Spoiler: Ret is not THAT broken.

[Wysmark]

Well

I kinda like Word of Glory and how it dont discourage you from offhealing. Also the way that wings are now more interesting as it allows us to use HoW during it is kinda nifty and well thought out. Also thank you for fixing buffing Blizz, oh the silence in the raid chat...mmm

Most qq is cuz our solo ability has gone down with the loss of sacred shield, chnages to divine storm and and loss of JoL. Im uncertain if i can solo MC as i used to (will check later), but then the "One-man army" wasnt rly fair.

The only real problem with ret is that we have too much RNG. Exorcism procs we cant control, we randomly gain Holy power, randomly abilities dont cost holy power. This still mean we dont have a rotation per se. We use something, check holy power, than base our next move on the number of charges. Some RNG is okay, too much and its not a rotation.

We've gone from "Priority button smashing" -> "Priority buttons based on RNG". I dunno if this is an okay design or not...maybe after a few weeks we ca say more...

[Consata]

You guys do relise we were doing like 7k on wednsday and 15k today right?

[Deleted]

Now that we were hotfixed, we are almost fine, just need a bit of training with the random rotation, but there's going to have a huge mess when we'll also have to keep up Inquisition, there begins to have too many things to track (DP, HoL, Exo, AW and Zeal CD, Inqui). It's going to be a pain in the ass to track everything (without that stupid CLCRet.

But i have to agree, except for the very random rotation, we are fine, managed to reach haste softcap and maintain 10,5K DPS selfbuffed on heroic dummy and broke 20k DPS without ToTT on Festergut. DPS-wise, we are fine.

Now PvP wise, didn't PvP that much, so i can't tell our actual state (especially without snare dispell)

[NathSB]

Alert! Alert! Elitist Jerks 1000 club poster; 12 meters and closing in!
I would have read your post, but it as it seems you only read my TL;DR part, what makes you think I'm going to read your wall-o-text?!

I really hate it when people post theorycrafting, class balance, and game balance issues mostly to inflate their egos rather than to inform people.

On the other hand, I was a healer in TBC, so I would not be able to remember the great threat revolt. Let alone would I care since I never pulled aggro off my tanks.

[edit]: Inb4 "implying, or assuming". I KNOW I AM.

You do know that your signature makes you seem like a douche that nobody will take seriously, right? If you want a serious discussion in your thread, you should consider changing it.

On-topic, though: To me, it seems that Ret performance is heavily based on the player. The first day I saw retribution paladins easily pull 8k DPS single-target in gear that wasn't too awesome, yet yesterday, one struggled to achieve 4k in better gear.

The same goes for hunters, apparently.

[Consata]

Now PvP wise, didn't PvP that much, so i can't tell our actual state (especially without snare dispell)

Did a random yday, got 29 killing blows and 0 deaths, 4th place in AB because 3 moonkin druids were in the group. Balanced.
Got an AV aswell yday, we won on resourses and we had 8 moonkins on top. Its really balanced.

[DaGhostDS]

Now that we were hotfixed, we are almost fine, just need a bit of training with the random rotation, but there's going to have a huge mess when we'll also have to keep up Inquisition, there begins to have too many things to track (DP, HoL, Exo, AW and Zeal CD, Inqui). It's going to be a pain in the ass to track everything (without that stupid CLCRet.

But i have to agree, except for the very random rotation, we are fine, managed to reach haste softcap and maintain 10,5K DPS selfbuffed on heroic dummy and broke 20k DPS without ToTT on Festergut. DPS-wise, we are fine.

Now PvP wise, didn't PvP that much, so i can't tell our actual state (especially without snare dispell)

Thats exactly the situation i didn't want to be in with addon like ClCret, waiting for a crutch to be updated and fit with our new rotation.

Classtimer and bar frame with everything in front of your eyes will fix everything and will always have an alternative.

[Maneken]

My friend have paladin in beta, when i tried his paladin on lvl 82 as ret he had huge problem with killing mobs, you couldnt killed 3 mobs without taking brake heal and regen mana, on lvl 85 if i wanted to grind lvl 84 mobs and accidently atack more then 2-3 mobs in most case i finished dead on ground.
Problem is on lvl 85 NOT on lvl 80, hp of mobs is drasticly higher in Cataclysm then in Wotlk, your dmg is cca 30-40% higher on lvl 85 and players hp is around 400% higher(in dungeoun gear) then on lvl 80.
Is paladin broken, yes alitlebit on lvl 85 in pve and alot in pvp.

[Deleted]

Thats exactly the situation i didn't want to be in with addon like ClCret, waiting for a crutch to be updated and fit with our new rotation.

Classtimer and bar frame with everything in front of your eyes will fix everything and will always have an alternative.

That's why there are generic addons like PowerAura to do your own effects, that will almost always be updated pretty fast.
CLCRet is no good in any way...

[Deleted]

Ghost Crawler Posts




Hotfix is HotFix.

This
On patchday I had like 5k dps on the heroic dummy lol ..
Went VoA yesterday and I even had more dps than a similar equipped rogue, like 13-14k
And the burst damage is insane

[DaGhostDS]

That's why there are generic addons like PowerAura to do your own effects, that will almost always be updated pretty fast.
CLCRet is no good in any way...

exactly

[zcks]

The main problem the spec has is the lack of control/overabundance of RNG which leads to luck being just as much if not more of a determining factor then skill especially in pvp where you cannot guarantee much if any melee time on target.
This will lead to the spec being either overpowered or complete crap in pvp & somewhat less so in pve depending on how lucky you get with random procs.

There is also the problem of having less self healing then even pure dps specs & classes that do not have to sacrifice dps for self healing which will lead to the question of why bring the ret paladin when the pure dps or healer can fulfill his job much easier & more efficiently.

In the end it can easily be fixed a number of ways ranging from making holy power generation more consistent to changing our mastery etc... etc...

[-Rain]

Even bigger spoiler: bads will always think stuff that isn't broken is broken

[Requital]

Thats exactly the situation i didn't want to be in with addon like ClCret, waiting for a crutch to be updated and fit with our new rotation.

Classtimer and bar frame with everything in front of your eyes will fix everything and will always have an alternative.

---------- Post added 2010-10-15 at 01:34 PM ----------

That's why there are generic addons like PowerAura to do your own effects, that will almost always be updated pretty fast.
CLCRet is no good in any way...

You two are the type of people that will continue being lower as you refuse to use the most efficient DPS addons, It's comedy and cracks me up but I'll enjoying seeing you lower overall for your ignorance of what efficiency means. However if you play to just randomly press buttons and not be as good as you can as long as your having fun then congratulations you'll hit that mark.

[JayJay09]

Explain to me how getting 3 HP and casting TV isn't facerolling?

More so.. What class ain't facerolling? There's really nothing difficult about any class. I mean, really challenging. The biggest joke are arcane mages. All those "rotations" have been made pretty simple. Ele Shaman is easy as shit now, just as easy ret was prepatch. Ret has become a bit more challenging now than prepatch since you would fail badly hittig everything that says "ready". Nobody can deny that withut being a dick.

[Deleted]

---------- Post added 2010-10-15 at 01:34 PM ----------



You two are the type of people that will continue being lower as you refuse to use the most efficient DPS addons, It's comedy and cracks me up but I'll enjoying seeing you lower overall for your ignorance of what efficiency means. However if you play to just randomly press buttons and not be as good as you can as long as your having fun then congratulations you'll hit that mark.

We don't randomly press buttons, we use our brain to do what your addon do for you, thinking. We loose what... 50DPS by pressing the wrong button one time in a hundred, so what ? "sorry for using my brain and losing 50DPS to enjoy a lot more my char" ?

If you think that having all the required CD in the same spot is less efficient than having all your CD in the same spot... Well, i've got bad news for you.

[Requital]

We don't randomly press buttons, we use our brain to do what your addon do for you, thinking. We loose what... 50DPS by pressing the wrong button one time in a hundred, so what ? "sorry for using my brain and losing 50DPS to enjoy a lot more my char" ?

If you think that having all the required CD in the same spot is less efficient than having all your CD in the same spot... Well, i've got bad news for you.

Hey I said if your having fun congratulations, I hate to break it to you but all of wotlk it's been a shit load load more then 50 DPS to be more efficient and always has and always will be.

If you think that having all the required CD in the same spot is less efficient than having all your CD in the same spot... Well, i've got bad news for you.

That doesn't make any sense.

[Cardolan]

The downside being, of course, that actually checking to see if you have 3 HP first doesn't take a lot of skill.

EJL

I agree, but that doesn't mean there aren't thousands (if not millions) of World of Warcraft players that fail on things that don't take a lot of skill. There will still be players who mash buttons at random, and this system should punish them more than the previous one did.

[ragingsoul]

Even bigger spoiler: bads will always think stuff that isn't broken is broken

make a ICC25 hc run and tell this again. I hate to break it to you, but it's actually the other way around.
The majority of good rets in top guilds don't think the design is working, whereas people with 245 251 ilvl gear that don't push the paladin class to it's limits are seeing an improvement. Our aoe is almost nonexistent since DS is really low dmg still, and the ramp time on it is SOO bad depending on luck. yesterday, by the time I could do 1 DS on sindy trash, everything was dead already. why? because, let's see.. humm, ah yeah. almost all AOE don't have a ramp time. seed, huricaine, rain of fire, flamestrike, fan of knives, etc etc etc can be used on the pull. if you have bad luck, you need 3CS+ gcd of Zeal+ another CS (fixed on beta now) before using your first DS and do some aoe dmg. that's 3+3+1.5+1.5(+1.5) 10.5 sec for your first aoe move.
It's pathetic. on the ice tombs, you can't dps them too low, so you can't GAIN HP, so you can't aoe them after.
Pretty much whenever you can't dps for some reason, like letting the tank get aggro etc etc, meaning when you have to HOLD single target dps, you CAN'T aoe after. That is a fail design in my eyes, and something I really don't enjoy at all at the moment.
There is no skill involve. A mastery proc on the first melee swing to do Zeal and DS spam is lucky, or unlucky, nothing more. If you want your 3 Hp when the adds are coming, one can hold off dps to make sure you have them, or continue to dps and hope for a proc. either way, it's just luck, and by no means this thing is fun on high lvl of content.

[Requital]

make a ICC25 hc run and tell this again. I hate to break it to you, but it's actually the other way around.
The majority of good rets in top guilds don't think the design is working, whereas people with 245 251 ilvl gear that don't push the paladin class to it's limits are seeing an improvement. Our aoe is almost nonexistent since DS is really low dmg still, and the ramp time on it is SOO bad depending on luck. yesterday, by the time I could do 1 DS on sindy trash, everything was dead already. why? because, let's see.. humm, ah yeah. almost all AOE don't have a ramp time. seed, huricaine, rain of fire, flamestrike, fan of knives, etc etc etc can be used on the pull. if you have bad luck, you need 3CS+ gcd of Zeal+ another CS (fixed on beta now) before using your first DS and do some aoe dmg. that's 3+3+1.5+1.5(+1.5) 10.5 sec for your first aoe move.
It's pathetic. on the ice tombs, you can't dps them too low, so you can't GAIN HP, so you can't aoe them after.
Pretty much whenever you can't dps for some reason, like letting the tank get aggro etc etc, meaning when you have to HOLD single target dps, you CAN'T aoe after. That is a fail design in my eyes, and something I really don't enjoy at all at the moment.

My biggest issue with the current system no class has to sacrifice single target to AE but Ret. I don't like this most classes can in some way shape or form stick to the main target while using AE abilities and not completely kill their single target DPS we are not included in most classes so ya out AE is pretty much non existent while every caster in the game is hitting the 30-40K AE mark.

Hell our balance druid last night did 40K DPS through P1 Heroic LK I NEVER saw 40K as a Paladin in any situation on LK even when we were presumed to be an OP class.

[ragingsoul]

My biggest issue with the current system no class has to sacrifice single target to AE but Ret. I don't like this most classes can in some way shape or form stick to the main target while using AE abilities and not completely kill their single target DPS we are not included in most classes so ya out AE is pretty much non existent while every caster in the game is hitting the 30-40K AE mark.

Hell our balance druid last night did 40K DPS through P1 Heroic LK I NEVER saw 40K as a Paladin in any situation on LK even when we were presumed to be an OP class.

yeah we tried LK25 hc yesterday a bit too, but called the raid earlier. moonkins where doting with IS the adds, to help, as melees just can't aoe them. You have to hold dps on LK to have HP for the valkirs, or to even be able to use Zeal. either way, evey classes that use other resources than mana like rogues, have a define time to be able to use AOE. they know stoping 3 sec before adds come, that they will have the resources to aoe them, we don't, and this is just creating frustration when trying to max your class skill.

EDIT: I think the main issue is that most of the fights don't have adds. out of 12 bosses in ICC, only lady, PP, (dreamwalker + sindy to an extend) and LK have adds, and only LK is really an add fight, so most people can't see those problems, and can't understand why most of us say it's broken, as they only try 4 or 5 bosses, or just dps the dummies.