The Bear Guide - Cataclysm Edition

[Infernix17]

While Agility may be good. Remember that Blizzard want all the tanking class to use the same items, Cloak, Necklace, Rings, and Trinkets. We will also be sharing Tanking Relic with Blood DK and Paladin.

We talked about druids in bear form also getting AP from strength. Strength won't appear on leather and no piece should have Str and Agi together, so it's not like they would really double dip. That let us still have tanking necks, rings and cloaks with strength on them that are attractive to all 4 tanking classes.

Str is still 2 AP for bears along with 2 AP from Agi.

I just want to said that since couple of you and the OP want to go all Agi.

Sure, Srength still gives the same amount of AP. Although, Agility increases our crit and dodge(no longer increases our Armor) and for the remainder of ICC, agility items gives more avoidance than any strength piece would give.

With the crit that Agility gives, it allows for a higher proc chance on Savage Defense which therefore increases our avoidance. Mastery > Dodge.

Come cataclysm, this will probably change.

I also still suggest wearing tanking trinkets, the more health you have the better. Although, if you want super crazy threat and more crit for a higher uptime of Savage Defense then there is no problem with using DPS trinkets for the time being.

---------- Post added 2010-10-16 at 07:14 AM ----------

They may want us to share tanking accessories but that doesn't mean they'll design them to be optimal for us. When DPS gear has the same or more stam than tanking gear, why would I take the piece with Str on it over the piece with Agi? Agi = dodge, crit, and AP while Str = only AP. And when it comes to relics, I'd rather reforge Haste into something useful on an Agi relic than be stuck with parry on a Str one since you can only reforge part of the stat. Not to say that no tanking accessories will be good for us, just that as of now it appears that Agi gear will provide more benefit. I still expect to use tanking trinkets though.

100% correct.

---------- Post added 2010-10-16 at 07:16 AM ----------

I am an Inscriptionist, and I found, to my dismay, that the shoulder Inscription that used to increase dodge rating by 60 and defense rating by 15, converted to increase dodge rating by 60 and parry rating by 15. Obviously, parry is pointless. I may be missing some of the math, but unless the DPS version of the Inscription-only shoulder enhancement (120 AP and 15 critical strike) is actually better than the Hodir tank one (20 dodge and 22 stamina), I am very frustrated that my profession-specific benefit is not longer actually a benefit.

I would love to be wrong--has anyone run those numbers?

Wow, that is absolute garbage. I had no clue they changed it.

Well, I would go with the DPS one from Inscription: 120 attack power and 15 critical strike rating

[exochaft]

Do you know that only the plate item get parry?

Tanking Cloak, Necklace, Relic, Rings, and Trinkets will not have parry. In fact if you look at the cata tanking Relic, Relic of Khaz'goroth, there is no parry, just mastery rating.

Actually, there are items on the beta that are STR tanking items and have parry rating on them. If I recall correctly (don't have the beta up in front of me), there's a honored reputation tanking neckpiece in Hyjal that has parry rating on it. There's also a couple of tanking trinkets that look very nice, until you see the on-use or proc involves parry rating.

Be that as it may, there are a lot of STR tanking items that you'll probably yank very early on and not have a second thought about them. Why? Because they're still really good! Once you get Revered with Thezarane as a druid tank, you'll pick up both the AGI and STR rings, because they're 346 ilvl (that's basically heroic blue level) and they're great for tanking. What I have noticed is that the AGI items favor crit/haste while the STR items favor hit/exp/dodge/mastery... I'm not saying this is exactly the case, but most items (especially if they come from the same source, like the JP vendor) follow this logic. In reality, you get two different things out of a STR and AGI item, but they're both good for tanking... and if you're wondering, I tested some items (like the Thezarane rings) to see how the avoidance of AGI compared with dodge rating, and you'll get the same avoidance out of both raid buffed approximately.

Here's the beauty of the situation: since stamina values are standardized, you don't have to choose items based off of stamina anymore. You can choose items based off of avoidance or threat or mitigation... the HP bars are pretty much given to you for free.

[RedDeadDawn]

Hey there,

I waited a bit to reply about the Swipe/Thrash shared CD thing until the beta realms were back up tonight. I was pretty sure that they did NOT share a cooldown, and hadn't been for the past almost 2mo I've been on beta. But, I wanted to make sure so I didn't make an ass of myself. As it stands, while typing this I'm alt-tabbed in beta on a targeting dummy and I can say for certain that NOW (to keep it neutral) there is no shared CD for the two. The abilities are awesome together, and have MORE than completed our AOE threat gap that the new Swipe changes underwent. In runs I tank, it is very rare for a mob to get away from me when cycling between the two. Just thought I should put that info out there and hopefully clear up any misunderstandings. CHEERS

RDD

[Infernix17]

Hey there,

I waited a bit to reply about the Swipe/Thrash shared CD thing until the beta realms were back up tonight. I was pretty sure that they did NOT share a cooldown, and hadn't been for the past almost 2mo I've been on beta. But, I wanted to make sure so I didn't make an ass of myself. As it stands, while typing this I'm alt-tabbed in beta on a targeting dummy and I can say for certain that NOW (to keep it neutral) there is no shared CD for the two. The abilities are awesome together, and have MORE than completed our AOE threat gap that the new Swipe changes underwent. In runs I tank, it is very rare for a mob to get away from me when cycling between the two. Just thought I should put that info out there and hopefully clear up any misunderstandings. CHEERS

RDD

Yup, I already updated the post with:
In Cataclysm, we will have Thrash and it is not shared with Swipe so we will have an extra AoE ability. Just hang in there until Cataclysm.

I logged onto the beta and figured it out too.

Thanks for the update though. =]

[Oweena]

Right now I have no problem spamming through instances with only using swipe+maul and tab targetting my lacerate+mangle..

Ofc I also use a thorns every pull but in reality, I could hold agro against anyone with the new swipe it honestly hits like a freight train!

[Infernix17]

Right now I have no problem spamming through instances with only using swipe+maul and tab targetting my lacerate+mangle..

Ofc I also use a thorns every pull but in reality, I could hold agro against anyone with the new swipe it honestly hits like a freight train!

Yeah, people that are complaining just need something to complain about. It really isn't that bad, sure it requires you to ACTUALLY work, but it isn't like we can't AoE at all and our class is broken.

It's exactly how TBC was, tab targeting.

---------- Post added 2010-10-16 at 08:29 AM ----------

+18 Stam = 272 using my formula, 1 Sta = 15.159375 Health (Bear form, Heart of the Wild, Leather Specialization and Mark or Kings)

+10 Stats = 100 HP, +10 Agility = 22AP, .22% dodge and .06% crit, +10 Strength = 22AP.

+275 HP = 275 HP

If you want more HP then enchant for 275 HP and if you want more avoidance then enchant for +10 stats.

It would be between

[Auroro]

Actually, there are items on the beta that are STR tanking items and have parry rating on them. If I recall correctly (don't have the beta up in front of me), there's a honored reputation tanking neckpiece in Hyjal that has parry rating on it. There's also a couple of tanking trinkets that look very nice, until you see the on-use or proc involves parry rating.

Be that as it may, there are a lot of STR tanking items that you'll probably yank very early on and not have a second thought about them. Why? Because they're still really good! Once you get Revered with Thezarane as a druid tank, you'll pick up both the AGI and STR rings, because they're 346 ilvl (that's basically heroic blue level) and they're great for tanking. What I have noticed is that the AGI items favor crit/haste while the STR items favor hit/exp/dodge/mastery... I'm not saying this is exactly the case, but most items (especially if they come from the same source, like the JP vendor) follow this logic. In reality, you get two different things out of a STR and AGI item, but they're both good for tanking... and if you're wondering, I tested some items (like the Thezarane rings) to see how the avoidance of AGI compared with dodge rating, and you'll get the same avoidance out of both raid buffed approximately.

Here's the beauty of the situation: since stamina values are standardized, you don't have to choose items based off of stamina anymore. You can choose items based off of avoidance or threat or mitigation... the HP bars are pretty much given to you for free.

I check the Stuff in wowhead and you are right however i think the Epic stuff are build to work around all the tanks.

[Yohassakura]

**I am more than willing to keep this active and change it as needed when there is proof. I hope this guide helps you find what you are looking for and if it doesn't feel free to ask or PM me.

Haste: Haste is the least important stat for us. As always, it never hurts to have haste, although it is just the least useful for us.
Haste is useful because it:
-Increases how fast we attack, which increase the chance we gain an extra attack from Fury Swipes.
-Increases how fast we attack, which increase the chance of more critical strikes which increases our damage, TPS and Mastery.

Technically, it just does the two following things:
1.) Increases rate of attacks (hit, crit, dodged and parried attacks). Although, it increases the rate or how many we get, not "the chance", haste doesn't "increase the chance" of anything, it increases the rate or speed of attack, that is all.
2.) Increases rage generated from white attacks * (- As there are more white attacks.)

(basically, nitpicking your use of english)

Dodge: Dodge is the bears only real Defensive stat, since we can't block or parry with our claws, we rely on Dodge and Stamina.
With the lift of the -20% dodge debuff, dodge is a much more useful stat than it used to be, although for the time being, the 30% ICC buff still makes Stam more beneficial.

Dodge improves from agility and dodge rating.
1 Agi = 0.0225641% Dodge
45.2525 Dodge Rating = 1% Dodge

Dodge, Miss (although defense rating is gone, we still have a nice chunk of miss) and Armor are all defensive stats.
Dodge was still the same as it was before in terms of usefulness.

Where did you get your figures for agility and dodge rating? - The old figures were (Pre-DR);

47.84688995 agility = 1% dodge (PRE DR) - Your figure states 44.31agi = 1%
45.25018692 dodge rating = 1% dodge (PRE DR) - Ever so slightly off

If there's a new dodge formula / calculation i'd like to see it.

Rotation.

Personally, i'd say that the rotation would be to get your normal debuffs up first -
FF(F), Mangle, demo roar -> then whilst stacking up lacerates, use mangle as it comes off cd.

After the initial 3 stacks of lacerate, pulverise then focus on slowly building up lacerates 1 at a time, whilst using mangle, ff(f) and swipe as fillers as necessary. An 18 second pulverise means that you can slowly build lacerates up, and as you get your third lacerate or slightly after it's about time to use pulverise again. I feel that this gives a smoother rotation.

So, after the intial encounter, with 1 pulverise already ticking: lacerate, mangle, ff(f), swipe, lacerate, mangle, ff(f), swipe, lacerate*6 seconds left on pulverise, mangle, ff(f), pulverise, repeat (Obviously including mauls when you can do them) - Also note that mangle has a 30% chance on a lacerate tick to come off CD so just miss out swipe then i'd say as it costs 30 rage (going to be changed to 15 rage), unless you can afford it then you might want to miss out ff(f).

[Powerogue]

It looks like we have to go back to the olden days. single target down what the tank is targeting unless you have someone to misdirect threat to him.

with our new abilities it looks like we can do a lot of threat on one or two mobs, and a tiny amount of threat on the rest, enough to keep them off the healer usually. looks like we mainly need to teach the dps how to not lolAoE again.

[Beetlejuice]

Ofc I also use a thorns every pull but in reality, I could hold agro against anyone with the new swipe it honestly hits like a freight train!

Dont forget in lvl 85 you will loose that 2t10 bonus so no more 30% dmg buff. Luckily by that you will have thrash to fill the gap. But just saying, don't get overexcited. A lot of our ompf comes from inflated stats and op set boni both of which will be gone in cata.

[bavarcarus]

Technically, it just does the two following things:
1.) Increases rate of attacks (hit, crit, dodged and parried attacks). Although, it increases the rate or how many we get, not "the chance", haste doesn't "increase the chance" of anything, it increases the rate or speed of attack, that is all.
2.) Increases rage generated from white attacks

(basically, nitpicking your use of english)

Well, it might not read very cleanly, but it should be pointed out that haste is related to the proc rate of furry swipes and savage defense. So it does at least increase threat and mitigation somewhat. I assume it still causes more ooc procs.

[Karanan]

is 225 armor enchant better than 22 agi? I've always used the agi for the extra crit/ap/dodge etc...

[Niter]

It's exactly how TBC was, tab targeting

I have tanked ICC 25 yesterday and a lot of heroics today. Every single tank outperforms me in AoE threat. And I do happen to have better gear, so I am not really happy about it. Paladins can keep up to 3 targets on them very well and Death Knights can do even better with just DnD and Blood Boil. Warriors are more like us, they need some time. It was very frustrating. Even re-gemming and changing enchants to improve my threat, it still was not really good.

I think what Blizzard has done is kind of flawed. CC is great and focusing mobs is great, that teaches DPS how to fight and it does make tanking not so faceroll. However, they should have made it different: you CC targets that are dangerous, you focus fire targets that are 'harder' (because it is not, we just have to work more for something trivial!) first instead of doing AoE. That is good, but that should happen because of how the dungeon plays out and mob's abilities, it is a way for us to address what they can do against us. Simply tuning down our AoE tanking feels 'too gimmicky', in my opinion.

I definitely do not want to keep TABing through mobs, that is annoying. It does not show proper skill. I use a mouseover macro to Lacerate things since TBC, and a monkey could do that. It feels like unnecessary extra work, not something that 'men can do it, boys shy away from it'. I would much rather be ready to Feral Charge another pack or loose mobs, interrupting casters, watching the surroundings, focusing on one danger at a time and so on. They seem to have done to us exactly what happened to Prot Warriors some time ago. Tanking did not really need to be 'harder'. Tanking is more about gearing properly, awareness, knowing how to react to situations, fast reflexes and guts to be the one who can never drop the ball and being ready to compensate for others mistakes.

I think it is more about 'quality of life', honestly. So far, my bear that is my main character since I started playing is the tank I like the least. It sure is the best at soaking up damage, it is defensively better than ever. But playing it for me is just not fun any more if things stay this way. A simple change would make a world of difference: half the Rage cost on Swipe (30 is just too much), half the CD, half the damage. I think that would make it a lot better.

Of course, that is just my opinion

[Infernix17]

Technically, it just does the two following things:
1.) Increases rate of attacks (hit, crit, dodged and parried attacks). Although, it increases the rate or how many we get, not "the chance", haste doesn't "increase the chance" of anything, it increases the rate or speed of attack, that is all.
2.) Increases rage generated from white attacks * (- As there are more white attacks.)

(basically, nitpicking your use of english)



Dodge, Miss (although defense rating is gone, we still have a nice chunk of miss) and Armor are all defensive stats.
Dodge was still the same as it was before in terms of usefulness.

Where did you get your figures for agility and dodge rating? - The old figures were (Pre-DR);

47.84688995 agility = 1% dodge (PRE DR) - Your figure states 44.31agi = 1%
45.25018692 dodge rating = 1% dodge (PRE DR) - Ever so slightly off

If there's a new dodge formula / calculation i'd like to see it.

Rotation.

Personally, i'd say that the rotation would be to get your normal debuffs up first -
FF(F), Mangle, demo roar -> then whilst stacking up lacerates, use mangle as it comes off cd.

After the initial 3 stacks of lacerate, pulverise then focus on slowly building up lacerates 1 at a time, whilst using mangle, ff(f) and swipe as fillers as necessary. An 18 second pulverise means that you can slowly build lacerates up, and as you get your third lacerate or slightly after it's about time to use pulverise again. I feel that this gives a smoother rotation.

So, after the intial encounter, with 1 pulverise already ticking: lacerate, mangle, ff(f), swipe, lacerate, mangle, ff(f), swipe, lacerate*6 seconds left on pulverise, mangle, ff(f), pulverise, repeat (Obviously including mauls when you can do them) - Also note that mangle has a 30% chance on a lacerate tick to come off CD so just miss out swipe then i'd say as it costs 30 rage (going to be changed to 15 rage), unless you can afford it then you might want to miss out ff(f).

Alright so,

For haste: the more haste you have, the more attacks you will get in, this will ultimately increase how many Fury Swipes we get. This isn't the ElitistJerks guide, I'm trying to show what you benefit from when you have more haste. You are right, I worded it wrong by saying "chance". - Fixed.

I got my dodge stats from Reesi on Doomhammer in the guild Drow.

He states:
1 Agi = 0.0225641% Dodge
1 Dodge Rating = 0.0220982% Dodge
45.2525 Dodge Rating = 1% Dodge

There's going to be a lot of choice for rotations, I know you said "personally" although, I think that rotation is wrong. The only way that rotation becomes good is if you get extremely lucky with free mangles from Berserk procs. Otherwise Pulverize is better than Swipe and FF combined.

My Pulverize hits for 6-10k damage
My swipe (single target) hits for 2-4k damage
My FF hits for 1-2k damage

On my logs, I did 12 swipes for 20,584. I did 10 Pulverizes for 67,000.

They are also nerfing swipe. Also Lacerate is huge damage + threat now, so after pulverizing, stacking them back up to 3 doesn't hurt. Its an opinion.

---------- Post added 2010-10-16 at 10:32 PM ----------

I have tanked ICC 25 yesterday and a lot of heroics today. Every single tank outperforms me in AoE threat. And I do happen to have better gear, so I am not really happy about it. Paladins can keep up to 3 targets on them very well and Death Knights can do even better with just DnD and Blood Boil. Warriors are more like us, they need some time. It was very frustrating. Even re-gemming and changing enchants to improve my threat, it still was not really good.

First off, warriors have the best AOE damage and threat when specced properly for it.

Second off, Changing 1 ability shouldn't make you hate a class. The point of the game is to kill bosses not trash, so if you are going to have a class that has an amazing threat, damage and survivability but wont play it because 1 ability that is meant for trash throws you off, then I don't know what to tell you.

You also have to realize, we are getting thrash in Cataclysm.

Thrash > Swipe > Mangle > Lacerate > Thrash > Swipe > Mangle > Lacerate.

But thats probably to hard for some people.

[Auroro]

Infernix17, can you tell me why we need to reach 20 Mastery when the 100% is at 17 Mastery.


100%-32%=68%/4=17*46=782 Mastery rating

[Voytrekk]

@Infernix

You do realize that just because an ability doesn't do as much damage as another, doesnt mean that its bad. FF doesn't hit that hard in the xpac, yet it was our 3rd best threat ability. I do realize that its gone down a bit in threat, but to not use it at all is stupid. Besides being our only ranged ability and aplying Sunders, it is also a great ability when you don't have much rage. As for swipe in single target, I agree that it should not be used.

[Yohassakura]

There's going to be a lot of choice for rotations, I know you said "personally" although, I think that rotation is wrong. The only way that rotation becomes good is if you get extremely lucky with free mangles from Berserk procs. Otherwise Pulverize is better than Swipe and FF combined.

My Pulverize hits for 6-10k damage
My swipe (single target) hits for 2-4k damage
My FF hits for 1-2k damage

On my logs, I did 12 swipes for 20,584. I did 10 Pulverizes for 67,000.

They are also nerfing swipe. Also Lacerate is huge damage + threat now, so after pulverizing, stacking them back up to 3 doesn't hurt. Its an opinion.[COLOR="red"]

Hmm, according to EJs math, and my parses, my swipe did more damage, and more threat compared to pulverise

Log
EJ Threat / damage calcs

However yes, nerfing swipe will be lame for the rotation.
Being as swipe scales with AP and pulverise not so much, it'll be nicer at later levels. I wouldnt think that blizz would want us to just spam lacerates and pulverises (with the occasional mangle).

I'll take a look at the combat rating stats later on.

[Infernix17]

Hmm, according to EJs math, and my parses, my swipe did more damage, and more threat compared to pulverise

Log
EJ Threat / damage calcs

However yes, nerfing swipe will be lame for the rotation.
Being as swipe scales with AP and pulverise not so much, it'll be nicer at later levels. I wouldnt think that blizz would want us to just spam lacerates and pulverises (with the occasional mangle).

I'll take a look at the combat rating stats later on.

Well keep in mind, you are using Mangle off CD and for the 8-10 seconds Lacerate is on the target from the free Berserk proc. I just don't think swipe and FF are going to be used as much.

I think it will be: Pulverize > Mangle > Laceratex3 > swipe > Mangle > Pulverize - Always keeping mangle on CD and finding gaps to use swipe. (There will be a gap in between each Mangle and Pulverize every single time.)

I also don't know why my Swipe only did 20,000 damage.

Our Pulverize, Mangle and Lacerate damage is all the exact same. Not swipe though.

---------- Post added 2010-10-17 at 12:19 AM ----------

Infernix17, can you tell me why we need to reach 20 Mastery when the 100% is at 17 Mastery.


100%-32%=68%/4=17*46=782 Mastery rating

I have 17.52 Mastery and I am at 70% with +437 Mastery rating.

Your math is wrong.

Also, there is no possible way to reach 20 right now, that highest would be 18-19 and that would be 75-80.% (This is as a Bear tank in tank gear, I don't know about other specs/classes.)
I haven't gotten an exact number on when to stop Mastery, because it collides with a lot of things. I just didn't want to change it to a false number so I kept it where it was.


---------- Post added 2010-10-17 at 12:22 AM ----------

@Infernix

You do realize that just because an ability doesn't do as much damage as another, doesnt mean that its bad. FF doesn't hit that hard in the xpac, yet it was our 3rd best threat ability. I do realize that its gone down a bit in threat, but to not use it at all is stupid. Besides being our only ranged ability and aplying Sunders, it is also a great ability when you don't have much rage. As for swipe in single target, I agree that it should not be used.

I never said it was bad. In my rotation you still use Swipe.

FFF is our worst ability for threat and damage and it is only used for Sunders, although FFF has a 5 minute debuff and most bosses don't last 5 minutes, and if they do you will have time to use 1 GCD to get it back up.

All I am trying to say is that it is more effective to use Pulverize every 8-10 seconds than waiting for swipe, FFF and mangle to come off CD.

---------- Post added 2010-10-17 at 12:56 AM ----------

I seriously think the rotation should look like this:

FFF > Mangle > Laceratex3 > Swipe > Mangle > Pulverize > Laceratex3 > Mangle > Swipe > Pulverize > Laceratex3 > Mangle > Swipe > Pulverize

*When you get a free mangle from the Berserk Proc throw it in first and then move on.
*Keep up Demoralizing Roar, use every 30 seconds between Mangle and Swipe. (Extra time on Lacerate won't hurt at all.)
*Only use FFF at the start and if you are waiting for a Lacerate tick and everything else is on CD.
*Use Enrage as needed.
*Use Berserk as needed.



This makes Mangle and Swipe always on CD.

[Auroro]

I have 17.86 Mastery and I am at 70% with 437 Mastery rating.

Your math is wrong.

I would think both of us is wrong. There is a DR on Mastery. I do not think it is 46 Mastery rating = 1 Mastery

Here is the number.

Everyone get 8 Mastery no matter what.

0 Mastery rating = 0 Mastery (8) (32%)

25 Mastery rating = 0.54 Mastery (8.54)

50 Mastery rating = 1.09 Mastery

74 Mastery rating = 1.61 Mastery

99 Mastery rating = 2.16 Mastery

142 Mastery rating = 3.09 Mastery

178 Mastery rating = 3.88 Mastery

206 Mastery rating = 4.49 Mastery

230 Mastery rating = 5.01 Mastery

263 Mastery rating = 5.73 Mastery

288 Mastery rating = 6.27 Mastery

316 Mastery rating = 6.88 Mastery

358 Mastery rating = 7.80 Mastery

390 Mastery rating = 8.50 Mastery (16.50) (65%)

[Infernix17]

I would think both of us is wrong. There is a DR on Mastery. I do not think it is 46 Mastery rating = 1 Mastery

Here is the number.

Everyone get 8 Mastery no matter what.

0 Mastery rating = 0 Mastery (8) (32%)

25 Mastery rating = 0.54 Mastery (8.54)

50 Mastery rating = 1.09 Mastery

74 Mastery rating = 1.61 Mastery

99 Mastery rating = 2.16 Mastery

142 Mastery rating = 3.09 Mastery

178 Mastery rating = 3.88 Mastery

206 Mastery rating = 4.49 Mastery

230 Mastery rating = 5.01 Mastery

263 Mastery rating = 5.73 Mastery

288 Mastery rating = 6.27 Mastery

316 Mastery rating = 6.88 Mastery

358 Mastery rating = 7.80 Mastery

390 Mastery rating = 8.50 Mastery (16.50) (65%)

Yeah, I know Mastery has a DR and thats why your math was wrong.

I said I have +437 Mastery rating on top of my 8%.

+437 Mastery rating is 9.52 Mastery

9.52% + 8% = 17.52% Mastery.

I'm pretty sure thats what I said.