Page 1 of 44
1
2
3
11
... LastLast
  1. #1

    The Bear Guide - Cataclysm Edition

    4.0.1 - Cataclysm Bear Guide

    Table of Content:

    I ............................... Introduction
    II .............................. The Bear
    III ............................. Stats
    IV .............................. Talents
    V ............................... Glyphs
    VI .............................. Gems
    VII ............................. Enchants
    VIII ............................ Professions
    IX .............................. Rotation
    X ............................... AoE Tanking
    XI .............................. Changed/Added Abilties
    XII ............................. Reforge
    XIII ............................ Mastery
    XIV ............................. Gear Choices
    XV .............................. Cataclysm Gear List
    XVI .............................. Macros
    XVII ............................. Addons


    I: | Introduction |

    This is the 4.0.1 - Cataclysm Bear Guide. This will have every bit of information about Bears and be updated as we move closer into Cataclysm. This guide will be your all-in-one Bear Guide all throughout Cataclysm. As content changes you will see this guide change, so make sure to check back after every major patch!

    I would like to thank everyone who has contributed to the Bear Guide at one point in time. Most notably; Gzilia, Leafre, Retovia, Alski, Qieth and the latest contributor to the WoTLK Bear Guide, arel00. You have all contributed so much to create a perfect guide for everybody out there. Thank you for your dedication and time put into these guides.

    This guide is for BEARS only. If you are looking for a different guide you can try:
    Boomkin: http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...ated-for-4.0.1)
    Cat: http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...-4.0.1-edition
    Restoration: http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...-4.0.1-edition

    II: | The Bear |

    Dire Bear Form is GONE!!
    Since there are no more ranks on abilities, they just have 1 Bear form that changes depending on your level.
    I know Bear form looks nerfed, but they buffed every leather piece with 1.5x-2x more armor so numbers are roughly the same, if not a little more.

    Bear Form:
    Shapeshift into bear form, increasing melee attack power by 30, armor contribution from cloth and leather items by, 65% armor if level 39 or lower and 120% armor if level 40 or higher, and Stamina by 10%. Significantly increases threeat generation, causes Agility to increase attack power, and also protects the caster from Polymorph effects and allows the use of various bear abilities.

    The act of shapeshifting frees the caster of Movement Impairing effects.

    III: | Stats |

    Mastery: Mastery is a new stat in patch 4.0 and Cataclysm. Savage Defender (our Mastery) increases the amount absorbed of our Savage Defense ability.
    • Savage Defense: Each time you deal a critical strike while in Bear Form, you have a 50% chance to gain Savage Defense, reducing the damage taken from the next physical attack that strikes you by 65% of your attack power.
    • Savage Defender increases the amount absorbed by 32%. Each point of mastery increases this by 4%.
    Code:
    179.28 points of mastery rating = 1 point of mastery at level 85.
    More information about our mastery in the section "XII: Mastery:Savage Defender"

    Stam: Stamina is the bears best defensive stat.
    • We are stamina beasts and gain much more out of stamina than any other tank. We gain HP from stamina.
    Code:
    1 Stam = 12.70500 Health (Bear form, Heart of the Wild and Leather Specialization)
    1 Stam = 13.34025 Health (Bear form, Heart of the Wild, Leather Specialization and Mark or Kings)
    *NOT CHANGED FOR CATACLYSM YET*
    Agility: Agility grants AP, crit, and dodge. No longer gives Armor.
    • Increases our threat and damage.
    • Increases the chance to proc our Mastery and increases how much our Mastery absorbs.
    Code:
    1 Agi = 2.1624 AP 
    1 Agi = 0.0129744% Crit 
    1 Agi = 0.0225641% Dodge
    Hit rating: Hit rating improves our chance for our abilities to successfully hit the target.
    • Hit is an important stat for maintaining high threat, although hit is so rare to find on gear and is less useful than other stats.
    Code:
    Melee hit cap is 8%.
    120.109 hit rating = 1% hit.
    960.872 hit rating = 8% hit.
    Expertise: This improves our chance of our abilities not getting dodged or parried.
    • You only need to be at soft cap (26), the more you have the better. Don't gem or reforge past soft cap (26) intentionally.
    Code:
    Soft cap: 26 - 6.5%
    Hard cap: 56 - 14%
    30.0272 expertise rating = 1% expertise.
    195.1768 expertise rating = 6.5% expertise.
    420.3808 expertise rating = 14% expertise.
    Dodge: Dodge is one of the bears defensive stat, since we can't block or parry with our claws, we rely on Dodge and Stamina.
    • Dodge improves from agility and dodge rating.
    Code:
    1 Agi = 0.0243582% Dodge 
    176.71899 Dodge Rating = 1% Dodge
    243.58281085 Agility = 1% Dodge
    *NOT CHANGED FOR CATACLYSM YET*
    Armor: Decreases the amount of -physical- damage we take.
    • Armor cap is 75% until DR for Level 83 Boss.
    • No longer gain Armor from Agility.
    Code:
    1 Armor = 3.282972 Armor (This includes Bear Form, Thick Hide and our Meta.)
    75% = 65205 Armor
    Crit: Crit is a very important stat for Bears, because all of our damage, TPS and Mastery is increased by the more crit we have.
    Crit is useful because it:
    • Increases the damage by 2x when you crit.
    • Increases your chance to proc Savage Defense.
    Code:
    179.28 crit rating = 1% crit.
    Haste: Haste is the least important stat for us. As always, it never hurts to have haste.
    Haste is useful because it:
    • Increases how fast we attack, which increase the amount of extra attacks we will gain from Fury Swipes.
    • Increases how fast we attack, which increase the # of critical strikes we can get, which increases our damage, TPS and Survivability from our Mastery.

    IV: | Talents |

    ~Level 85~
    http://wowtal.com/#k=-wZnHjezh.a67.druid.
    (One extra point to spend where you want)

    ~Leveling Spec~
    http://wowtal.com/#k=-bKGdFog.a6d.druid.

    V: | Glyphs |

    ~Prime:~
    -Glyph of Mangle
    -Glyph of Berserk
    -Glyph of Lacerate

    ~Major:~
    -Glyph of Maul {Preferred}
    -Glyph of Frenzied Regen {Preferred}
    -Glyph of Thorns {Optional}
    -Glyph of Rebirth {Optional}
    -Glyph of Faerie Fire {Optional}
    -Glyph of Feral Charge {Optional}

    ~Minor:~
    -Glyph of Unburdened Rebirth {Preferred}
    -Glyph of Challenging Roar {Preferred}
    -Glyph of Wild {Optional}
    -Glyph of Dash {Optional}

    VI: | Gems |

    These gems will be narrowed down when we have exact answers on what we want to have.

    Since our health pools have been nerfed I think our gemming priority will look like this:

    Threat Issues:
    Expertise (until dodge cap) > Hit (until capped) > Stam & Agility > Mastery > Crit > Haste

    Non-Threat Issues:
    Expertise (until dodge cap) > Stam & Agility > Mastery > Hit (until capped) > Crit > Haste

    Meta Gems:

    Red Gems:


    Blue Gems:


    Yellow Gems:

    Purple Gems:

    Orange Gems:

    Green Gems:

    Cogwheel: Engineering Only

    VII: | Enchants |

    Head:

    Shoulder:

    Cloak:

    Chest:

    Bracer:

    Gloves:
    • [Quickflip Deflection Plates]: Allowing you to increase your armor by 1500 for 12 sec. Gloves can only be activated once every minute. No side effect known yet. (Engineering only)

    Legs:
    Boots:

    Belt:
    • [Grounded Plasma Shield]: Allowing you to activate a powerful shield that absorbs 16200 to 19800 damages. There is a side effect when it does not work, which give you a debuff called “Plasma Misfire!” that gives “Painful Shock” which then delivers an extremely painful static shock to all enemies within 40 yards. The shock does no damage, but will taunt all targets to attack you for 4 sec. (Engineering only)

    Rings:
    Weapon:

    VIII: | Professions |
    (All values are found in bear form with Heart of the Wild and Mark/Kings.)

    Cataclysm: 4.0.3
    Alchemist:
    • An extra hour on Flasks

    Blacksmith:

    Enchanter:

    Engineer:
    • [Grounded Plasma Shield]: Allowing you to activate a powerful shield that absorbs 16200 to 19800 damages. There is a side effect when it does not work, which give you a debuff called “Plasma Misfire!” that gives “Painful Shock” which then delivers an extremely painful static shock to all enemies within 40 yards. The shock does no damage, but will taunt all targets to attack you for 4 sec.
    • [Quickflip Deflection Plates]: Allowing you to increase your armor by 1500 for 12 sec. Gloves can only be activated once every minute. No side effect known yet.

    Jewelcrafter:
    or

    Leatherworker:

    Tailor:

    Scribe:

    Miner:

    Skinner:

    Herbalist:
    • Lifeblood (Rank 8): Heals for 4% of your health instantly and then grants 480 haste ratings for 20 second. It can be critical.

    IX: | Rotation |

    Bears have more of a priority system now

    The Full Rotation would look like:

    FFF > Mangle > Laceratex3 > Pulverize > Mangle > Swipe > Laceratex2 > Mangle > Swipe > Laceratex1> Pulverize > Mangle > Swipe > Laceratex2 > Mangle > Swipe > Laceratex1 > Mangle > Swipe > Pulverize

    Priority System:
    [list]Only use FFF at the start or need to reapply to the same or different target(s).
    [list]Mangle whenever its off CD.
    • When you get a free mangle from the Berserk Proc throw it in first and then move on.
    • Keep up Demoralizing Roar, use every 30 seconds between Mangle and Swipe. (Extra time on Lacerate won't hurt at all.)
    • Pulverize to keep the 9% crit up, only pulverize at 3 stacks of Lacerate. (Use Pulverize every 12-18 seconds.)
    • Lacerate when Mangle and Swipe are on CD, keep it at 3 stacks.
    • Swipe when Mangle is on CD's and when Lacerate is at 3 stacks.
    • Use Berserk as needed or in the beginning of a fight for high threat.
    • Use Enrage as needed.

    X: | AoE Tanking |

    Thorns > Thrash > Swipe > Mangle **>** Thrash > Swipe > Mangle **>** Thrash > Swipe > Mangle

    [b]**Tab Target** You might not have to tab target anymore in Cataclysm, but if you are still struggling with AoE tanking in Cataclysm try tab target while keeping Thrash and Swipe on CD.

    XI: | Changed/Added Abilities |

    Maul - An attack that instantly deals physical damage. Effects which increase Bleed damage also increase Maul damage. 3 second cooldown.
    • Maul is still your overall strongest ability, always keep on CD.
    • Maul has been changed to have a 3 second cooldown rather than "on next attack."
    • Macro everything to maul, because it is still off the GCD. **See section "XV: Macros" for more information.

    Mangle - Mangle the target for 230% normal damage plus 172.5 and causes the target to take 30% additional damage from bleed effects for 1 min.
    • Mangle is your strongest hitting ability and needs to be kept on CD at all times.
    • You will see more overall damage from Maul, because it scales with AP and is being used twice as often than Mangle.

    Lacerate - Lacerates the enemy target, dealing damage and making them bleed for damage over 15 sec, and causing a high amount of threat. Damage increased by attack power. This effect stacks up to 3 times on the same target.
    • Lacerate has been changed to only stack 3 times and the Lacerate Dot is bad now, Lacerate(non dot) does an insane amount of damage and you should be pulverizing every 10-15 seconds, so make sure you always have 3 stacks of Lacerate on the target.
    • The only good thing about the Lacerate DoT is that it gives you a 30% chance to refresh the Cooldown of Mangle.

    Swipe - Swipe nearby enemies, inflicting 2610 damage. Damage increased by attack power.
    • Swipe now has a 6 second Cooldown, but has been compensated by a huge damage increase.
    • This does hurt our AoE tanking a little, but easy to fix. **See "XIV AoE Tanking" for more information.

    Feral Faerie Fire - Decrease the armor of the target by 4% for 5 min. While affected, the target cannot stealth or turn invisible. Stacks up to 3 times. Deals damage and additional threat.
    • Exactly like Sunders, always keep up 3 stacks of FF on the target. (3 stacks = 1 FF when you pick up the talent.)
    • FFF is only useful for opening threat or if the target is far away, if you find time to throw in FFF then throw it in.

    Berserk - Your Lacerate periodic damage has a 30% chance to refresh the cooldown of your Mangle (Bear) ability and make it cost no rage. In addition, when activated this ability causes your Mangle (Bear) ability to hit up to 3 targets and have no cooldown. Lasts 15 sec. Clears the effect of Fear and makes you immune to Fear for the duration.
    • Exactly like warriors "Sword and Board."
    • Good to use for opening threat.

    Frenzied Regeneration - Increases maximum health by 30%, increases health to 30% (if below that value) and converts up to 10 rage per second into health for 20 sec. Each point of rage is converted into 0.3% of max health. 3 minute Cooldown.
    • Added Survival Instincts to the ability.
    • Glyph Negates the self healing bonus.

    Survival Instincts - Reduces all damage taken by 50% for 12 sec. Only useable while in Bear Form or Cat Form.
    • Exactly like warriors "Shield Wall" ability.

    New Ability: Thrash - Deals damage, and causes all targets within 8 yards to bleed for damage over 6 sec.
    • Very strong new AoE ability in Cataclysm! Does not share a CD with Swipe, so AoE will be much easier.

    New Ability: Pulverize - Deals 120% weapon damage plus additional 943.2 damage for each of your Lacerate applications on the target, and increases your melee critical strike chance by 3% for each Lacerate application consumed for 10 sec.
    • Very strong attack and is used every 10-15 seconds.
    • Make sure to have 3 stacks of Lacerate up before using.
    • Must be kept up as the 9% crit is huge for our threat and Mastery.

    New Ability: Skull Bash - You charge and skull bash the target, interrupting spellcasting and preventing any spell in that school from being cast for 5 sec.
    • Extremely useful for picking up casters.

    XII: | Reforge |

    >If you're having threat problems, reforge to Expertise and Hit.
    >If you want to have more absorb(Avoidance) on your Savage Defense, reforge to mastery.

    Reforge Priority:
    (This priority is what stat you want to reduce when you reforge to Mastery or Hit.)

    Haste > Hit (if over cap) > Dodge > Crit > Expertise (if over cap).

    This is if you are under expertise cap (which I guarantee you will be):
    • If the gear has Expertise, but does not have Mastery, reforge haste/dodge/crit for Mastery. (Preferably reforge haste into Mastery)
    • If the gear has Mastery, but does not have Expertise, reforge haste/dodge/crit for Expertise. (Preferably reforge haste into Expertise)
    • If the gear has Mastery and Expertise and you are under hit cap, ONLY reforge haste into hit. (Do not reforge crit into hit)
    • If the gear has Mastery, Expertise and Crit do nothing to the gear.

    This is If you are at/over expertise cap:
    • If the gear does not have Mastery then reforge haste/dodge/crit into Mastery. (Preferably reforge haste into Mastery)
    • If the gear has Mastery, but you are under hit cap, ONLY reforge haste into hit. (You get more threat out of hit than haste)
    • If the gear has Mastery and you are at/over hit cap, do nothing to the piece.
    • If the gear has Mastery and Crit only, do nothing to the piece.

    This is all you should follow. If you are worried about your threat without 8% hit then you can follow the same model, but instead of expertise change it to hit. I wouldn't recommend reforging or gemming for hit, but if you think it is necessary then feel free to do so.

    XIII: | Mastery: Savage Defender |

    Our Mastery is significantly OP. Savage Defense is considered to be a "bubble" as it reduces the damage on the next hit.

    Savage Defense: Each time you deal a critical strike while in Bear Form, you have a 50% chance to gain Savage Defense, reducing the damage taken from the next physical attack that strikes you by 35% of your attack power.
    Vengeance: Each time you take damage while in Bear Form, you gain 5% of the damage taken as attack power, up to a maximum of 10% of your health.

    How to figure out your Savage Defense absorb amount:

    1) Find your Mastery% and how much Savage Defender provides. (17% Mastery = 70% from Savage Defender Savage.)
    2) Find your Savage Defense + Mastery% ( To figure out Savage Defense + Mastery you multiply .35*Your Savage Defender %)(.35 is Savage Defense, Savage Defense is 35% of your AP and 35% turns into .35)
    3) Find your HP fully raid buffed.
    4) Find your Attack Power fully raid buffed
    5) Find your Max Vengeance attack power (To figure out your max Vengeance divide your HP by 10%(Multiply by .10)).
    6) Find your total AP by adding your Max Vengeance AP + Regular AP together
    7) Multiply your total AP by your Savage Defense + Mastery amount. (SD + Mastery= Your Step 2 number.)

    Example:
    17.52% Mastery and 70% from Savage Defender.
    Savage Defense + Mastery= .65*1.7= 1.105 = 110.5%
    94,000 HP fully raid buffed.
    7,200 AP, before Vengeance, fully raid buffed.
    Max Vengeance is 9,400 fully raid buffed.
    Total AP is 16,600 fully raid buffed.
    Multiply 16,600 by 110.5%: 16,600*1.105= 18,343.
    Savage Defense + Mastery total absorb= 18,343

    With a crit chance of 65% (with Pulverize), I have a 32.5% chance to get a free bubble that will absorb ~19,000 damage.

    As you can see, Bears have an amazingly OP Mastery, although with 1 downfall.

    Like always, Savage Defense only takes 1 hit, so whether it is a 400 dot tick or 40k hit, Savage Defense will fade after.
    It is a little RNG based, because it can be wasted with a 400 dot tick or sometimes save your life when it absorbs a 24,000 hit.

    Everyones results will vary, if you are having a hard time figuring out what your Maximum Savage Defense Absorb will be, please post your stats and I will figure it out for you.

    XIV: | Gear Choices |

    The only differences in our gear choices will be finding DPS (Agility/Stam) accessory items. (Neck, Rings, Cloak.)

    XV: | Cataclysm Gear List |

    Pre-Heroic Gear List:

    http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...roic-Gear-List
    • All credit and thanks to Justbearwithit for his awesome Gear List.

    BiS Gear List:

    Coming soon!!

    XVI: | Macro |

    Maul is still off the GCD, it just no longer happens on next attack.
    The reason why most Macros won't work is because you will have ranks posted in the code. Spell ranks have gone away now and you can redo the macros using the abilities directly out of the spellbook.

    Lacerate
    Code:
    #showtooltip
    /cast Lacerate
    /cast !Maul
    Mangle
    Code:
    #showtooltip
    /cast Mangle(Bear Form)
    /cast !Maul
    Pulverize
    Code:
    #Showtooltip
    /cast Pulverize
    /cast !Maul
    Swipe
    Code:
    #Showtooltip
    /cast Swipe(Bear Form)
    /cast !Maul
    XVII: | Addons |

    -Find a DoT timer to track your lacerate and demo roar. DoTimer or SatrinaBuffFrames work extremely well.
    -Theres an addon you can get called "Vengeance Status." It monitors your AP and Savage Defense procs.

    I'm in the process of creating my own addon that is going to track:
    • Lacerate ticks/next lacerate tick (So we can time Pulverize more effectively.)
    • Savage Defense timer/Absorb Maximum/How much it actually absorbed.
    • Vengeance stack + total AP.

    Features:
    • It will have a Lacerate bar that will show how many stacks are currently on the target and the time until the next tick.
    • It will have a Savage Defense timer and show the maximum it can absorb and after it gets used how much was actually used.
    • It will also have a log, which you can link or review.

    **I am more than willing to keep this active and change it as needed when there is proof. I hope this guide helps you find what you are looking for and if it doesn't feel free to ask or PM me.

    Please feel free to add on to my 4.0.1 list.

    I hope this will help some of you.
    Last edited by Infernix17; 2010-12-11 at 06:44 AM.

  2. #2
    Not bad... I personally wouldn't advise reforging and crit on your gear to Mastery, i read that at 85 a feral's crit chance is floating around the 30% mark where as on live at the minute the average is at or around 55-60% in raids. Savage defence relies on your crit chance to proc, reducing your crit is counter-productive. I do agree with you on the haste though, especially because you'll have an abundance of it now Arp has been converted.

    I'd personally go with This spec as the 'go to' spec for bears. I actually can't see any point in spending the points elsewhere... Everything in there is practically mandatory to tank successfully.

  3. #3
    Yeah, your spec is leaning more towards the fact that the current content is all dragons or spell dealing bosses.

    There are going to be many ways to spec depending on content/boss.

    I also keep forgetting the fact that I won't have my Tier 10 4 set so KoTJ is going to be pointless.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Infernix17 View Post
    I also keep forgetting the fact that I won't have my Tier 10 4 set so KoTJ is going to be pointless.
    Actually, for 4.01, I find this surprising.

    E: 2 probably stupid questions:
    1) What has the worth of dodge to do with the ICC-Dodge Aura (in 4.01?)
    2) Why is mastery capped? Or perhaps better: Where did you get this from?
    Last edited by guerron; 2010-10-13 at 08:32 AM.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by guerron View Post
    Actually, for 4.01, I find this surprising.

    E: 2 probably stupid questions:
    1) What has the worth of dodge to do with the ICC-Dodge Aura (in 4.01?)
    2) Why is mastery capped? Or perhaps better: Where did you get this from?
    1) It was worthless to try to gem for avoidance as the ICC debuff negated that, plus with the addition to the 30% buff gemming stam was the best way to go. Quite honestly, it most likely still is just because the 30% buff is there. I would think its about equal.

    2) There is no real mastery cap, although like most stats, Mastery gets diminished. There becomes a point where A > B. In our case A is Stam/Dodge/Hit/Expertise/Crit/Haste and B is Mastery.

    20 Mastery = 84% for Bears. After that it gets ridiculous to reach the cap and like I said before there comes a point where A > B.
    Last edited by Infernix17; 2010-10-13 at 08:54 AM.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Infernix17 View Post
    1) It was worthless to try to gem for avoidance as the ICC debuff negated that, plus with the addition to the 30% buff gemming stam was the best way to go. Quite honestly, it most likely still is just because the 30% buff is there. I would think its about equal.

    2) There is no real mastery cap, although like most stats, Mastery gets diminished. There becomes a point where A > B. In our case A is Stam/Dodge/Hit/Expertise and B is Mastery.

    20 Mastery = 84% for Bears. After that it gets ridiculous to reach the cap and like I said before there comes a point where A > B.
    I always thought that dodge was the only stat (for Bears) that had diminishing returns (And was the reason for Stamina gems, not the -20% dodge, which shouldn't matter).

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by guerron View Post
    I always thought that dodge was the only stat (for Bears) that had diminishing returns (And was the reason for Stamina gems, not the -20% dodge, which shouldn't matter).
    First off, no.
    Crit, Armor and haste all have diminishing returns technically. You most likely won't hit* all of them except if you are purposely trying to.

    *When I say hit, I mean hit the point where Stat A becomes better than Stat B. Using my example above shows that.

    Dodge does have a Diminishing return, although currently in 3 pieces away from BiS gear, I am sitting at 46% dodge. Every % it gets diminished more and more, but not until 60%+ is when it starts losing its value. If I gemmed fully Agility and was fully raid buffed I would be near 60%.

    ---------- Post added 2010-10-13 at 09:11 AM ----------

    I'd also like to point out that in most gear theres only 3 or 4 slots that you would be putting in +10 AGI/+15 Stam.

    So the whole avoidance thing is useless, because no bear is going to gem full Agility. Just trying to get the point that even if we gemmed more for avoidance it wouldn't be a bad thing with the ICC debuff gone.
    Last edited by Infernix17; 2010-10-13 at 09:11 AM.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Infernix17 View Post
    First off, no. Crit, Armor and haste all have diminishing returns technically.
    Dodge has an inbuild 'diminishing return'. With more dodgerating you gain lesser amounts of dodge. This is not the case for any other (bear)stat, afaik. Crit and armor have a hard cap, haste has actually no cap at all. I do'nt know for crit and haste, but am quite sure that the consensus among bears was that armor does'nt lose any of its value, quite contrary: it only gets better.

    As with agility: I think with the new savage defense and Agility now giving 2AP and crit-rating AND no more armor through agi, its defensive worth will be re-evalued.
    Last edited by guerron; 2010-10-13 at 09:19 AM.

  9. #9
    The whole point of Diminishing returns is that the more you put in a stat the less you are getting out of it. Thats true about everything I said(That includes haste and crit.)

    What you just said is entirely true about dodge having a diminishing return and the more dodge rating you gain the less amounts you get, but that goes for every secondary stat.

    Technically crit stops at 100%, but its impossible to reach, so calling that a hard cap is pointless. Armor does have a hardcap at 75%. Although it still has a diminishing return regardless. When you are at 70% Armor it takes SO much to get to 75%.

    If it were because of diminishing returns then why did we gem for avoidance in Ulduar and ToGC?

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Infernix17 View Post
    Technically crit stops at 100%, but its impossible to reach, so calling that a hard cap is pointless. Armor does have a hardcap at 75%. Although it still has a diminishing return regardless. When you are at 70% Armor it takes SO much to get to 75%.
    To quote from wowwiki.com:
    However, in terms of absolute time to live with respect to melee attacks, armor has no diminishing return effect. Given a constant melee DPS amount, each additional point of armor (whether it be from 0 to 1 or from 30000 to 30001) will increase the tank's time to live by the same effective amount.

  11. #11
    You forgot the rest of it:

    Where DR% is calculated according to the above formula. In this way, armor can be thought of as increasing the effective health of the tank with respect to melee attacks. Since DR caps at 75%, effective time to live caps at 400% of the tanks base time to live (time to live if the tank had no armor).
    Prior to hitting the cap, armor is certainly a very desirable stat for tanks, but difficult to find. Most items of similar quality and rarity have similar armor values, and extra armor can be found only very rarely.

    ---------- Post added 2010-10-13 at 09:44 AM ----------

    Relative DPS reduction by the last 5k armor
    Armor:0 5k 10k 15k 20k 25k 30k 35k 40k 45k 50k
    Armor:0 23% 19% 16% 14% 12% 11% 10% 9% 8% 7.5%

    That is called diminished.

    What you just said is based on the time to live. That is a constant, but how much it takes to get to the next % is higher.

    It also says "Prior to hitting the cap, armor is very desirable." What tank do you know is even close to hitting the cap?
    Last edited by Infernix17; 2010-10-13 at 09:48 AM.

  12. #12
    Should we be macroing Maul to Mangle, Lacerate, and Pulverise?

    I know it's not on next melee anymore, but I tested it, and it does in fact still work that way, so I'm just curious. :P

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Myzou View Post
    Should we be macroing Maul to Mangle, Lacerate, and Pulverise?

    I know it's not on next melee anymore, but I tested it, and it does in fact still work that way, so I'm just curious. :P
    Maul is still off the GCD, it just no longer happens on next attack.
    The reason most won't work is because you will have ranks posted in the code. Those have gone bye-bye now and you can redo the macros using the abilities directly out of the spellbook.

    use:
    #showtooltip
    /cast Lacerate
    /cast !Maul

    #showtooltip
    /cast Mangle(Bear Form)
    /cast !Maul

    #Showtooltip
    /cast Pulverize
    /cast !Maul

    #Showtooltip
    /cast Swipe(Bear Form)
    /cast !Maul
    Last edited by Infernix17; 2010-10-13 at 10:05 AM.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Infernix17 View Post
    You forgot the rest of it:
    Actually not :-) I simply found it 'uninformative'. I show you why.

    Quote Originally Posted by Infernix17 View Post
    What you just said is based on the time to live. That is a constant, but how much it takes to get to the next % is higher.
    This is actually (if we believe wowwiki) not the whole truth. It is true that it is more difficult (i.e. you need more armorpoints) to get to the next %. But as a tank my task is staying alive. So I think the 'true' metric to measure the usefulness of armor should be ttl. And here it says:
    [..]each additional point of armor (whether it be from 0 to 1 or from 30000 to 30001) will increase the tank's time to live by the same effective amount.
    so for each point of armour (not %) I get the same (and not a diminished) return in my time to live. The 'return' for a tank is (imho) ttl, not dr%.

  15. #15
    As I stated, thats beyond the point. Diminishing returns work the same for every stat and doesn't change just for armor.

    If you don't want to take the advice that it is better then keep gemming stam then don't. Like I said, IMO I think gemming for a little extra avoidance is going to be better off.

    ---------- Post added 2010-10-13 at 10:12 AM ----------

    And to add, you are just contradicting yourself. You are saying "Why should I gem for avoidance" (Armor/dodge), and it clearly states that Avoidance is extremely good and you are arguing that Armor > Stam, but in the beginning you were arguing why to gem for avoidance.

    So theres your answer.
    Last edited by Infernix17; 2010-10-13 at 10:13 AM.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Infernix17 View Post
    As I stated, thats beyond the point. Diminishing returns work the same for every stat and doesn't change just for armor.
    That is what puzzled me from the beginning. Only avoidance stats have diminishing returns. Crit, Haste, ArP,Hit, Expertise have not. Armor is a special case and as shown on wowwiki in terms of ttl, armor has no diminishing returns.

    Quote Originally Posted by Infernix17 View Post
    If you don't want to take the advice that it is better then keep gemming stam then don't. Like I said, IMO I think gemming for a little extra avoidance is going to be better off.

    I never said anything in that department.

    ---------- Post added 2010-10-13 at 10:12 AM ----------

    And to add, you are just contradicting yourself. You are saying "Why should I gem for avoidance" (Armor/dodge), and it clearly states that Avoidance is extremely good and you are arguing that Armor > Stam, but in the beginning you were arguing why to gem for avoidance.
    I do not know where you have read this, but my interest was only in diminishing returns. Imho discussions over stam vs. agi are mostly pointless. I was surprised about your statement:

    Dodge is actually going to be useful now as the ICC debuff is gone, so don't mastery your dodge unless you are close to Mastery cap (20).
    Since the ICC-Debuff didn't 'reset' diminishing returns it really does nothing to make your dodge more or less usefull. And there is'nt (shouldn't be) any diminishing return on mastery nor a cap. At least I have never heard of it and you have'nt provided any source for it.

    Actually I thought I missed something about combat-ratings in general and hoped you could give me a hand where to find these informations you are using.
    Last edited by guerron; 2010-10-13 at 10:46 AM.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Infernix17 View Post
    Maul is still off the GCD, it just no longer happens on next attack.
    The reason most won't work is because you will have ranks posted in the code. Those have gone bye-bye now and you can redo the macros using the abilities directly out of the spellbook.

    use:
    #showtooltip
    /cast Lacerate
    /cast !Maul

    #showtooltip
    /cast Mangle(Bear Form)
    /cast !Maul

    #Showtooltip
    /cast Pulverize
    /cast !Maul

    #Showtooltip
    /cast Swipe(Bear Form)
    /cast !Maul
    But... I said they worked? >_>

    I was asking if we should still macro them. :P

  18. #18
    I find it hard to believe that noone reacted to this:
    Glyphs:
    ~Major~
    -Glyph of Frenzied Regen
    While Frenzied Regeneration is active, healing effects on you are 30% more powerful but causes your Frenzied Regeneration to no longer convert rage into health.
    Doesnt this mean we are not healing ourselves anymore with the glyph?

  19. #19

    /sad

    Im usually pretty open-minded to changes and whatnot but after having been a bear for the past year and then playing last night in heroics, I really really am not having much fun as a bear right now. I am hoping things get normalized and/or fixed for lack of a better word soon. I also can not wait for level 81 to have thrash. Really though I cant wait for Cata so that we have new dungeons. Convincing randoms in wotlk dungeons to wait on dps or to CC because im not instant AoE aggro sucks =[

  20. #20
    Stood in the Fire Trekk's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Riften
    Posts
    436
    Quote Originally Posted by dombow View Post
    Im usually pretty open-minded to changes and whatnot but after having been a bear for the past year and then playing last night in heroics, I really really am not having much fun as a bear right now. I am hoping things get normalized and/or fixed for lack of a better word soon. I also can not wait for level 81 to have thrash. Really though I cant wait for Cata so that we have new dungeons. Convincing randoms in wotlk dungeons to wait on dps or to CC because im not instant AoE aggro sucks =[
    I have to agree. Bear aoe tanking right now sucks. I actually had to mark targets last night, because I can't just spam swipe to keep everything on me. While I dont think we need to have spammable swipe, We definitly need something to help fill better until cata comes. Perhaps make the mangle proc from berserk hit another target for 100% damage?

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •