot harder, but its funner

    also, OP's rotation suggestions are retarded

    why the f would u use pulverize AFTER you used maul and mangle?? you just felt like wasteing that extra crit i guess?

    the best single target TPS i have come across is this enrage >> Mangle >> Laceratex3 >> Pulverize >> maul >> Mangle >> ff (at this point it becomes priority, keep your pulverize proc up, use maul, mangle and ff any time they are off cooldown and keep your lacerate x3 up so long as your pulverize buff is up


    as for aoe tanking, start off with enrage >> swipe >> tabtarget pulverize/mangle/maul what ever you can push, you have 200% threat to throw around, i think the biggest problem you noobs are having is you aren't used to having to push more than two buttons.

    i mean no disrespect, but hate the player, not the game in this particular situation.


    you just got to relearn your class, thats all. try new things, dont be afraid to expirment and fail and you will get it.

    if you find its not to your likeing? well that sucks a lot, but you may have to reroll, but hey, at least they're completely overhauling 1-60 in two months, right?
    Cuz spamming Pulverize without Lacerate is pro right?
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  11. #31
    1.) Armor does effectively have a diminishing return as it gets worse as you stack more. Think of the reverse of armor penetration.

    - Wow Wiki
    Code:
    Stat 	Base	AC1	AC2	AC3	AC4	AC5	AC6	AC7	AC8	AC9	AC10
    Armor 	0	5k	10k	15k	20k	25k	30k	35k	40k	45k	50k
    DPS taken 	1000	769	625	526	454	400	357	322	294	270	250
    DPS reduced by the last 5k armor 	0	231	144	99	72	55	43	35	28	24	20
    Relative DPS reduction by the last 5k armor 	0	23%	19%	16%	14%	12%	11%	10%	9%	8%	7.5%
    2.) Keep stacking stamina for ICC25 heroic, as you just "gained" 20% dodge from the icc debuff being removed.
    2.5) Dodge has always been useful, however it's usefulness (to "stack" it has theoretically decreased, as with the -20% debuff, other tanks were effected more by it than us. Agility no longer gives us armor neither.)
    - I believe you will find what you seek somewhere in this huge wall of text

    3.) Haste does have a cap but it's utterly ridiculous for bears.

    Do research before posting pl0x!
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  12. #32
    The Lightbringer Tharkkun's Avatar
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    We did ICC25 last night and things seemed fine. Granted we didn't do hm on every fight due to healers having a hard time adjusting with no grid. Overall though it was good. We have fester/pp/sindy left on Thursday so we'll see. I really didn't find myself popping cooldowns any more often than before except for trash. Trash sucked!

  13. #33
    I am having no problems with druid tanking - aoe or otherwise. My other character is a prot warrior so having a 6sec swipe cd was not really a big deal (although warriors do have shockwave to back it up).
    I love skull bash and charge on a short cd!

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Yohassakura View Post
    1.) Armor does effectively have a diminishing return as it gets worse as you stack more. Think of the reverse of armor penetration.


    Do research before posting pl0x!
    He did research, and quoted some of wowwiki to reference. Specifically:

    However, in terms of absolute time to live with respect to melee attacks, armor has no diminishing return effect. Given a constant melee DPS amount, each additional point of armor (whether it be from 0 to 1 or from 30000 to 30001) will increase the tank's time to live by the same effective amount. 1k additional armor increases time to live by approximately 9.47% (6.01% at level 80??), as shown by the graph. The formula for calculating time to live with respect to melee attacks is:
    Effective time to live = 1 / (1 - DR%) * Base time to live
    If you're viewing the benefit of armor to be increased TTL, the it's a linear benefit up to the armor cap. I don't know if this is really up to date though, some of it refers to lvl 70 and some to lvl 80.

  15. #35
    tab target???????

    yea I am on mob1 I hit tab and still on mob1
    I have to hit it 2+ times to get to a different mob
    wtf is up with that??????

    just now I was trying tanking which I believe sucks now as a bear.
    I know all you need is 277 gear to tank...
    or wait till 85
    F it I have other chrs to play this one is dead.

    I tab and still on the mob tab same, tab I am on a different mob...F its not even in the mobs I am fighting but a mob on the side that is not even engaged.
    I am sure that buzzard will fix the tab problem I am seeing. YEP all you need is a bigger glass.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Myzou View Post
    But... I said they worked? >_>

    I was asking if we should still macro them. :P
    Yes. I typically use a shift modifier to turn off Maul if I want to save rage. My macros are more like:

    #showtooltip Pulverize
    /cast Pulverize
    /cast [modifier:shift];Maul

    Now if I hold shift down I just Pulverize. If I don't then Maul will go off if it is ready to go off. And speaking of which, the rotations listed in the OP seem to be showing that Maul is used as part of the rotation, but it doesn't actually take up a slot in the rotation since it is off the GCD. Basically there is no difference now than previously except you are guaranteed to have to wait 3 seconds before Maul goes off vs. going off on auto attack based on your Haste.

    ---------- Post added 2010-10-13 at 03:04 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by dombow View Post
    Yep. I ran heroics with guildies so that we could learn stuff easily and I had to constantly remind my dps to NOT AoE right away anymore like theyre used to. It sucked cuz now im running heroics thinking I fail. I dont. I just havent learned it quite yet. And yes I did read ppl from PTRs explaining things but to be fair, a lot were doing PTR at what 85 and had Thrash? lol.
    Yet another person that fails to understand the difference between PTR and Beta. PTR is the public test realm and was just a test of the new features in 4.0.1. There was no way to level, there was no new content from Cataclysm, and there was no Thrash nor any other ability that you can't get until level 81 or higher. If someone was Thrashing at level 85 on the PTR then they were either on drugs and imagining it or just outright lying.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by tibben View Post
    Yes. I typically use a shift modifier to turn off Maul if I want to save rage. My macros are more like:

    #showtooltip Pulverize
    /cast Pulverize
    /cast [modifier:shift];Maul

    Now if I hold shift down I just Pulverize. If I don't then Maul will go off if it is ready to go off. And speaking of which, the rotations listed in the OP seem to be showing that Maul is used as part of the rotation, but it doesn't actually take up a slot in the rotation since it is off the GCD. Basically there is no difference now than previously except you are guaranteed to have to wait 3 seconds before Maul goes off vs. going off on auto attack based on your Haste.

    ---------- Post added 2010-10-13 at 03:04 PM ----------



    Yet another person that fails to understand the difference between PTR and Beta. PTR is the public test realm and was just a test of the new features in 4.0.1. There was no way to level, there was no new content from Cataclysm, and there was no Thrash nor any other ability that you can't get until level 81 or higher. If someone was Thrashing at level 85 on the PTR then they were either on drugs and imagining it or just outright lying.
    Wrong. Yet another person (me) that used the wrong term to describe what he meant. I meant Beta and accidentally said PTR.... MY MISTAKE.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Yohassakura View Post
    1.) Armor does effectively have a diminishing return as it gets worse as you stack more. Think of the reverse of armor penetration.

    - Wow Wiki
    Code:
    Stat 	Base	AC1	AC2	AC3	AC4	AC5	AC6	AC7	AC8	AC9	AC10
    Armor 	0	5k	10k	15k	20k	25k	30k	35k	40k	45k	50k
    DPS taken 	1000	769	625	526	454	400	357	322	294	270	250
    DPS reduced by the last 5k armor 	0	231	144	99	72	55	43	35	28	24	20
    Relative DPS reduction by the last 5k armor 	0	23%	19%	16%	14%	12%	11%	10%	9%	8%	7.5%
    2.) Keep stacking stamina for ICC25 heroic, as you just "gained" 20% dodge from the icc debuff being removed.
    2.5) Dodge has always been useful, however it's usefulness (to "stack" it has theoretically decreased, as with the -20% debuff, other tanks were effected more by it than us. Agility no longer gives us armor neither.)
    - I believe you will find what you seek somewhere in this huge wall of text

    3.) Haste does have a cap but it's utterly ridiculous for bears.

    Do research before posting pl0x!
    Thank you for that Yohassakura, much appreciated!

    ---------- Post added 2010-10-13 at 08:35 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Muezick View Post
    idk what the hell yalls problem is, i love the new bear changes, my threat is off the charts

    12k tps in a five man, wut??

    can't aoe tank?

    try tab targeting and spamming pulverize.

    i'm wearing basically icc10 gear, so my gear is pretty decent, idk what yalls gear is.

    bear tanking is harder now, a lot harder, but its funner

    also, OP's rotation suggestions are retarded

    why the f would u use pulverize AFTER you used maul and mangle?? you just felt like wasteing that extra crit i guess?

    the best single target TPS i have come across is this enrage >> Mangle >> Laceratex3 >> Pulverize >> maul >> Mangle >> ff (at this point it becomes priority, keep your pulverize proc up, use maul, mangle and ff any time they are off cooldown and keep your lacerate x3 up so long as your pulverize buff is up


    as for aoe tanking, start off with enrage >> swipe >> tabtarget pulverize/mangle/maul what ever you can push, you have 200% threat to throw around, i think the biggest problem you noobs are having is you aren't used to having to push more than two buttons.

    i mean no disrespect, but hate the player, not the game in this particular situation.


    you just got to relearn your class, thats all. try new things, dont be afraid to expirment and fail and you will get it.

    if you find its not to your likeing? well that sucks a lot, but you may have to reroll, but hey, at least they're completely overhauling 1-60 in two months, right?
    Everything you said is wrong. I'm sorry, but you really have no clue what you are doing.

    People are saying it is harder to AoE tank, granted it is.

    My rotation is not retarded, but thanks. I also listed 3 rotations for your choosing depending on your talents.

    #1 You want to put FF up first because it is opening threat and it is now sunders. (Which means more damage for you and the raid.) Using it 30 seconds into the fight is retarded.

    #2 I tried the rotation you listed and it is terrible. You have to let Lacerate tick 2-3 times before the pulverize crit + damage becomes useful.

    #3 Stop being so disrespectful, because you are making yourself look really bad.

    ---------- Post added 2010-10-13 at 08:40 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by dombow View Post
    Yeh I kept telling my guildies I couldnt wait to hit level 81 just so i could have thrash lol. I think rotations would be a little bit easier to manage once we have Thrash to put in.
    Alright so there is a lot of confusion I guess.

    Last time I checked the beta, thrash and swipe were on the same cooldown. So that means you can do 1 or the other.

    Thrash will help as it applies a dot, but we are going to have similar problems.

    Can anyone confirm this?
    Last edited by Infernix17; 2010-10-13 at 08:40 PM.

  19. #39
    Sounds to me like that would suck if they were on the same CD. =[

    I raided ICC10 last night and I think my opinion on bear tanking has changed again. I like it.. and I like the supposed nerf I heard about to DK tanks. I was outthreating him if I started on a mob at the same time he did and that was something I always had issues with before because he would hit one button and had instant 50k+ threat on the mob. Whereas I had to hit a few buttons to get to that.

    We did 10/12 in just under 3 hours. We can usually blow through 11/12 in just over 2 hours.. This is regular so yeh we suck blah blah, were getting there and we started late in the progression run.

    Anyways, after being a bear through 10/12 ICC10 and actually using CC through Crimson Halls (for practice as some of my guildies have never played preWOTLK). It was fun, a lot of fun. I really didnt have too many issues with things. Granted I am Raid leader so i was adamant of "NO AOE UNTIL SKULL DIES!" Which helped a ton.

    Not having DBM was a pain but helped my confidence in my team as it was pretty much auto pilot for bosses and stuff.

    So im pretty content with the feral changes now that I forced myself to raid as a bear and learn the new mechanics.

    /sigh now time to move on to another of my 6 80s and start figuring them out.

  20. #40
    I cannot see the builds posted here from "wowtal". All points to clean builds. Is it only me ?

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