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  1. #61
    Stood in the Fire uzumati's Avatar
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    In ICC last night we didnt have any issues, trash died fast and DPS /assisted the Pally tank (marking his target) while i tab Lacerated the mobs with swipe on cd ( maul glyphed and macro'd to lac ). On bosses it was impossible for anyone to come close to pulling off me. On LDW i solo tanked her and dps never got within 2K tps of me even once her stacks started building. On average i was at around 24K - 25K tps on the bosses. On DBS i literally had to stop attacking completely and make sure i blew a pulv to clear the lac stacks when the OT taunted or i would pull him right back off. Bears have stupid amounts of threat atm. In 5 mans as long as you dont end up with a bunch of retarded DPS'ers, that insist on full aoe, and /assist you to single target your mobs swipe on CD with Maul macro'd and glyphed while lacerating is way more that enough to keep the baddies interested in you. This is at level 80 using the macros posted earlier keep in mind that at 85 it seems that rage starvation might affect the macro forcing us to use the modifier version and not just dumping maul on cd by macro'ing it to Lac, Mangle, Pulv, and Swipe.

    PS: i do sense a threat nerf coming in the future for bears and DK's or a buff for Warrs an pallys.

  2. #62
    While I do like some of the changes to Bear, there are some that I'm still not sure of. After running a couple heroics (I'm in 251/264 gear) here's what I noticed. Any advice (by advice, I mean stuff that'll help, not the nerd rage crap) or tips would be appreciated.

    1. Rage- I didn't have any real rage issues which surprised me. I was able to keep up a basic rotation and not feel like I was Rage deprived.

    2. Threat- That 200% threat is crazy. I really didn't have to try to keep agro on a single target. Going to try it out in some ICC 10 HM's this weekend to see how it is fully buffed, although I really don't foresee any problems there.

    Here's where I have a few issues:

    AOE threat- While initial aoe threat isn't that bad, tab targetting/lacerate is a pain. I never really liked tab targetting cause it would always want to skip to a mob that was close, but wasn't in the pull, which wastes a second. I would like to think with Thrash at 81 is going to be a good thing, I also think blizz may decide to screw us over on that and put it on the same CD as swipe.

    Now while I do enjoy how they made bear tanking a bit more complex, I think they really need to adjust our aoe threat. Maybe lowering swipe to 4 sec or taking maul off CD so we have to watch our Rage more and not just spam our Lacerate/Maul macro's or increase the threat from Demoralizing Roar a bit. Either way though, DPS is going to have to adjust or they'll be eating dirt more often (although it is fun to watch a clothie do something stupid, pull threat, die, then blame us for his/her stupidity...)

    OH...does anyone have any decent mouseover targetting macro's? Just want to get away from using tab targetting since it's not very reliable...

  3. #63
    Stood in the Fire uzumati's Avatar
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    /cast [@mouseover] <Spell>

    I use

    /cast [@mouseover] Growl
    /cast [@mouseover] Faerie Fire (Feral)

    on mobs that look like they are starting to wander toward the healers and dpsers when they arnt /assisting the correct target
    Last edited by uzumati; 2010-10-15 at 04:14 PM.

  4. #64
    ICC 25: Notices:

    Single target threat on saurfang + trash mobs (so far): 20-35k TPS. (And up to 75k on festergut while tanking him first! That buff is crazy for our threat.)
    AOE threat: Pretty damn insane - So far pretty much having our prot pally sit on the sidelines. I also ended with 9k DPS on gunship (me tanking the adds that spawn on your own ship) - other trash packs are insane dps too because of the buff to swipe damage. I was doing 10-17k DPS on some of the trash packs before gunship.
    Shield wall: Awesome.
    Health: Gained around 1k hp or so fully raid buffed in icc.
    Average Equipped iLevel: 273.75
    Reforged: Pretty much all my haste possible to Mastery
    Last edited by Yohassakura; 2010-10-14 at 08:27 PM.
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  5. #65
    Oh I forgot to mention, there seemed to be little difference in survivability when I put on dps trinkets, rings, neck and cloak. With chill gone we should probably just go with dps sets for the most part heh.

  6. #66
    Sorry for no replies guys, it looks like every single question got answered though.

    We will have to see what the do about Swipe and Thrash, but lets hope they are off separate cooldowns.

    Ive been heavily looking into our Mastery and it is absolutely incredible.

    The more Mastery you have the better. I had 65%-85% uptime and over 170,000 healing on Saurfang. (The fight lasted 2 minutes and the tanks taunt every 20 seconds) So for the minute that I had him I healed for 170292 with an uptime of 69.7%.

    Savage Defense was also my most healing taken.

    I'm trying to work actual numbers, but I am leaning towards reforge everything you can into Mastery.

    ---------- Post added 2010-10-14 at 10:06 PM ----------

    Updated with our Mastery!:

    Our Mastery is significantly OP. I am going to use the numbers I got last night.

    Savage Defense is considered to be a "bubble" as it reduced the damage on the next hit. As we are all aware, the ICC 30% buff increases absorbing effects.

    Using my stats with 17.82 Mastery (70% extra absorb on Savage Defense)
    Fully raid buffed, I have 7,200 AP. Savage Defense takes 0.65*1.7=1.105 Which is 110.5% of AP of that and turns it into a bubble.
    So I gain a free bubble of 7956 damage that I can take. (A priest bubble outside of ICC only gives 11k.)
    You then take 7,956 damage and apply the 30% buff to get 10,342

    Inside of ICC, with a crit chance of 56% (without Pulverize), you have a 28% chance to get a free bubble that will absorb around 10,000 damage.
    Inside of ICC, with a crit chance of 65% (with Pulverize), you have a 32.5% chance to get a free bubble that will absorb around 10,000 damage.

    It's pretty obvious you want to keep Pulverize up.

    I will add, since the "Chill of the Throne" debuff is gone, you should find more AP giving gear. Some good choices are:
    Rings:
    -Ashen Band of Endless Vengeance (Yes, change your ring for the AGI/DPS ring.)
    -Frostbrood Sapphire Ring
    Cloaks:
    -Shadowvault Slayer's Cloak
    -Recovered Scarlet Onslaught Cape
    Neck:
    -Sindragosa's Cruel Claw
    -Rimetooth Pendant

    ---------- Post added 2010-10-14 at 10:24 PM ----------



    Updated with AoE tanking!

    AoE Tanking:
    Yes, we now have some pretty bad AoE tanking, although there are many ways around it. Here is a really good rotation you should use.

    Thorns > Swipe > Mangle > Laceratex1 **>** Swipe > Mangle > Laceratzex1 **>** Swipe > Mangle > Laceratex1

    **Tab Target** You are really going to have to Tab Target, Thorns is going to help keep some good initial aggro, although in time you will have to apply some more.

    Swipe's damage is really OP now and if you do it correctly, you won't have any AoE problems.

    In Cataclysm, we will have Thrash, although I haven't gotten a straight answer on it yet. When I was playing the Beta, Swipe and Thrash were on the same Cooldown. (You could only do one or the other.) Although, most likely they will be off of separate cooldowns and AoE will be easy.
    Last edited by Infernix17; 2010-10-14 at 10:59 PM.

  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by Infernix17 View Post
    Using my stats with 17.82 Mastery (70% extra absorb on Savage Defense)
    Fully raid buffed, I have 7,200 AP. Savage Defense takes 135% of that and turns it into a bubble.
    Don't post here much but have been reading the thread. Yes the mastery is pretty amazing but I do not think you are right about the 135% of AP. I believe the wording entails that you get a 70% multiplying modifier and not added to the original 65%. Therefore:
    0.65*1.7=1.105 Which is 110.5% of AP.

    Oh and does it take into effect the AP gained from Vengeance. With the extra hp buff in icc of 30% does it take your hp after that. If so If you had 7000 ap raid buffed and had say 70k hp. You would get 14k total AP when you are the MT being hit once Vengeance reaches max. If you had 70% extra from mastery you'd get a shield of 15470 (Using 0.65*1.7). But then does it double dip in the sense you then get the 30% again due to the absorbtion increase if so you would get 20111 damage absorbed.
    Last edited by Styxy; 2010-10-14 at 10:30 PM. Reason: More thoughts

  8. #68
    The Lightbringer Tharkkun's Avatar
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    Unless it's suddenly bugged now the ICC buff doesn't effect our savage defense shield. You should look at the combat log.

  9. #69
    Well in that case does Vengeance get effected by the HP buff, and does shield get effected by Vengeace AP gains.

  10. #70
    The Lightbringer Tharkkun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Styxy View Post
    Well in that case does Vengeance get effected by the HP buff, and does shield get effected by Vengeace AP gains.
    I believe people have confirmed savage defense does double dip currently with vengeance. I'll try and parse my logs tonight and see but it should be pretty easy to check.

  11. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by Styxy View Post
    Well in that case does Vengeance get effected by the HP buff, and does shield get effected by Vengeace AP gains.
    Those are good questions, I completely forgot to monitor Vengeance. If it does, it wouldn't be hard to add in. I would suspect it does.

    ---------- Post added 2010-10-14 at 10:52 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Styxy View Post
    Don't post here much but have been reading the thread. Yes the mastery is pretty amazing but I do not think you are right about the 135% of AP. I believe the wording entails that you get a 70% multiplying modifier and not added to the original 65%. Therefore:
    0.65*1.7=1.105 Which is 110.5% of AP.

    Oh and does it take into effect the AP gained from Vengeance. With the extra hp buff in icc of 30% does it take your hp after that. If so If you had 7000 ap raid buffed and had say 70k hp. You would get 14k total AP when you are the MT being hit once Vengeance reaches max. If you had 70% extra from mastery you'd get a shield of 15470 (Using 0.65*1.7). But then does it double dip in the sense you then get the 30% again due to the absorbtion increase if so you would get 20111 damage absorbed.
    I think you are right about the modifier. That was fail on my part.

    I have parses, but I wasn't actively watching.

    ---------- Post added 2010-10-14 at 11:01 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Tharkkun View Post
    Unless it's suddenly bugged now the ICC buff doesn't effect our savage defense shield. You should look at the combat log.
    I am almost certain it does apply to the ICC 30% buff, although there were bugs yesterday that all absorbs weren't affected by the buff.

    ---------- Post added 2010-10-14 at 11:11 PM ----------

    Also, last night, I had 94,000 HP fully raid buffed including feast and flasks.

    So I would have a total of 16,600 AP when Vengeance reaches max. Using 0.65*1.7 I would get a shield of 18,343 and if it does apply to the ICC buff I would have a shield of 23,845.9.

    That seems highly unlikely.

    Things to ask though:

    1)Does Vengeance work with the ICC buff?
    2)Does Savage Defense work with the ICC buff?
    3)Does Vengeance work with Savage Defense?

    On my Parse it shows my average absorb from "Savage Defense" was 7,000 and Absorbs were bugged in ICC last night. So that basically lines up exactly with what I had before the ICC buff and Vengeance.

    ---------- Post added 2010-10-15 at 04:12 AM ----------

    So I finally figured out that

    1) Vengeance does work with the ICC buff.

    2) Savage defense does work with the ICC buff.

    3) Vengeance does work with Savage Defense.

    With these 3 things answered Bears have an amazingly OP Mastery, although with 1 downfall.

    Like always, Savage Defense only takes 1 hit, so whether it be a 500 dot tick, 1,000 aura tick or 40k hit, Savage Defense will fade. It is a little bit RNG based as it can be wasted with a 400 dot tick or sometimes save your life when it absorbs a 20,000 Soul reaper hit.

    As far as I go, in ICC fully buffed with max Vengeance My minimum absorb will be 23,000 and my maximum will be 29,300.
    Last edited by Infernix17; 2010-10-14 at 11:30 PM.

  12. #72
    Mechagnome
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    This is pretty legit bro

  13. #73
    Stood in the Fire Cyphran's Avatar
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    RE THORNS:

    Did a little bit of playing around with this ability and forms.

    Cast in Full Tanking gear - Caster form 655ap 158spell power - Unbuffed.
    Switched to BEAR 4826ap = 2337 damage Thorns ticks
    Switched to CAT (in bear gear) 5266ap = 2337 damage Thorns ticks
    Switched to NAKED BEAR form 562ap = 2337 damage Thorns ticks
    Switched to NAKED CAT form 638ap = 2337 damage Thorns ticks

    Cast in Naked Caster Form 210ap 137spell power - Unbuffed
    Switched to BEAR 4826ap = 645 damage Thorns ticks
    Switched to CAT (in bear gear) 5266ap = 645 damage Thorns ticks
    Switched to NAKED BEAR form 532ap 137spell power = 645 damage Thorns ticks
    Switched to NAKED CAT form 638ap 137spell power = 645 damage Thorns ticks

    Cast in Full Healing gear - 235ap 3225spell power - Unbuffed
    Attacked in Healing Gear = 1758 damage Thorns ticks
    Switched to Tank Gear Caster form - 166spell power 524ap = 1758 damage Thorns ticks

    Conclusion:
    Thorns damage is calculated on the gear worn when cast. It does not alter after form switching. I'm a little confused as to why a 440ap 21sp gain in caster translates to around 1800 extra thorns damage though. If this is the case though, I'm a little curious as to why 655ap 158sp generates ticks so much (almost 600) higher than 235ap 3225sp. Not sure what its generating its numbers off.
    Last edited by Cyphran; 2010-10-15 at 09:46 AM.

  14. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by Cyphran View Post
    RE THORNS:

    Did a little bit of playing around with this ability and forms.

    Cast in Full Tanking gear - Caster form 655ap 158spell power - Unbuffed.
    Switched to BEAR 4826ap = 2337 damage Thorns ticks
    Switched to CAT (in bear gear) 5266ap = 2337 damage Thorns ticks
    Switched to NAKED BEAR form 562ap = 2337 damage Thorns ticks
    Switched to NAKED CAT form 638ap = 2337 damage Thorns ticks

    Cast in Naked Caster Form 210ap 137spell power - Unbuffed
    Switched to BEAR 4826ap = 645 damage Thorns ticks
    Switched to CAT (in bear gear) 5266ap = 645 damage Thorns ticks
    Switched to NAKED BEAR form 532ap 137spell power = 645 damage Thorns ticks
    Switched to NAKED CAT form 638ap 137spell power = 645 damage Thorns ticks

    Cast in Full Healing gear - 235ap 3225spell power - Unbuffed
    Attacked in Healing Gear = 1758 damage Thorns ticks
    Switched to Tank Gear Caster form - 166spell power 524ap = 1758 damage Thorns ticks

    Conclusion:
    Thorns damage is calculated on the gear worn when cast. It does not alter after form switching. I'm a little confused as to why a 440ap 21sp gain in caster translates to around 1800 extra thorns damage though. If this is the case though, I'm a little curious as to why 655ap 158sp generates ticks so much (almost 600) higher than 235ap 3225sp. Not sure what its generating its numbers off.
    Good to know it doesn't alter when switching, although I think Thorns needs to be changed entirely.

    Either make it the way it was before or change it so it can be cast in any form.

    If they don't change it, I don't see a Feral cat popping out of form and wasting DPS to give a tank thorns. Same with Boomkins and even resto druids.

    I know resto druids are already out of form, although it takes a full GCD, during new content a resto druid will most likely not have time wasting a GCD on thorns.

  15. #75
    Am I right in say that I can now ditch my armor which had strength (Neck, rings etc) months back I was told that this Strength and Agility should be used on Neck, Rings?

  16. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by Villordsutch View Post
    Am I right in say that I can now ditch my armor which had strength (Neck, rings etc) months back I was told that this Strength and Agility should be used on Neck, Rings?
    Yes, you should now.

    The more agility the better.

    We used items with Strength, because it came with Armor, defense and dodge not because of the strength.

  17. #77
    I call for stickiness!

    With the Bear guide now outdated, and me migrating to my paladin coming Cataclysm, if you're willing to take up this job yourself, you're more than welcome.
    Quote Originally Posted by Qieth
    I don't do math, blind assumptions work so much better for me.

  18. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by arel00 View Post
    I call for stickiness!

    With the Bear guide now outdated, and me migrating to my paladin coming Cataclysm, if you're willing to take up this job yourself, you're more than welcome.
    I would love to take over. I was planning on it anyways, so why not. =P

    Arel, I greatly appreciated your Bear thread and I hope to keep the same quality that you provided.

    Have fun on the Paladin side. =]

    Edit: Also, I really don't know how to get this stickied, so any advice would be nice.

    Also changing the name of the thread to "4.0.1 Bear Guide" would be nice.
    Last edited by Infernix17; 2010-10-15 at 11:35 AM.

  19. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by Infernix17 View Post
    Yes, you should now.

    The more agility the better.

    We used items with Strength, because it came with Armor, defense and dodge not because of the strength.

    Thank you for that, will start amending tonight.

  20. #80
    Stood in the Fire Cyphran's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Villordsutch View Post
    Am I right in say that I can now ditch my armor which had strength (Neck, rings etc) months back I was told that this Strength and Agility should be used on Neck, Rings?
    Yeah, stam is about the same on equal level necks and rings now. So all you have is maybe a little dodge rating, but transferring to Agility will make up more dodge than that anyway.

    No more tanking rings/necks for us. I Regemmed my Woodins and Bone Collous for tanking. I gained stam and I gained dodge.

    Fun Fact.
    Tanking 277 ICC rep Ring
    68 strength
    130 stam
    Socket
    84dodge
    55hit

    Agil DPS 277 ICC rep Ring
    88 agility
    136 stam!
    Socket
    59 crit
    59 hit

    I haven't seen anything to the contrary, so assuming 1 agil is still > 1 dodge rating... the dps ring has more dodge, stam hit and crit. Too unfamiliar with the proc to make a proper decision. I suppose the proc will push the tank ring ahead, but it'd be close.
    Last edited by Cyphran; 2010-10-15 at 10:40 AM.

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