Ret and its gapclosers

[Luthius]

People with no Experience in the Paladin class as players could be really creative with how they put their words together to make it look pretty or good at least. Try having a premade Paladin on beta and duel mages/hunters/warlocks and share your thoughts.

But for your initial post, it only exists in fairytales & novels, not in WoW.

[Nymphys]

Liminal, while there are issues that need addressed, you are way over the top. It doesnt help when trying to have a reasonable discussion about the problems with our spec.

Since you've pointed out to two people now the virtues of having a balanced, fair discussion, without actually responding to or raising any points besides, "I disagree", please feel free to let us know which particular aspect of Liminal's post is "way over the top". While you're at it, let me know where I was "angry" in my post.

Unless of course, you actually have nothing to contribute, can't find any "reasonable" way to discuss any of the points, and are merely playing white knight to a rogue telling a spec they haven't played how good we have it?

---------- Post added 2010-10-14 at 05:34 AM ----------

LOS abuse aside, how'd that frost armor work out with LotL? you have to cleanse after every judge?

It's a little bit odd to be debating long-distance gap-closing issues with someone who's only tried in an arena where you only have to follow someone for 20 yards and they're up against a wall unable to go anywhere.. ><

---------- Post added 2010-10-14 at 05:36 AM ----------

People with no Experience in the Paladin class as players could be really creative with how they put their words together to make it look pretty or good at least. Try having a premade Paladin on beta and duel mages/hunters/warlocks and share your thoughts.

But for your initial post, it only exists in fairytales & novels, not in WoW.

See.. I wish I was good at being this concise instead of posting half a page of counter arguments. ><

[Degenerator]

Ok then.

"It's a little bit odd to be debating long-distance gap-closing issues with someone who's only tried in an arena where you only have to follow someone for 20 yards and they're up against a wall unable to go anywhere.. " - So you are talkin about a duel or maybe world pvp? Either way, this whole "gap closing" issue is based purely on the fact that you as a Ret are alone. So one can only assume you mean a duel. Oh wait..


"Try having a premade Paladin on beta and duel mages/hunters/warlocks and share your thoughts." - PvP is based around 1v1? Try having a Ret on beta a duel a rogue or warrior or feral kitty, then come back to me. You pick classes that we all know are OP at the moment to sustain your arguement. Which by the way I never said was wrong, just exaggerated.

[Minky]

I'm not angry. It's quite easy to be civil if you're simply ignoring every counter to your arguments and making up new points for people to counter each post, as Minky is doing. He/She/It may not be trolling intentionally, but it's a classic troll behaviour -

1) Make obviously incorrect points.
2) When someone replies with counters to these points, ignore and..
3) Make more obviously incorrect points. Repeat 2 until satisfied.
4) ???
5) Profit!

Stating replying further to him/her/it is a waste of time is fact, not anger.

I've not ignored every point. I provided my counters to those points without directly quoting each in turn. Use any amount of inference with what I've said as you need to. Hell, you've been doing it with all of my previous posts to prove your jaded point, why don't you put that clearly imaginative mind to use in a different facet?

If you honestly believe your point's been made, I believe my alternative point has been, too: Jaded rets are jaded. You play the class, but it seems you have a horrendous idea of balance in the game. Ret has its problems. Staying on-target is not one of them.
I'm sure that when Ret damage is taken a look at, mechanic-wise, the time you're on-target will be far more meaningful than similarly-themed classes(Melee). That was the case for Wrath, wasn't it? Especially so with your interrupt and lack of major self-healing, now.

By the by...Why the QQ about Repentence? 1minute Cooldown, 10second Disorient, cleansable. Blind:3:00 Cooldown, 10 second duration, uncleanseable.

And if HoF isn't a gap closer, Blind sure as HELL isn't. (Hah!)

[Ronark]

Repentance only lasts 6 seconds in PvP. Please try to keep your information straight.

[zael]

I'm going to say this again, as I don't think I've mentioned it here on MMO Champion, thinking it would be obvious.

Yes, Paladins can run fast. Yes, we get a judgement buff to let us run faster.

Keep in mind, however, that our opponents are also likely running away from us.

It isn't just a matter of getting from Point A to Point B at 115% movement speed. It's getting from point A to point B at 115% movement speed while Point B is moving away from you at 108% movement speed (at least), and also likely has the ability to either move away significantly faster than that or somehow incapacitate you so you can no longer run towards them or at least run towards them as quickly.

[Nymphys]

And if HoF isn't a gap closer, Blind sure as HELL isn't. (Hah!)

HOF removes slowing effects off us.. that's not a "gap closer" by any definition. At best, thats a restoration of normality.

As for blind, I use it all the time to catch people on my rogue (especially flag carriers in WSG). 15 yard range means I can use it when I'm well outside melee range. At this range a Paladin can use.. Oh - nothing. Except Long Arm of the Law which doesn't slow them at this range. So.. yeah - nothing.

Of course, with a rogue, there's so many options - i could sprint to them, or shadowstep to them, or if I'm stealthed, throw down a decoy and turn them around to face me. Blind is just one. And it is a gap closer. HOF does nothing of the sort.

As for Repentence, its the only thing "resembling" a gap closer we have. Except, its got that 1 minute cooldown. Every other class I listed has gap closers are on 30 seconds or less. Some (such as Icy Chains) are spammable.

[Minky]

Repentance only lasts 6 seconds in PvP. Please try to keep your information straight.

Woops Paladins in general have never really been known for their control, either way (Except for prot, I guess? :P)
It's sort of burning when you see HoF discounted as a gap closer because it doesen't auto-zip you to the target or can be dispelled.

I don't think Rets are seeing the possible good of their mechanics, or appreciating the ease they will have of removing Cooldown-roots and snares. Frost Mages are the bane of Rets as much as they are the bane of Assassination and even Sublety Rogues, in group situations. There really isn't anything that Paladins in particular are super-lacking in.

I think some of Prot's snares should be either be given a cooldown further than current, be evened out, or be removed. Subsequently, I think Ret should have a talent neither other spec can reach that either makes their HoF unable to be removed; or make their Cleanse take 10% mana unchanged by other effects, when used to dispel themselves of roots/snares.

It gives Rets a better chance at removing layered CCs in the manner of Rogues, while still giving them a Cooldown of sorts; that being their total Mana. I feel that's a fair "Trade-off" for having a nearly spammable counter to snares and roots.

And because I seem to have to repeat it for it to be read (GoGo skimming?), I DON'T think Rets are without their problems. Their Gap-closing has had some work done, and I find it sufficient once they have their damage pass.

Edit:@ Above post:
Different classes are Different. If Ret had Chains of Ice, they would be OP. Keep in mind DKs don't have ANY way to remove Roots or Snares from themselves. Death Grip functions differently; in that LoS counters it, and LoS is plentiful enough in the places that matter in BGs (Flag rooms, buildings).

Keep in mind as well, you have partners or teammates, depending on setting. The game isn't a 1v1 dueling tournament.

[Requital]

Woops Paladins in general have never really been known for their control, either way (Except for prot, I guess? :P)
It's sort of burning when you see HoF discounted as a gap closer because it doesen't auto-zip you to the target or can be dispelled.

I don't think Rets are seeing the possible good of their mechanics, or appreciating the ease they will have of removing Cooldown-roots and snares. Frost Mages are the bane of Rets as much as they are the bane of Assassination and even Sublety Rogues, in group situations. There really isn't anything that Paladins in particular are super-lacking in.

I think some of Prot's snares should be either be given a cooldown further than current, be evened out, or be removed. Subsequently, I think Ret should have a talent neither other spec can reach that either makes their HoF unable to be removed; or make their Cleanse take 10% mana unchanged by other effects, when used to dispel themselves of roots/snares.

It gives Rets a better chance at removing layered CCs in the manner of Rogues, while still giving them a Cooldown of sorts; that being their total Mana. I feel that's a fair "Trade-off" for having a nearly spammable counter to snares and roots.

And because I seem to have to repeat it for it to be read (GoGo skimming?), I DON'T think Rets are without their problems. Their Gap-closing has had some work done, and I find it sufficient once they have their damage pass.

Edit:@ Above post:
Different classes are Different. If Ret had Chains of Ice, they would be OP. Keep in mind DKs don't have ANY way to remove Roots or Snares from themselves. Death Grip functions differently; in that LoS counters it, and LoS is plentiful enough in the places that matter in BGs (Flag rooms, buildings).

Keep in mind as well, you have partners or teammates, depending on setting. The game isn't a 1v1 dueling tournament.

Please explain these mechanics that we don't appreciate?

HoF is not a gap closer please quit calling it one it's not even close to a gap closer. Calling HoF a gap closer would be like calling grounding totem a gap closer.

This is the one that really gets me, I had no intention of replying to your post until you posted this garbage about there is nothing a Paladin is super lacking in. You have got to be kidding me this is probably the most inaccurate post I have seen in ages. It's so wrong there is no way to make it right.

All I can do is /palm to forehead over your post lol

[Minky]

Please explain these mechanics that we don't appreciate?

Self-cleanse of Roots and Snares with no CD besides Mana management
Group utility
Forcing the target to move 100% Speed(Counter of Rogue and other Ret 15% movespeed, and big counter to Cat druid movement)
HoF
Burst in terms comparable to Rogues, mechanic-wise (Holy Combo-points)
25% Mana recovery over 12 seconds(Refreshes Cleanse-roots/snare "CD").

Once the damage pass comes by, you may understand that Rets aren't horrendous. The RNG aspect of Ret damage dealing is being looked into, with the dev-time Paladins have ("We are closely monitoring the effects and general mechanics of Holy Power, as a resource").

Of course, if you're a cynic, everything will seem like a dreary day and gray rainbows.

---------- Post added 2010-10-14 at 06:14 AM ----------

Please explain these mechanics that we don't appreciate?

HoF is not a gap closer please quit calling it one it's not even close to a gap closer. Calling HoF a gap closer would be like calling grounding totem a gap closer.

This is the one that really gets me, I had no intention of replying to your post until you posted this garbage about there is nothing a Paladin is super lacking in. You have got to be kidding me this is probably the most inaccurate post I have seen in ages. It's so wrong there is no way to make it right.

All I can do is /palm to forehead over your post lol

I have -never- stated that there is nothing Paladin's are lacking in.
HoF is a gap closer. Stop seeing the game as a binary case of Yes or No. You'll become a better player once you do, no matter how pro or casual you label yourself as.
It is a Gap Closer because, if you are playing as you should in PvP, that pillar is a humping-tool. You pop HoF and you're not kited. You and your partners/team position in favor of your comp, and you go for a kill / objective. If you can't handle positioning, you can't handle HoF being the gap-closer it is,and I'm sorry for that.
anotherEdit:It really depends on what you think your class should have, when you talk about what it's lacking in. A Combat rogue is super-lacking in magic damage. Should it have a lot of it? Probably not. Does it have some? Poisons are considered magic in the hit table.

If you think Ret should be able to be on-target 100% of the time, I'd say that's fair. Just keep the damage as-is, if that's the case.
If you want Ret to do competitive damage (It should), it should be able to be countered by snares and roots just like every other melee is, at some point.
And Finally, abilities have CDs for a reason. Cloak's CD is 1min. It cures magic poison curse and diseases, snare or not, and makes you resist magic for 6 seconds. HoF grants you immunity to being snared for the duration, but is dispellable. 20sec CD. Cleanse costs 15% mana to cure a root/snare. You cure 25% mana over 12 seconds. Soft-cooldown.

In truth, what I'm reading is you want your Ret to be good at everything and bad at nothing. I agree it sucks at damage now, as do quite a few other DD specs, which it isn't alone on. But I disagree that it's helpless against a Ranged class.

[Requital]

Self-cleanse of Roots and Snares with no CD besides Mana management
Group utility
Forcing the target to move 100% Speed(Counter of Rogue and other Ret 15% movespeed, and big counter to Cat druid movement)
HoF
Burst in terms comparable to Rogues, mechanic-wise (Holy Combo-points)
25% Mana recovery over 12 seconds(Refreshes Cleanse-roots/snare "CD").

Once the damage pass comes by, you may understand that Rets aren't horrendous. The RNG aspect of Ret damage dealing is being looked into, with the dev-time Paladins have ("We are closely monitoring the effects and general mechanics of Holy Power, as a resource").

Of course, if you're a cynic, everything will seem like a dreary day and gray rainbows.

There is very little in your post that is accurate hell it's so flawed I don't know where to start.

We have to sacrifice the ability to kill the target to keep on the target, Who else has that problem? Right no one.

Burst comparable to Rogues? rofl you have seriously been smoking something, Please share our burst is nowhere near that of a Rogue.

Of course, if you're a cynic, everything will seem like a dreary day and gray rainbows.

As well if you are clueless to the class and what it suffers you will think it has it easy.

[Agathon]

Look...I never said paladins are fine. If you were really reading what I said, you will see, by my own admission, that Paladins HAVE issues. I'm just sort of surprised by the amount of QQ about closing gaps, when it's clear that's not an issue - or wouldn't be if their burst didn't suck.
Don't get off topic, and don't be a jerk. Really, it's old as hell.
And again, I don't have to play a class or spec to know how it works. This game isn't that complicated that you need to have a masters degree in Retology to understand.

idiotic rogue hero with no clue that thought he would be clever by coming here and opening a topic telling us "YOURE FINE GUYS!!!!!".

lacks the experience of playing other classes
not worth to argue
sick of those people

is this some kind of "oh they are all wrong, they play the specc and i do not but these faceroll scum people dont know it any better. i better tell them!". i simply dont get the motivation why you would do something like that...other than "hahaha they got nerfed pretty hard and unjustified. i better rub it in!"

[Minky]

idiotic rogue hero with no clue that thought he would be clever by coming here and opening a topic telling us "YOURE FINE GUYS!!!!!".

lacks the experience of playing other classes
not worth to argue
sick of those people

In turn, I'm sick of people like you that offer nothing to discuss and offer nothing but assumptions.
I play Rogue, DK, Hunter, Mage and Priest. Rogue, DK and Mage are my "Mains". Rogue is my "Main-Main". I play all 3 specs of those 3 Main classes to some degree of specialty. I'm good at playing Sublety, and have been since early BC. In that case, I do "Have a clue", experience-wise.

Ret is NOT fine; but its Gap-closing is working as intended, with the Cleanse change. The Gap closer/Gap Maker arms race is a harsh one; but in the case of Ret I think they came out Ok. Now they just need a pass to their damage and perhaps for Repent to be 10seconds, 1min CD; or undispellable.


Offer something progressive or don't boost your post-count. It's positively useless.
["I'm not even mad =)"]

[Agathon]

then why dont go to the rogue forum and open a thread there. maybe these people want to read your fantasy storys.

does mmo have something like an ignore function? nvm found it.

[Requital]

Self-cleanse of Roots and Snares with no CD besides Mana management
Group utility
Forcing the target to move 100% Speed(Counter of Rogue and other Ret 15% movespeed, and big counter to Cat druid movement)
HoF
Burst in terms comparable to Rogues, mechanic-wise (Holy Combo-points)
25% Mana recovery over 12 seconds(Refreshes Cleanse-roots/snare "CD").

Once the damage pass comes by, you may understand that Rets aren't horrendous. The RNG aspect of Ret damage dealing is being looked into, with the dev-time Paladins have ("We are closely monitoring the effects and general mechanics of Holy Power, as a resource").

Of course, if you're a cynic, everything will seem like a dreary day and gray rainbows.

---------- Post added 2010-10-14 at 06:14 AM ----------


I have -never- stated that there is nothing Paladin's are lacking in.
HoF is a gap closer. Stop seeing the game as a binary case of Yes or No. You'll become a better player once you do, no matter how pro or casual you label yourself as.
It is a Gap Closer because, if you are playing as you should in PvP, that pillar is a humping-tool. You pop HoF and you're not kited. You and your partners/team position in favor of your comp, and you go for a kill / objective. If you can't handle positioning, you can't handle HoF being the gap-closer it is,and I'm sorry for that.
anotherEdit:It really depends on what you think your class should have, when you talk about what it's lacking in. A Combat rogue is super-lacking in magic damage. Should it have a lot of it? Probably not. Does it have some? Poisons are considered magic in the hit table.

If you think Ret should be able to be on-target 100% of the time, I'd say that's fair. Just keep the damage as-is, if that's the case.
If you want Ret to do competitive damage (It should), it should be able to be countered by snares and roots just like every other melee is, at some point.
And Finally, abilities have CDs for a reason. Cloak's CD is 1min. It cures magic poison curse and diseases, snare or not, and makes you resist magic for 6 seconds. HoF grants you immunity to being snared for the duration, but is dispellable. 20sec CD. Cleanse costs 15% mana to cure a root/snare. You cure 25% mana over 12 seconds. Soft-cooldown.

In truth, what I'm reading is you want your Ret to be good at everything and bad at nothing. I agree it sucks at damage now, as do quite a few other DD specs, which it isn't alone on. But I disagree that it's helpless against a Ranged class.

What i'm reading is you have ZERO experience as Ret so you are merely talking out your ass about things, HoF is not a gap closer it does not make me magically catch someone that is out of range it does not close the gap hence it is not a gap closer once you realize that you will be a better player as well.

I tell you what I'll trade cleanse and HoF for Rogue/DK/Warrior tools any of the 3 classes, I would gladly hand over the bullshit abilities we have that you seem to think are godly.

Take my cleanse and take my hof, Give me the toolkit of any of those 3 classes and we'll call it even.

Also don't even get me started on healing because all 3 of those classes are able to out heal Ret.

[Minky]

then why dont go to the rogue forum and open a thread there. maybe these people want to read your fantasy storys.

Because I don't want to discuss Ret paladin gap-closing in the Rogue forum.
Maybe you would. I'm sorry I have reading comprehension, though.

Post your experience, play-by-play, with a Frost mage, a Hunter(any spec), and whatever else you have difficulty with, or had difficulty with pre-4.0.1 when your damage was actually damage.