1. #261
    Quote Originally Posted by The Cat View Post
    The valks have a HUGE hit box, sometimes it may look like you are behind them if you are on their ass, but you aren't. Just hang back and off to the side, better for defiles that way anyways. So that could account for the "you must be behind the target" error, not sure about the others though, aside from the obvious you actually didn't have enough energy to attack.
    trust me , i checked if i had enough eneregy. and it was at 100 so yea.

  2. #262
    why do so many high end druids take glyph of faerie fire? i.e. the guide on Fluid Druid says that it is actually mandatory? What value in 10 yds am I missing? (maybe I should ask over there but this forums seems to have more people posting)

  3. #263
    There really aren't many good Major glyphs. Other than Feral Charge and perhaps Rebirth and Barkskin, what else would you use?

  4. #264
    Yea I know the choice is bleak so it would probably be taken regardless of importance (only other I've heard people consider is thorns on the tank) but my question was mainly aimed at what value this guide was emphasizing on the FF glyph

  5. #265
    Quote Originally Posted by Fannar View Post
    offtopic here tho , on val'kyr i sometimes get these error messages like "not enough eneregy" "you must be behind the target" "invalid target"
    does that happen to you kitties or am i just going insane?
    If you're doing heroic you prob tab targeted to one flying overhead that's been knocked to sub 50% already.

  6. #266
    Fluffy Kitten Mihir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hera View Post
    Yea I know the choice is bleak so it would probably be taken regardless of importance (only other I've heard people consider is thorns on the tank) but my question was mainly aimed at what value this guide was emphasizing on the FF glyph
    Maybe you should ask this on the fluiddruid forum instead
    Personally I can't think of any encounters which would benefit of bigger range on faerie fire for feral dps. But it's decent for soloing, allows you to tag mobs easier.

  7. #267
    Quote Originally Posted by Mihir View Post
    [url] are you putting bleeds on all the valkyrs?
    Continuing this discussion, by bleeds, do you mean bleeds as in rake only and then single-target dps or just spam Rip aswell on as many valks you can?

  8. #268
    Quote Originally Posted by superfula View Post
    There really aren't many good Major glyphs. Other than Feral Charge and perhaps Rebirth and Barkskin, what else would you use?
    Feral charge, rebirth, rake.


    Quote Originally Posted by 25165453757
    I am excite

  9. #269
    Rake is useless

  10. #270
    Quote Originally Posted by scorch109 View Post
    Rake [glyph] is useless
    fixed. I hit the 'new post' button and spent a bit of time trying to figure out what cat would call rake useless lol.

  11. #271
    Fluffy Kitten Mihir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gollie View Post
    Continuing this discussion, by bleeds, do you mean bleeds as in rake only and then single-target dps or just spam Rip aswell on as many valks you can?
    rake - mangle (if needed) - (shred to 4 cp) - rip - tab

    i generally skip shred on the 2nd and 3rd valks.

    if you got another feral, or arms warr/hemo rogue putting up mangle for you, make it a priority to put rake on those targets first.
    Last edited by Mihir; 2010-11-16 at 10:09 PM.

  12. #272
    is the break point 4 combo points?
    I tend to rake mangle rip 2 valks before single targeting 3rd, occasional non crits put me ripping at 3.

  13. #273
    Fluffy Kitten Mihir's Avatar
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    From my calcs, if you are at 4CP, shredding for 5 is worth less dps than putting bleeds on the next target 1 second sooner.

  14. #274
    lol sorry bavar

  15. #275
    I was looking at the guide and I think some added detail might be useful on a few key points.

    The Ferocious Bite glyph is not useless and shouldn't be avoided. Point of fact, all of the DPS calculators (even Mew and previously Toskk's) assume you always use precisely 35 energy when you bite. If anything, this will guarantee said dps will match the simulations. (Indeed, I was within .5% of mew's simulation suggested damage for my toon.) At the moment, I would argue that it isn't useless to the majority of players - and most especially the ones who don't use mods to properly track every bit of the John Madden style depiction of our dps priorities (though it has gotten a fair amount easier post 4.0). It is only useless if, and only if, you hit everything at exactly the right time with absolutely no mistakes made ever.

    While on the subject of glyphs, it seems that Mew (at least for my gear) is suggesting the delta between Berserk and Shred glyphs is less than 1 dps even under perfect and ideal scenarios. I'm not sure it should be written off as less than ideal. Indeed, it rather depends on your gear (mine is mostly 264s with one or two exceptions).

    Another thing I'm not entirely sure is correct will be the assumption of stats. The problem in "bis" (best in slot for those not following along with acronyms) is that it isn't always "bis" unless you miraculously manage to get every piece of gear on your wishlist. I don't know about the rest of the gaming audience in general, but my experience in the last 5 years has been that either what I want doesn't drop (I remember 14 weeks in a row KT never dropped my weapon... (same in BC and Classic)) or it's given to someone else in the raid (for whatever reason - be it good or bad). It seems kind of pointless to list the 'bis' items since that's going to depend on what your current gear is and what your current level of progression is. (Indeed, GC and several other blues on the forums have tried to explain this to the user populace on more than one occasion to be blindly ignored.)

    I worry that decrying or touting some things as 'worthless' or 'best' without the proper context sets incorrect expectations.
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  16. #276
    Woah, just noticed the nerfed the hell out of the 2 pc and 4 pc blue sets, it was 100 agi and 300 agi now its 70 agi and 100something agi =(

    Not sure what I'm going to do now!

  17. #277
    Fluffy Kitten Mihir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paskgotsheal View Post
    Woah, just noticed the nerfed the hell out of the 2 pc and 4 pc blue sets, it was 100 agi and 300 agi now its 70 agi and 100something agi =(

    Not sure what I'm going to do now!
    awesome.. being forced to pvp to get the best gear for pve sucks :P

    ---------- Post added 2010-11-19 at 07:27 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaiie View Post
    The Ferocious Bite glyph is not useless and shouldn't be avoided. Point of fact, all of the DPS calculators (even Mew and previously Toskk's) assume you always use precisely 35 energy when you bite. If anything, this will guarantee said dps will match the simulations. (Indeed, I was within .5% of mew's simulation suggested damage for my toon.) At the moment, I would argue that it isn't useless to the majority of players - and most especially the ones who don't use mods to properly track every bit of the John Madden style depiction of our dps priorities (though it has gotten a fair amount easier post 4.0). It is only useless if, and only if, you hit everything at exactly the right time with absolutely no mistakes made ever.
    FB has the same DPE regardless of if you use 35 or 70 energy on it. So if a simulator decides it's better DPE than shred while using exactly 35 energy on it, it will also be better DPE when you use more on it. So using energy on FB instead of on shred will increase your dps, therefore maximizing your energy spent on FB (without interrupting your bleeds) will be preferable.

    If you have trouble getting enough CPs to keep Rip and SR up 100% of the time, you could consider glyphing it.
    Last edited by Mihir; 2010-11-19 at 06:28 PM.

  18. #278
    Quote Originally Posted by Mihir View Post
    FB has the same DPE regardless of if you use 35 or 70 energy on it. So if a simulator decides it's better DPE than shred while using exactly 35 energy on it, it will also be better DPE when you use more on it. So using energy on FB instead of on shred will increase your dps, therefore maximizing your energy spent on FB (without interrupting your bleeds) will be preferable.
    DPE isn't the only factor. You allude to this by pointing out that keeping your bleeds active would be preferable. If FB existed in a vacuum and we didn't have to worry about the others, I'd agree with your point about DPE. My point also is that combo point generation is going to become even more important, and naturally energy is a factor of this, in Cataclysm since we will rarely enjoy the copious amounts of crit we are seeing today.

    I'll use past experience as a gauge here (it is also echoed by the developers and the folks in beta): The moment we level to 81, our crit will drop. Right? Assuming we continue to regear, we'll still not see the same amounts of crit that we have right now until, if we're extremely lucky, the end of Cataclysm raiding (which, incidentally is where we are now in WotlK). The mechanics of the game are not changing. We're still dependent on crit for combo point generation. (Where is Jaiie going with this, you might ask... keep reading)

    Crit determines combo point generation. If you don't crit, you don't generate combo points as quickly. (That's a given) Which also means you're using more energy. As the majority of our damage is energy driven, this becomes a cascading dependency of issues. So, your goal (the royal you, not you specifically) should be to conserve energy in so far as using the best available tools to do so.

    Reducing Ferocious Bite's impact on that energy consumption is not a bad thing. In fact, glyphing it guarantees your numbers match closely (let's use a Saurfang/Patchwerk style fight as an example) with the calculators. They assume that you use exactly 35 energy (they're using average energy regen and cycles in their computational models remember - in addition to the combo points averaged in based on crit).

    If you hit every single thing on cue with absolutely no faults, you're right. The glyph is not that stellar in such a perfect case (though it will still have a positive net effect even if that is minor). However, there will rarely ever be a perfect fight where you can do so. Indeed, as mentioned, the simulators show a zero change if you do or do not have it. Because, again as mentioned, they assume you're hitting the bite at 35 energy (no more and no less) - this is also in Toskk's DPS Method (prior to the advent of Mew by his successor). So, according to the simulator, it would have a net effect of zero with that in mind. However, Toskk (and later his successor) was the first one to point out that the model in and of itself (even before the glyph) was not perfect as it could not factor those variables in. The glyph, again, makes sure you fit as closely to the model as is possible (i.e. Not burning energy in the very energy intensive dps cycles of a feral).

    If you'll recall, the majority of the feral dps theorycrafters (of which I contributed as Yakut and Jaiie on the forums before they aged out of the older forums) asked Blizzard for this glyph's functionality time and time again. Not in a glyph as such - so much as removing the Energy to Damage conversion (e.g. execute) mechanic beyond FB's 35 energy initial cost. Blizzard gave the theorycrafters exactly what they asked for. And, I should once again remind you that this how every single theorycrafting engine (Rawr and Mew -- and previously Toskk's DPS Method) all work.

    My point is that it's generally not a useless glyph unless you're a perfect automaton that never misses a beat and never makes a mistake. However, I do not think the majority of the human race on this planet falls under that umbrella.

    Edit to add: And don't just take my word for it. Elitist Jerks actually agrees with me on this point: http://elitistjerks.com/f73/t101212-...0_cats/#Glyphs

    From their site:
    Glyphing Ferocious Bite is probably better for sustained dps than allowing it to consume extra energy, but the rest of the slots are not directly focused on dps. Glyph of rebirth looks good but do keep in mind that Rebirth has a 30 minute cooldown now so you won't be using it as often as you probably are on Live.
    Your assumption that the DPE is based off of any amount of energy with FB is incorrect. ALL calculations assume 35 energy. The DPE will actually vary (and get considerably worse) when you use more than 35.
    Last edited by Angosia; 2010-11-20 at 01:25 AM. Reason: Edit to add EJ post
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  19. #279
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaiie View Post
    DPE isn't the only factor. You allude to this by pointing out that keeping your bleeds active would be preferable. If FB existed in a vacuum and we didn't have to worry about the others, I'd agree with your point about DPE. My point also is that combo point generation is going to become even more important, and naturally energy is a factor of this, in Cataclysm since we will rarely enjoy the copious amounts of crit we are seeing today.
    Basically, using the highest DPE ability is always best, as long as it doesn't hinder the use (or uptime) of a higher DPE ability. In Cataclysm, our combo point generation will be slower, and players will have to adapt to the new curve. My issue with the Glyph of Ferocious Bite is that it eliminates one's ability to ever maximize Ferocious Bite, when it has a higher DPE than any other non-bleed ability. The Feral playstyle will slow down as our crit percent falls, but the opportunity will still arise when you have enough time on Rip and SR, and a new 5 combo points. This will happen even more often when Blood in the Water applies.

    Mihir doesn't say to always use Ferocious Bite at 70 Energy. But if the conditions are right - building the extra Energy won't hinder a Bleed uptime or much of a Savage Roar uptime - to do so is ideal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaiie View Post
    Crit determines combo point generation. If you don't crit, you don't generate combo points as quickly. (That's a given) Which also means you're using more energy. As the majority of our damage is energy driven, this becomes a cascading dependency of issues. So, your goal (the royal you, not you specifically) should be to conserve energy in so far as using the best available tools to do so.
    By this logic, we should be using Mangle to build our combo points and we should forget about Shred, since Mangle costs less Energy. Conserving energy isn't as important as using it most efficiently, by procuring the most damage from a set amount of energy. The difficulty in this, and the point that you are trying to make, is that Cat DPS is complex (we can't always predict how our current decisions will impact our future situations) and, come Cataclysm, we will have less resources with which to maintain our greatest DPE ability: Rip.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaiie View Post
    If you hit every single thing on cue with absolutely no faults, you're right. The glyph is not that stellar in such a perfect case (though it will still have a positive net effect even if that is minor). However, there will rarely ever be a perfect fight where you can do so. Indeed, as mentioned, the simulators show a zero change if you do or do not have it. Because, again as mentioned, they assume you're hitting the bite at 35 energy (no more and no less) - this is also in Toskk's DPS Method (prior to the advent of Mew by his successor). So, according to the simulator, it would have a net effect of zero with that in mind. However, Toskk (and later his successor) was the first one to point out that the model in and of itself (even before the glyph) was not perfect as it could not factor those variables in. The glyph, again, makes sure you fit as closely to the model as is possible (i.e. Not burning energy in the very energy intensive dps cycles of a feral).

    If you'll recall, the majority of the feral dps theorycrafters (of which I contributed as Yakut and Jaiie on the forums before they aged out of the older forums) asked Blizzard for this glyph's functionality time and time again. Not in a glyph as such - so much as removing the Energy to Damage conversion (e.g. execute) mechanic beyond FB's 35 energy initial cost. Blizzard gave the theorycrafters exactly what they asked for. And, I should once again remind you that this how every single theorycrafting engine (Rawr and Mew -- and previously Toskk's DPS Method) all work.
    As you say, the simulators can't choose to wait for 70 Energy in their computations. That's a judgement call that only we make. However, just because the simulator can't factor those variables doesn't mean that their method (always using Ferocious Bite at 35 Energy) is best. Glyph of Ferocious Bite would allow a player to more closely align his DPS with that of the simulators, but to do so is pointless if the simulator 'rotation' doesn't provide the greatest damage output. Mihir extrapolated on an aspect of Feral gameplay that the simulators can't incorporate and came to the conclusion that a 70-Energy Ferocious Bite is better than a 35-Energy Ferocious Bite + 1 Shred.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaiie View Post
    My point is that it's generally not a useless glyph unless you're a perfect automaton that never misses a beat and never makes a mistake. However, I do not think the majority of the human race on this planet falls under that umbrella.
    Fair enough. If you are having issues keeping Rip and Savage Roar up, then Glyph of Ferocious Bite may help. But if you can master Feral gameplay with the fewer combo points of Cataclysm, then this glyph will limit you from maximizing your overall damage.

  20. #280
    Hello guys,i used to play enha shaman and i recently decided to reroll feral cat so i am kinda a newbie..Havent been in a raid so far but i keep practising on dummies and i have 2 questions about the "rotation".

    1. Wouldnt it be better if you start with a quick 5-combo Rip instead of SR?For example:
    i)Feral Charge/F.F
    ii)Mangle
    iii)Shred
    iv)Tiger's Fury(for the extra dmg in Rake and Rip as Mihir said in his guide)
    v)Rake
    vi)Ravage
    vii)Rip

    I am asking this because white dmg is about 15% of the overall dmg and Rip is about 30% so i guess a fast Rip would be a better start..And the second question.

    2.Its about SR and how to keep it up..I mean should i go for a 5-combo SR everytime?For example if i have more than 12 secs left on Rip, wouldnt it be better to use an 1-2 combo SR and then go for a 5-combo Ferocious Bite?Will i make it in time for a 5-combo Rip before it falls out, in that way?

    Sorry if the questions are noobish but i am still learning the class so be gentle with me plz and btw nice guide Mihir..

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