1. #3201
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rioo View Post
    You're delaying the first rip with too long, and using Ravage! before TF. Savage Roar should be applied after Rip imo.
    You're right, Rip should be up before SR, but you want to use your t13 free ravage before TF because if you don't the set bonus one will overwrite your charge one.

    Opener with 4pc t13 should look like:

    Pot -> Charge/FF -> Mangle -> Rake -> Ravage! -> (Shred to get a fifth CP or to dump more energy before TF) -> TF/Beserk(pop Kiro, APS or Springs if you have) -> Rip -> Ravage! -> Rake(clipped with a TFed one) -> SR -> Shred -> Etc, Etc, Etc.

  2. #3202
    Quote Originally Posted by Buwwy View Post
    Opener with 4pc t13 should look like:

    Pot -> Charge/FF -> Mangle -> Rake -> Ravage! -> (Shred to get a fifth CP or to dump more energy before TF) -> TF/Beserk(pop Kiro, APS or Springs if you have) -> Rip -> Ravage! -> Rake(clipped with a TFed one) -> SR -> Shred -> Etc, Etc, Etc.
    This is basically the exact thing i do (have 4 t13 also) but what bothers me is that after that initial mangle and rake in 80% of the cases i get a clearcast proc and sometimes even two of them which makes me either delay rip or wasting energy from TF.

  3. #3203
    I have only recently got 4t13 and I still open how I have always (with the addition of an extra ravage) which is: Pot -> Charge/FF -> Mangle -> Rake -> SR -> Ravage -> Shred to 5CP -> TF/Berserk/Berserking -> Rip -> Ravage -> Etc. And I have found that this works rather well with the first rip falling off with just enough time to apply a new one with the pot buff. Works for me anyway!

  4. #3204
    Stood in the Fire
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    It just came up on fluiddruid and mew.

    Seems like Glyph of TF is NOT better than Glyph of BloodLetting even with 4pT13 in current mew and pretty much any gear level.
    Last edited by Sorcereria; 2011-12-24 at 10:38 PM.

  5. #3205
    Quote Originally Posted by Elunedra View Post
    but shoulnd we always use the first free Ravage! before we use TF ?

    it get difficult as you also want to use TF before you use Rip, and by that time you already want to have mangle & rake up...
    My mistake if it was with t13 4p in mind. Still think SR should be delayed until after rip tho.

  6. #3206
    Quote Originally Posted by Sorcereria View Post
    It just came up on fluiddruid and mew.

    Seems like Glyph of TF is NOT better than Glyph of BloodLetting even with 4pT13 in current mew and pretty much any gear level.
    At this point everything is leaning towards that conclusion, hopefully Yawning and Mihir can confirm this because i really hate playing without bloodletting.

  7. #3207
    Quote Originally Posted by Krafmon View Post
    At this point everything is leaning towards that conclusion, hopefully Yawning and Mihir can confirm this because i really hate playing without bloodletting.
    Just my words. Try play without it for a night, and go back... Such nice helper! Not to mention on trash/bosses where you multi-dot.

  8. #3208
    Stood in the Fire Paloro's Avatar
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    Anyone know if the healing buffs on hc ultraxion affect the feral 4p in any way? My guild is planning on 5 healing it, so an extra spot would be open for me to grab if it did benefit from a buff.

  9. #3209
    Is it not worth it to ferocious bite during berserk when you hit 5cb? Should I just be shredding non-stop even thought I have 5cb?

  10. #3210
    Quote Originally Posted by Makaveli9090 View Post
    Is it not worth it to ferocious bite during berserk when you hit 5cb? Should I just be shredding non-stop even thought I have 5cb?
    Taking a quote from few pages back:
    Quote Originally Posted by MasterNewbie View Post
    During berserk, the DPE of FB varies. At certain points it is higher, at certain points it is lower than that of shred. Though to be honest, I don't think it will make a noticeable difference either way. I would also recommend FB'ing when appropriate.
    What this means i think is that when under berserk and you have low energy FB>shred but when at high enough energy for FB to consume 25 energy for 100% more dmg then Shred>FB. People can correct me if wrong, i just find this to be logical without a mathematical proof so take this with a grain of salt.

  11. #3211
    Quote Originally Posted by Krafmon View Post
    At this point everything is leaning towards that conclusion, hopefully Yawning and Mihir can confirm this because i really hate playing without bloodletting.
    Yep this is confirmed. Most of the reason was a bug in Predatory Strikes being fixed.

  12. #3212
    Am I mistaken or is there no where that states whether or not pooling energy for the extra damage on FB is worth it? Both in and out of berserk.

    Also, anyone else love and hate this about our dps?

    Mastery stacked (2100mastery / 1243 haste / 1217 crit) 43312 dps
    Haste stacked (2700haste / 1184 mastery / 927 crit) 43941 dps
    Crit stacked (2152crit / 1346 haste / 1246 mastery) 43535 dps

  13. #3213
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krafmon View Post
    What this means i think is that when under berserk and you have low energy FB>shred but when at high enough energy for FB to consume 25 energy for 100% more dmg then Shred>FB. People can correct me if wrong, i just find this to be logical without a mathematical proof so take this with a grain of salt.
    I haven't done the math either, but I do find this the logical thought process. I usually shred away my berserk with maybe one FB when I'm getting low on energy, as to not burn extra energy.

  14. #3214
    Quote Originally Posted by Buwwy View Post
    You're right, Rip should be up before SR
    Just wanted to say, unless you get to 5 CPs before getting Rip or SR up, SR should go up first. It has to do with SR doing competitive DPE with Rip and not requiring the full 5 CPs for 100% effectiveness. Mew does this:

    Code:
    3.000: Savage Roar: CPs: 3
    3.000: Energy: 80 -> 55 / 100 CPs: 3 -> 0
    3.213: White Swing: Yawningstrasza CRIT Damage: 10613
    3.213: Omen of Clarity
    3.820: White Swing: Yawningstrasza HIT Damage: 5230
    4.000: Shred: Yawningstrasza HIT Damage: 25001
    4.000: Omen of Clarity Consumed
    4.000: Energy: 70 / 100 CPs: 0 -> 1
    4.426: White Swing: Yawningstrasza HIT Damage: 5301
    5.000: Ravage: Yawningstrasza CRIT Damage: 58953
    5.000: Stampede: Expiration
    5.000: Energy: 85 / 100 CPs: 1 -> 3
    5.000: Rake Tick: Yawningstrasza HIT Damage: 11781
    5.032: White Swing: Yawningstrasza GLANCE Damage: 4034
    5.639: White Swing: Yawningstrasza CRIT Damage: 11080
    5.639: Fury Swipes: Yawningstrasza CRIT Damage: 19083
    6.000: Shred: Yawningstrasza HIT Damage: 25732
    6.000: Energy: 100 -> 60 / 100 CPs: 3 -> 4
    6.245: White Swing: Yawningstrasza CRIT Damage: 11168
    6.851: White Swing: Yawningstrasza CRIT Damage: 11257
    7.000: Shred: Yawningstrasza CRIT Damage: 53421
    7.000: Proc Refresh: Wrath of Unchaining (416) Expiration: 17.00
    7.000: Energy: 75 -> 35 / 100 CPs: 4 -> 5
    7.458: White Swing: Yawningstrasza CRIT Damage: 11257
    8.000: Shred: Yawningstrasza CRIT Damage: 53834
    8.000: Energy: 50 -> 10 / 100 CPs: 5
    8.000: Rake Tick: Yawningstrasza CRIT Damage: 24269
    8.064: White Swing: Yawningstrasza CRIT Damage: 11345
    8.670: White Swing: Yawningstrasza CRIT Damage: 11345
    8.670: Fury Swipes: Yawningstrasza HIT Damage: 9485
    9.000: Tiger's Fury
    9.000: Energy: 25 -> 85 / 100 CPs: 5
    9.000: Primal Madness: Energy: 105 / 120
    9.000: Stampede
    9.000: Berserk
    9.000: Proc Trigger: Kiroptyric Sigil
    9.000: Rip: Yawningstrasza HIT

  15. #3215
    Quote Originally Posted by MasterNewbie View Post
    Just wanted to say, unless you get to 5 CPs before getting Rip or SR up, SR should go up first.
    Wait, what? "If you can't reach your goal in 3 steps, go all the way back and try again"

    Always put up 5CP Rip first. If you're crazy about SR, apply it with the first 1-2 CPs generated afterwards. Then aim for a 4-5x, say 'normal' SR, then build CPs again to be ready to refresh Rip in time.

    By the way, don't you hate the fact that you can refresh SR with a shorter duration? SnD gives an error when you attempt that.
    It looks great, but Will It Mog? | Are you fully Glyphed?

  16. #3216
    Yawning
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nathanyel View Post
    Wait, what? "If you can't reach your goal in 3 steps, go all the way back and try again"

    Always put up 5CP Rip first. If you're crazy about SR, apply it with the first 1-2 CPs generated afterwards. Then aim for a 4-5x, say 'normal' SR, then build CPs again to be ready to refresh Rip in time.
    Prove it (Hint, you probably can't).

    With 4T13:
    What Mew does (SVN): FF->Mangle->Rake->SR->Ravage!->Shred->TF/Berserk->Ravage!->Rip
    Alternative: FF->Mangle->Rake->Ravage!->Shred->TF/Berserk->Rip->Rake->SR (Great, you're wasting 1-2 cps at a minimum, and 2 seconds of Rip uptime for 4 seconds of SR uptime (2 of it with TF up) is a terrible tradeoff....).

    Without 4T13:
    What Mew does: FF->Mangle->Rake->SR->Shred->TF/Berserk->Shred->Ravage!->Rip
    Alternative: FF->Mangle->Rake->Shred->TF/Berserk->Rip->Ravage!->SR (Grats you traded off 3 secs of Rip uptime for 3 secs of SR uptime, 2 of it with TF up.)

    The difference in openers is more pronounced for 4T13 than without. OoC complicates things since the SR favored priority list has one additional global worth of time where OoC procing will push back Rip, but on the other hand early OoC procs only push back Rip as opposed to both Rip and SR. For profiles that I care about pushing back Rip #1 is also partially mitigated by Kiril and Wrath of Unchaining as well (More chances to proc/ramp up and higher stack count respectively).

    The differences in openers while statistically significant don't really matter for the average player since they don't actually do enough combat over the course of a tier to be able to accurately tell the difference from noise (especially accounting for the fact that most people suck and don't play nearly as well as a simulator can).

    Note: I adjusted the script ever so slightly tonight to handle opening better but it has no bearing on this discussion (It was being stupid and clipping a Ravage! somewhat rarely. I also changed how actions inside the TF window end up being ordered but that's DPS neutral.).

    PS: Finally getting around to making an account here, even though I probably won't post much. All the unholy abominations that call themselves openers goaded me into doing so, Congratulations.

  17. #3217
    Quote Originally Posted by Mihir View Post
    Some new info about Vial of Shadows became available, and Mew was updated accordingly.
    - 25sec icd
    - 15% proc chance
    - procs can be parried, dodged, missed and can crit
    - procs scale with attackpower in a 1:1 ratio

    Reran all the trinkets with my new ilvl 410 bis profile:

    4633 H:http://db.mmo-champion.com/i/77999/v Hragon Soul first 6 bosses
    4595 H:http://db.mmo-champion.com/i/77994/w Heroic: Spine of Deathwing
    4252 N:http://db.mmo-champion.com/i/77207/v Dragon Soul first 6 bosses
    4080 N:http://db.mmo-champion.com/i/77197/w Spine of Deathwing
    3925 RF:http://db.mmo-champion.com/i/77979/v RFragon Soul first 6 bosses
    3610 RF:http://db.mmo-champion.com/i/77974/w Raid Finder: Spine of Deathwing
    3608 H:http://db.mmo-champion.com/i/77993/s Heroic: Warmaster Blackhorn
    3203 http://db.mmo-champion.com/i/77113/k Valor
    3202 H:http://db.mmo-champion.com/i/69150/m Heroic: Ragnaros
    3188 N:http://db.mmo-champion.com/i/77202/s Warmaster Blackhorn
    2827 N:http://db.mmo-champion.com/i/68994/m Ragnaros
    2827 RF:http://db.mmo-champion.com/i/77973/s Raid Finder: Warmaster Blackhorn
    2720 H:http://db.mmo-champion.com/i/69112/t Heroic: Majordomo Staghelm
    2626 R:http://db.mmo-champion.com/i/69001/a Avengers of Hyjal: Revered
    2345 D:http://db.mmo-champion.com/i/72897/a End Time - Murozond

    Glyph setup used is rip/berserk/tiger's fury, except for the on use trinkets (kiroptyric sigil/ancient petrified seed) which use bloodletting instead of tiger's fury.
    If this still is correct, could it replace the t12 trinkets in the guide, please Mihir?

    I managed to pick up LFR version of Vial of Shadows, so I guess I'm replacing my Starcatcher Compass Normal now.

    1k posts ololol
    Last edited by Zheryn; 2011-12-25 at 07:28 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainArlong View Post
    When you play a video game, you don't put any "effort" into it at all. You're pushing keys on a keyboard, you're not running a marathon or playing a sport.

  18. #3218
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    Quote Originally Posted by MasterNewbie View Post
    Just wanted to say, unless you get to 5 CPs before getting Rip or SR up, SR should go up first. It has to do with SR doing competitive DPE with Rip and not requiring the full 5 CPs for 100% effectiveness. Mew does this:

    Code:
    3.000: Savage Roar: CPs: 3
    3.000: Energy: 80 -> 55 / 100 CPs: 3 -> 0
    3.213: White Swing: Yawningstrasza CRIT Damage: 10613
    3.213: Omen of Clarity
    3.820: White Swing: Yawningstrasza HIT Damage: 5230
    4.000: Shred: Yawningstrasza HIT Damage: 25001
    4.000: Omen of Clarity Consumed
    4.000: Energy: 70 / 100 CPs: 0 -> 1
    4.426: White Swing: Yawningstrasza HIT Damage: 5301
    5.000: Ravage: Yawningstrasza CRIT Damage: 58953
    5.000: Stampede: Expiration
    5.000: Energy: 85 / 100 CPs: 1 -> 3
    5.000: Rake Tick: Yawningstrasza HIT Damage: 11781
    5.032: White Swing: Yawningstrasza GLANCE Damage: 4034
    5.639: White Swing: Yawningstrasza CRIT Damage: 11080
    5.639: Fury Swipes: Yawningstrasza CRIT Damage: 19083
    6.000: Shred: Yawningstrasza HIT Damage: 25732
    6.000: Energy: 100 -> 60 / 100 CPs: 3 -> 4
    6.245: White Swing: Yawningstrasza CRIT Damage: 11168
    6.851: White Swing: Yawningstrasza CRIT Damage: 11257
    7.000: Shred: Yawningstrasza CRIT Damage: 53421
    7.000: Proc Refresh: Wrath of Unchaining (416) Expiration: 17.00
    7.000: Energy: 75 -> 35 / 100 CPs: 4 -> 5
    7.458: White Swing: Yawningstrasza CRIT Damage: 11257
    8.000: Shred: Yawningstrasza CRIT Damage: 53834
    8.000: Energy: 50 -> 10 / 100 CPs: 5
    8.000: Rake Tick: Yawningstrasza CRIT Damage: 24269
    8.064: White Swing: Yawningstrasza CRIT Damage: 11345
    8.670: White Swing: Yawningstrasza CRIT Damage: 11345
    8.670: Fury Swipes: Yawningstrasza HIT Damage: 9485
    9.000: Tiger's Fury
    9.000: Energy: 25 -> 85 / 100 CPs: 5
    9.000: Primal Madness: Energy: 105 / 120
    9.000: Stampede
    9.000: Berserk
    9.000: Proc Trigger: Kiroptyric Sigil
    9.000: Rip: Yawningstrasza HIT
    If this is the case that's my bad. I could have sworn I read way back in this thread (around 4.1?) that the DPE of Rip was higher than that of SR and therefore it was better to get Rip up and ticking first. However my reason in posting the opening rotation for t13 was for two reasons: 1. To show that you want to make sure to use your Charge - Ravage! before popping TF because you don't want to overwrite the t13 buff. And 2. To show those that keeping asking when you should be using on-use trinkets/Synapse springs. Another note is that I forgot to include that you should also use Berserking (troll racial) the same time as you pop Berserk as the CDs line up perfectly.

    Also I was looking for some confirmation on what I read a couple posts back, has BL glyph really overtaken the TF glyph?

  19. #3219
    The Lightbringer Elunedra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightelfsb View Post
    Just my words. Try play without it for a night, and go back... Such nice helper! Not to mention on trash/bosses where you multi-dot.
    i do like the fact the debuff icon properly scles whit the duration of the rip rather then dropping off at 90% duration (on icon)

    however i did also notice quite some times while i had to target swap in DW that when i was back on my target rip just dropped off before i could refrsh so keeping it up whould have yeilded more dps.

    but i dont understand how GoBL can be better thebn GoTF as you get more Ravage! out of GoTF and GoBL loose a lot of its value below 60% health
    TREE DURID IS 4 PEE

  20. #3220
    Quote Originally Posted by Elunedra View Post
    but i dont understand how GoBL can be better thebn GoTF as you get more Ravage! out of GoTF and GoBL loose a lot of its value below 60% health
    Quote from Yawning on FluidDruid:
    Quote Originally Posted by Yawning
    Figure I'll chime in on this. The reason for the change is two fold.
    a) Kiril's ICD previously was set to 50 sec, now it's 55 sec. With a 15% proc rate, it lines up remarkably well with something that has a 30 sec cooldown now (Basically profiles with Kiril end up hitting the "procs that line up with the TF cooldown" case).
    b) I fixed a long standing (like, it's been in the code for over a year) bug with Predatory Strikes and Ravage that decreases the amount of damage Ravages beyond the first one do. This devalues 4T13 (and mid-encounter Ravages) a decent amount though the set bonus is still quite good.

    The Kiril change on it's own is sufficient to alter glyph values, but the second change didn't help things.
    Just a messenger. ^^

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