1. #2241
    At the risk of verging on offtopic - does anyone here play a feral in a 10 man hardcore guild? I'm bored out of my mind at the moment and thinking of playing WoW again. Would I be able to reasonably play feral DPS in a 10 man setting, or would I have to run another main spec?

    (by hardcore, I'm looking for progression-based raiding; 6/7, 7/7, whatever's current)

  2. #2242
    Cat fits fairly well into 10 man raiding, even if only due to the ability to also perform other roles. Being able to run a smallest possible roster is vital to maintaining an edge in HM progression, and I would consider having someone that can also tank/heal when required an asset but that’s pretty much an aspect of every druid.

    From a view of maximizing potential I’d suggest from what I’ve seen that Balance is currently the stronger DPS spec, and provide greater raid utility. Ranged in general is stronger on current content and if played to a very high level balance is one of the best dps classes for firelands. Some fights are also Very melee unfriendly.

    All that being said, I’ve played MS feral DPS with Tank OS in a high end 10 man guild and know a few others who do the same quiet successfully, but you will probably have a much easier time finding a raiding slot in a 6/7 (im assuming you mean hard mode) guild as something other than feral - Balance/Resto/Bears are in very high demand in these guilds.
    Last edited by Nayto; 2011-09-14 at 03:31 AM.

  3. #2243
    Dreadlord Fiana's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MasterNewbie View Post
    The 60-energy ravage never has more DPE than shred
    Can I look at your calculations? Because it looks different from statistical data.

    ---------- Post added 2011-09-14 at 03:46 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Tygroen View Post
    That's not even taking into account 2 pc tier 12 bonus and being able to start a fight instantly instead of moving in stealth'ed for a ravage (there would also be less pre-pot up time if you have to stealth afterwards too).
    2pc tir 12 bonus ticks for 2k every 2.5 seconds in average. Using ravage first is delaying mangle for 1 second(gcd). So its less than 1k damage from 2pt12.
    In the same time using ravage first allows you to apply rip faster. Now compare rip tick damage and 2pt12 tick damage.

    Moving stealthed? Why would you want to move stealthed? Thats really stupid idea to move stealthed. You should never do it
    If you still don't understand - there are just 2 bosses in cata where you have to use such mechanics - al'akir and ragnaros. Mostly because its impossible to charge and because they have no aggro radius.
    Prepot is working just fine. You use pot at 0 seconds of your tank pull countdown, you use stealth in the same time(it can be macroed but there is no reason for it really), you use ravage when you see your tank's name in boss target. There is absolutely no difference in how you pull. You would use your prepot and your first attack exactly at the same time with or without stealth.
    Last edited by Fiana; 2011-09-14 at 04:41 AM.

  4. #2244
    The Lightbringer Tharkkun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mihir View Post
    Posted my opinions in the Class Feedback thread: http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/forum/to...83?page=19#380
    I'd like to encourage everyone to either make a post of your own, or to upvote mine if you agree with my points
    Too bad I'm in the US. That post was very professional and to the point. Please bump it in europe!
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  5. #2245
    Quote Originally Posted by Fiana View Post
    Can I look at your calculations? Because it looks different from statistical data.
    Ravage is 950% + 56, Shred is 540% + 56. DPE of Ravage is only higher than Shred if:

    (9.5x+56)/60 > (1.2)(1.3)(5.4x+56)/40 %The 1.2 and 1.3 are from Rend and Tear and Mangle debuff respectively, x is your character sheet weapon damage
    That inequality is equivalent to this one:
    380x + 2240 > 505.44x + 5241.6, leads to
    -125.44x > 3000.4, which suggests x must be negative for it to happen. Well, weapon damage is never negative, so DPE of ravage is never higher than DPE of shred.

    The calculations that took into account the 1.5 CPs for shred and 2 CPs for ravage involve the same inequality, except
    2(380x + 2240) > 1.5(505.44x + 5241.6)

    Solving that, we can see the adjusted ravage is better when weapon damage is >1820.

    To determine the crit chance where shred is always better, instead of multiplying the left-hand side (LHS) by 2 and the right-hand side (RHS) by 1.5, I used (2) on the LHS and (1+k) on the RHS, k is your crit chance (I used 2 for the ravage side because I was assuming that we would have hit the effective crit cap for it). Doing similar algebra, let x->infinity, k converges to 0.5036.

    Note that none of this involves 2T12. Including that will introduce a 1.1 factor on the RHS and change about everything. If you want to see those calculations (I didn't really mess with 2T12 much, but I can do some if you want to see them) you will need to wait till tomorrow.
    Last edited by MasterNewbie; 2011-09-14 at 05:01 AM.

  6. #2246
    Quote Originally Posted by Fiana View Post
    2pc tir 12 bonus ticks for 2k every 2.5 seconds in average. Using ravage first is delaying mangle for 1 second(gcd). So its less than 1k damage from 2pt12.
    I don't think you understand how the set bonus works. It literally increases the damage of mangle and shred by 10%, so it doesn't matter how often it ticks.

  7. #2247
    Dreadlord Fiana's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MasterNewbie View Post
    Ravage is 950% + 56, Shred is 540% + 56. DPE of Ravage is only higher than Shred if:

    (9.5x+56)/60 > (1.2)(1.3)(5.4x+56)/40 %The 1.2 and 1.3 are from Rend and Tear and Mangle debuff respectively, x is your character sheet weapon damage
    That inequality is equivalent to this one:
    380x + 2240 > 505.44x + 5241.6, leads to
    -125.44x > 3000.4, which suggests x must be negative for it to happen. Well, weapon damage is never negative, so DPE of ravage is never higher than DPE of shred.

    The calculations that took into account the 1.5 CPs for shred and 2 CPs for ravage involve the same inequality, except
    2(380x + 2240) > 1.5(505.44x + 5241.6)

    Solving that, we can see the adjusted ravage is better when weapon damage is >1820.

    To determine the crit chance where shred is always better, instead of multiplying the left-hand side (LHS) by 2 and the right-hand side (RHS) by 1.5, I used (2) on the LHS and (1+k) on the RHS, k is your crit chance (I used 2 for the ravage side because I was assuming that we would have hit the effective crit cap for it). Doing similar algebra, let x->infinity, k converges to 0.5036.

    Note that none of this involves 2T12. Including that will introduce a 1.1 factor on the RHS and change about everything. If you want to see those calculations (I didn't really mess with 2T12 much, but I can do some if you want to see them) you will need to wait till tomorrow.
    ))
    Ok. Nice math. Looks to be true.
    But I have bad news for you. You can't use ravage instead of shred because you have to be stealthed to use it. So your math is pretty much useless.

    Now lets look how the real fight looks like.
    We are taking first 5 (just 5!) seconds of the fight. Everything above is pretty much the same.

    1. mangle - shred - tf - rake - [shred] - rip (mangle fight opening)
    2. ravage - mangle - tf - rake - [shred] - rip (ravage fight opening)

    Lets skip weapon damage calculations. Lets assume that shred hit is 20k, shred crit is 40k, with 50% crit chance average shred will hit for 30k. Ravage crit is 45k. Rounded statistical data from my 200 25HM ragnaros pulls.
    Shred cost is 40 energy, ravage cost is 60 energy. Making damage per energy(assuming crit) pretty much the same. 30k for 40energy = 45k for 60 energy.

    But its not the most interesting part.

    You need to get 5 combopoints as fast as possible to apply rip.
    In first case you need to have at least 2 crits out of 3 total hits to get 5cp.
    In second case you need to have 1 crit out of 2 hits.
    I guess we have to use Bernoulli binomial distribution to calculate chance to get 2 crits out of 3.
    It will be 3 * 0.5^3 *0.5 = 0.375 37.5% chance.
    In second case we will have 50% chance.

    In first case in 2 fights out of 3, after 3 hits you will end up with 4cp and you will have to use another shred to apply rip. You will lose additional cp from shred crit (31.5% chance)
    In second case every second fight you will be able to apply rip after 3 hits. Chance to lose aditional cp is just 25%

    So we are getting 12.5% chance to get 1 second of rip damage(15k*0.125=1.875k) and 6.5% chance to finish our opening with 1 additional CP.
    We will lose 0.8k damage from 2pt12 set bonus.

    Its definitely a theoretical gain.

    But gain is so miserable that I'm not going to use it any more.
    Last edited by Fiana; 2011-09-14 at 09:05 AM.

  8. #2248
    Fluffy Kitten Mihir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MasterNewbie View Post
    Solving that, we can see the adjusted ravage is better when weapon damage is >1820.
    Seeing as the current best weapon only has 840 weapon damage, this will not happen during cataclysm.

    ---------- Post added 2011-09-14 at 09:21 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiana View Post
    ))
    Ok. Nice math. Looks to be true.
    But I have bad news for you. You can't use ravage instead of shred because you have to be stealthed to use it. So you math is pretty much useless.
    The energy you use on Ravage would have been used on Shred instead if you didn't. So that's why you should compare it to Shred.

  9. #2249
    The Lightbringer Elunedra's Avatar
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    some while back i did the math and it turned out that its only worth it while the target was above 90% hp so you get 50% extra crit witch gives a higher DPE.

    also what if we get an OOC proc? Ravage would probely be the best option. dont forget we NE's can shadowmeld and ravage if we stand in melee behind the mob. (i am not sure if SM uses up the OOC proc)
    TREE DURID IS 4 PEE

  10. #2250
    Dreadlord Fiana's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zheryn View Post
    I don't think you understand how the set bonus works. It literally increases the damage of mangle and shred by 10%, so it doesn't matter how often it ticks.
    You really call "literally increases the damage of mangle and shred by 10%" decent explanation of how it works?

    Look at logs. its more than simple.
    You use shred/mangle, it applies dot. Dot ticks after 2.5 seconds in average after your hit. It will tick again after 4.5 seconds without refresh. It will tick every 2 seconds if you keep refreshing it. Refresh will set dot damage to 10% of hit, but it can be refreshed with newer hit before tick if you spam fast enough and your ping is low. So quick shred after mangle will be potential dps increase(its useless to even care about it)

    [23:46:36.955] Lurel hits Baleroc 2009
    [23:46:37.295] Lurel Mangle Baleroc 7954 (B: 3409)
    [23:46:37.673] Lurel crits Baleroc *4461*
    [23:46:38.301] Lurel crits Baleroc *7476*
    [23:46:38.973] Lurel crits Baleroc *7804*
    [23:46:39.178] Lurel Shred Baleroc *34107*
    [23:46:39.452] Lurel Fury Swipes Baleroc *12819*
    [23:46:39.649] Lurel crits Baleroc *7164*
    [23:46:39.790] Lurel Fiery Claws Baleroc 398
    [23:46:40.356] Lurel Ravage! Baleroc *47285*
    [23:46:40.356] Lurel hits Baleroc 3508
    [23:46:40.850] Lurel hits Baleroc 3310
    [23:46:41.421] Lurel crits Baleroc *8589*
    [23:46:41.465] Lurel Rake Baleroc 9316
    [23:46:41.843] Lurel Fiery Claws Baleroc 1402

    Anyways, in my case timeline will be
    1s mangle 2s shred 3s rake 3.5s mangle dot tick 4s shred 5s rip 5.5s shred dot tick 6sec shred 7sec shred + rip dot tick ... etc
    1s ravage 2s mangle 3s rake 4s rip 4.5s mangle dot tick 5s shred... 6s shred + rip dot tick 6.5s shred dot tick ... etc


    We are losing 1 second of fiery claws at pull in second case . But damn it... there is no point to even talk about it. The difference is not worth it.

    ---------- Post added 2011-09-14 at 08:47 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Mihir View Post
    Seeing as the current best weapon only has 840 weapon damage, this will not happen during cataclysm.
    Its kinda weird. Math seems to be ok, at least I can't find any problems with it. But statistically ravage hits 50% harder than shred.
    There should be some kind of explanation for it. Any ideas?

    ---------- Post added 2011-09-14 at 08:59 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Elunedra View Post
    some while back i did the math and it turned out that its only worth it while the target was above 90% hp so you get 50% extra crit witch gives a higher DPE.
    Not worth it. I used guaranteed ravage just to get my rip faster.
    If you will want to spend 120 energy, 2 ravage will give you 4CP without any chance to proc more, 3 shreds - 4.5CP in average. Never less than 3 and sometimes 6.
    Ravage damage is nearly the same as shred damage. No reason to use it.

    Shadowmeld+ooc looks interesting, but you will lose several autoattacks. Anyways, I'm happy tauren and I just don't care. (/dance)
    Last edited by Fiana; 2011-09-14 at 09:04 AM.

  11. #2251
    uah Mihir, why did you mention Claw? If they listen to you, they're gonna make that ability mandatory again! :P
    It looks great, but Will It Mog? | Are you fully Glyphed?

  12. #2252
    Quote Originally Posted by Mihir View Post
    Seeing as the current best weapon only has 840 weapon damage, this will not happen during cataclysm.
    Not weapon weapon damage, but your character sheet weapon damage. I don't recall what mine was at the time I quit, but I think 1820 is achievable. Though that number is heavily dependent on your effective crit chance.

  13. #2253
    Fluffy Kitten Mihir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fiana View Post
    Anyways, in my case timeline will be
    1s mangle 2s shred 3s rake 3.5s mangle dot tick 4s shred 5s rip 5.5s shred dot tick 6sec shred 7sec shred + rip dot tick ... etc
    1s ravage 2s mangle 3s rake 4s rip 4.5s mangle dot tick 5s shred... 6s shred + rip dot tick 6.5s shred dot tick ... etc


    We are losing 1 second of fiery claws at pull in second case . But damn it... there is no point to even talk about it. The difference is not worth it.
    You don't lose any seconds, since the dot is recomputed after every shred/mangle hit. So the final fiery claws damage will be exactly the same, regardless of when you shred/mangle, as long as the number of shreds & mangles is the same.

  14. #2254
    Dreadlord Fiana's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MasterNewbie View Post
    Not weapon weapon damage, but your character sheet weapon damage. I don't recall what mine was at the time I quit, but I think 1820 is achievable. Though that number is heavily dependent on your effective crit chance.
    Its 1612 - 2419 for Fandral's heroic.

    I did pretty interesting research.

    I wrote a small macro for my keyboard

    Stealth
    Ravage
    Mangle
    Shred
    Esc (to drop agro)

    I did over 100 iterations with my feral druid on boss training dummy. In cat spec, with pve gear, without trinkets (to avoid procs). No buffs(even motw).

    Average numbers:
    Shred: crit 20170 hit 9970
    Ravage: crit 29910 hit 15230(8 hits)

    Total Ravage damage was 40% out of all damage. Total shred damage was 20% of all damage.

    It means that statistically, without raid buffs, ravage is doing 2x more damage than shred.

    I was pretty much impressed by this result. It means that ravage hits like truck, huge 100% amount of extra damage for just 50% more energy.

    But as I already said it does not work like this in raid environment. In raids ravage does just 50% more damage than shred.

    I wonder what is that source of extra shred damage buff in raid environment. And why ravage is not affected.

  15. #2255
    Fluffy Kitten Mihir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mihir View Post
    You don't lose any seconds, since the dot is recomputed after every shred/mangle hit. So the final fiery claws damage will be exactly the same, regardless of when you shred/mangle, as long as the number of shreds & mangles is the same.
    Example of how fiery claws works:

    Assume mangle hits for 15k, and shred for 25k on average.

    0.0 mangle 15K
    Fiery Claws total remaining damage: 15k/10 = 1.5k. Number of ticks remaining: 2 (since its new). So 0.75k damage per tick for 2 ticks.
    1.0 shred 25k
    Fiery Claws total remaining damage: 1.5k + 25k/10 = 4k. Number of ticks remaining: 3 (since it just got refreshed). So 4/3 = 1.33k damage per tick for 3 ticks.
    2.0 rake
    2.5 fiery claws 1.33k

    Fiery Claws total remaining damage: 4k - 1.33k = 2.67k. Number of ticks remaining: 2. So 1.33k damage per tick for 2 ticks.
    3.0 shred 25k
    Fiery Claws total remaining damage: 2.67k + 25k/10 = 5.17k. Number of ticks remaining: 3. So 1.72k damage per tick for 3 ticks.
    4.0 rip
    4.5 fiery claws 1.72k

    Fiery Claws total remaining damage: 5.17k - 1.72k = 3.44k. Number of ticks remaining: 2. So 1.72k damage per tick for 2 ticks.
    5.0 shred 25k
    5.0 rake tick

    Fiery Claws total remaining damage: 3.44k + 25k/10 = 5.94k. Number of ticks remaining: 3. So 1.98k damage per tick for 3 ticks.
    6.0 shred 25k
    6.0 rip tick

    Fiery Claws total remaining damage: 5.94k + 25k/10 = 8.44k. Number of ticks remaining: 3. So 2.81k damage per tick for 3 ticks.
    6.5 fiery claws 2.81k
    Fiery Claws total remaining damage: 8.44k - 2.81k = 5.63k. Number of ticks remaining: 2. So 2.81k damage per tick for 2 ticks.

    Etc.

  16. #2256
    Field Marshal Ekthelion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fiana View Post
    ...
    Stealth
    Ravage
    Mangle
    Shred
    Esc (to drop agro)
    ....

    I wonder what is that source of extra shred damage buff in raid environment. And why ravage is not affected.
    Tell me you took Rend and Tear talent under consideration and Your target had a bleed active during those tests...because macro clearly states it didn't...

    ---------- Post added 2011-09-14 at 03:13 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiana View Post
    ))
    We are taking first 5 (just 5!) seconds of the fight. Everything above is pretty much the same.

    1. mangle - shred - tf - rake - [shred] - rip (mangle fight opening)
    2. ravage - mangle - tf - rake - [shred] - rip (ravage fight opening)
    Why shred before any bleed on the target...?
    Last edited by Ekthelion; 2011-09-14 at 01:24 PM.
    Da Vuhdo iz wid'ya mon!

  17. #2257
    Dreadlord Fiana's Avatar
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    )
    Its really basic knowledge. Read your abilities description.
    Shred the target, causing 540% damage plus 56 to the target. Must be behind the target. Awards 1 combo point. Effects which increase Bleed damage also increase Shred damage.
    Mangle the target for 540% normal damage plus 56 and causes the target to take 30% additional damage from bleed effects for 1 min.

  18. #2258
    Fluffy Kitten Mihir's Avatar
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    http://db.mmo-champion.com/s/51269/r - Increases damage done by your Maul and Shred attacks on bleeding targets by 20%, and increases the critical strike chance of your Ferocious Bite ability on bleeding targets by 25%.

    So your shred before rake/rip is missing this 20% bonus.

  19. #2259
    Field Marshal Ekthelion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mihir View Post
    http://db.mmo-champion.com/s/51269/r - Increases damage done by your Maul and Shred attacks on bleeding targets by 20%, and increases the critical strike chance of your Ferocious Bite ability on bleeding targets by 25%.

    So your shred before rake/rip is missing this 20% bonus.
    ) Its really basic knowledge Fiana. Read your talent description.
    Da Vuhdo iz wid'ya mon!

  20. #2260
    Sorry if this was mentioned before, haven't raided since mid-4.0 (got 2T12 through valor, but didn't really test it) but does Fiery Claws actually work in a smart/stacking way? o.O I thought the feral version of the "fire damage on hit" for physical classes was the worst one, since we usually spam Shred whenever possible, and each re-application the next second would simply overwrite the previous one.
    Last edited by Nathanyel; 2011-09-14 at 02:04 PM.
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