The Cat Guide - 4.3

[Mithfin]

Why all keep talking about DpE of shred > DpE of FB? It is not, if you are taking into account +25% FB crit by Rend and Tear talent. Just tested it myself, unbuffed DpE ilvl 362 geared feral (avoiding HEoC and UW procs) for shred is 360.34 and for FB is 390.23.

Average Shred hit: 10.851, 60%
Average shred crit: 22580, 35%
miss/dodge: 5%

Average FB (glyphed) hit: 8972, 40%
Average FB (glyphed) crit: 18499, 55%
miss/dodge: 5%

12 minutes testing. As you can see, I was unlucky with FB crits, it's a posteriori crit chance only 20% more then Shred's. But FB DpE is still higher.

[Thieme]

It seems u are right, should have tested it myself as well apologies for that. So as your testing points out using ferocious bit is still a DPS increase unless other DoT's/buffs runs out. The same as before the patch but the penalty of not being to Fero Bite has gotten even smaller.

[Lubiwow]

Hi,

At the moment i'm using [Quicksilver Alchemist Stone] & [Unsolvable Riddle]. I am about to buy [Unheeded Warning] but what should i replace it with? I'm thinking of swapping it with [Unsolvable Riddle].

Aslo, how good is [Quicksilver Alchemist Stone] compared to other trinkets?

Thanks,

Lubí

[Arrockk]

So after several raids and many hours on the target dummy here is what i know as fact.
1.) in 359 gear and better..reforge for haste..Weapon damage>agility>mastery>haste>crit>hit>exp
2.) Unheeded warning and fluid death are bis trinket combo before 379 heroic trinkets are available.
3.) Glyph of Berserk>Tiger's Fury
4.)Opening without Ferocious bite consistently yields higher dps. Hence..FF..Feral charge..Tiger's fury..berserk....mangle..savage roar..rake..ravage..shred if needed to get to 5 cps then rip. Continue with shred spam till energy is exhausted then refresh savage roar.

I have 1 major question..for bosses below 25% when we incorporate Ferocious Bite to keep rip refreshed is it a higher dps yield to glyph for ferocious bite, or allow our FB to hit for full damage with loss of the extra energy.
BTW using this method i consistently place in the top 25 on fights for feral druids in worldoflogs.
Any feedback is appreciated. TY

[Mithfin]

So... you loose about 70 energy for 3sec faster berserk. Sorry, I see no profit in it. Also, what about x3 mangle? You don't use 4t11?

[Xenerix]

I would say DPE of FB is a little bit higher than DPE of Shred, so Glyph of FB is still DPS loss but using FB above 25% would either lead to DPS loss because losing few sec on Savage Roar or even Rip because of (sometimes) risky using FB (it can happend few times during boss fight, I mean for 1 - 2 sec or so) is much greater DPS loss than skipping FB above 25% entirely. Hope it's at least a little bit understandable.

[Arrockk]

Mithfin I dont quite follow your reasoning behind the loss of energy. Unfortunately i dont have the 4 piece bonus available yet hopefully soon. Please go into more detail as any new information is appreciated. I follow the basics of the DPE figures for ferocious bite vs. shred however i do agree that looking at the whole picture spamming shred early in the fight = overal dps gain due to the fact that it negates a lot of downtime on rip and rake and savage roar. However im still wondering if that applies at <25% boss health because a full energy ferocious bite while it reapplies rip..it may allow rake or SR to fall off, and a glyphed FB may be a DPE loss but allow more shreds and cps which keep all "dots" rolling...please explain in greater detail if you know the correct choice as i am not quite as educated in figures as some.

[gollie]

What mithfin is asking is why you start the fight by popping Berserk and Tiger's Fury without getting rid of the energy you have first?

"4.)Opening without Ferocious bite consistently yields higher dps. Hence..FF..Feral charge..Tiger's fury..berserk....mangle..savage roar..rake..ravage..shred if needed to get to 5 cps then rip."

That's about 180 energy wasted and the fight hardly started.

[Arrockk]

The cost for feral charge is 10 energy..so FF then feral charge leaves you at 90 energy..popping tigers fury and beserk pushes your energy to 120 due to talents..when you follow with mangle..your general 35 combo point cost is then reduced by half..so not only does your mangle cost you roughly 18 energy only but its damage is also increased by 15% and savage roar is reduced from 25 to 13...if you waited to pop tigers fury and berserk you lose 10 energy to feral charge..35 to mangle-15% increased damage..and savage roar costs 25 energy..so..to me it seems 6 one way half dozen the other but i prefer the increased damage on mangle..if you think you can pull more dps out of the opening please tell im eager for new ideas...maybe popping tigers and berserk directly after mangle and before savage roar is a dps increase..i need to sit down and do math...

[Thieme]

I ussually start with Feral Charge - Fearie Fire - Mangle - Rake - Ravage - (shred if not yet at 5 CP) - Tiger's Fury + Pot + Berserk - Rip - Shred - Savage Roar - moar shred spam - normal priority list.

Note:
- Tiger's Fury does ussually energy cap me here but I got the idea it isn't much, is there a addon that can track energy capping/waisted energy?
- The Pot + Berserk I only use when the boss doesn't require a burn phase within the next 3 minutes.
- I delay Savage Roar by pretty much, but i feel this works better for me not in terms of DPS but also to enlighten "start of encounter stress" as far as that is applicable.
- Our tanks are overgearing me the few times i raid because i am social at this time so i can manage this threat wise, other people in other situations could find this a problem.

[Shornaal]

The thing is, by popping TF at 90 energy you're wasting ~30 energy from TF. EDIT: Thieme we posted at the same time, this was mainly directed at Arrockk.

I usually charge -> FFF -> mangle -> shred -> TF -> (berserk+trinket) -> rake -> shred up to 5cp -> rip -> ravage! -> 2cp savage roar (due to ravage! always critting). Not sure it's the best way but i feel more confortable doing this rather than wasting energy.

[Leinie]

What mithfin is asking is why you start the fight by popping Berserk and Tiger's Fury without getting rid of the energy you have first?

"4.)Opening without Ferocious bite consistently yields higher dps. Hence..FF..Feral charge..Tiger's fury..berserk....mangle..savage roar..rake..ravage..shred if needed to get to 5 cps then rip."

That's about 180 energy wasted and the fight hardly started.

The cost for feral charge is 10 energy..so FF then feral charge leaves you at 90 energy..popping tigers fury and beserk pushes your energy to 120 due to talents..when you follow with mangle..your general 35 combo point cost is then reduced by half..so not only does your mangle cost you roughly 18 energy only but its damage is also increased by 15% and savage roar is reduced from 25 to 13...if you waited to pop tigers fury and berserk you lose 10 energy to feral charge..35 to mangle-15% increased damage..and savage roar costs 25 energy..so..to me it seems 6 one way half dozen the other but i prefer the increased damage on mangle..if you think you can pull more dps out of the opening please tell im eager for new ideas...maybe popping tigers and berserk directly after mangle and before savage roar is a dps increase..i need to sit down and do math...

You're losing the 60 energy from KotJ from popping TF when you have ~full energy. The 20 energy loss from using TF and Berserk concurrently is negligible and negated by the 15% damage buff. Using Ravage! during Berserk is only an energy loss if you end Berserk with energy remaining. Using Savage Roar during TF is a DPS loss due to the GCD and energy spent during TF not directly benefiting from the 15% buff. Using Mangle during TF is suboptimal because of its poor DPE compared to Shred, Rip, or Rake.

Note: The following is all assuming no 4pc T11 and using Unheeded Warning.

My guess is

FF/FC > Mangle > Rake > SR > TF > Berserk or Shred once then Berserk* > Shred* > Ravage! > Shred > Rip > Shred spam

*to avoid capping energy

might be closer to optimal, but it only leaves 5 GCDs to get Rip in on TF's 6 second duration. Any unlucky misses, dodges, or lack of crits would cripple this opening. Savage Roar so early is primarily to bleed off excess energy, but white damage benefiting from SR, TF, and Unheeded Warning could be a DPS increase. Rake does not benefit from TF because we are trying to maximize Unheeded Warning's proc.

Alternatively, to ensure 5 CPs for Rip during TF, Savage Roar could be delayed until after Tiger's Fury ends.

[Jon]

I ussually start with Feral Charge - Fearie Fire - Mangle - Rake - Ravage - (shred if not yet at 5 CP) - Tiger's Fury + Pot + Berserk - Rip - Shred - Savage Roar - moar shred spam - normal priority list.

You should use the potion before combat starts, so you can use another later on.

[Thieme]

You should use the potion before combat starts, so you can use another later on.

Depends on fight but yeah ur right.

[Arrockk]

Leinie I think you might be correct. The only fault i see is casting rake before tigers fury as the extra 15% damage would be a large buff to rake. So im thinking FF to Feral Charge..Mangle..Savage roar which equals 70 energy ..then popping tigers fury and beserk plus your haste should get you to about 100 and change energy following with rake ..shread to 5 cps and rip..etc..I think this may make the best use of the 15% damage buff and energy ..ill play on the practice dummy today and see what i can find.

[gollie]

Nothing says you can't reapply the Rake while TF is up. It is up for 6 seconds so you have plenty of time to refresh it.

[Mihir]

It's perfectly fine if you get 2 ticks of un-TFed rake then clip it. (thats my usual opening)

something like charge+ff - mangle - rake - mangle - tf - rip - ravage! - berserk - SR - mangle - rake - shredspam

exact order can vary abit depending on crits

it's quite hectic tho, esp if the boss is being moved to the tankspot as well, so often something messes up a bit :P
just practice it a ton and it'll become 2nd nature eventually

[Arctagon]

something like charge+ff - mangle - rake - mangle - tf - rip - ravage! - berserk - SR - mangle - rake - shredspam

I assume you've got 4 piece T11?

Does anyone know the damage reduction from armour of a raid boss? I suspect it is approximately 29%, but I have absolutely nothing to back that up and neither can I find anything about it anywhere.

[Leinie]

Leinie I think you might be correct. The only fault i see is casting rake before tigers fury as the extra 15% damage would be a large buff to rake. So im thinking FF to Feral Charge..Mangle..Savage roar which equals 70 energy ..then popping tigers fury and beserk plus your haste should get you to about 100 and change energy following with rake ..shread to 5 cps and rip..etc..I think this may make the best use of the 15% damage buff and energy ..ill play on the practice dummy today and see what i can find.

Nothing says you can't reapply the Rake while TF is up. It is up for 6 seconds so you have plenty of time to refresh it.

When I was typing the post originally I had a 2nd Rake after TF to clip during the Berserk, but then took it out before posting because I wasn't sure if using the GCD during Unheeded Warning would a DPS increase or neutral. After doing a little napkin math I believe that fitting the extra Rake in there would be a DPS increase, so:

FF/FC > Mangle > Rake > SR > TF > Berserk or Shred once then Berserk* > Rake > Ravage! > Shred > Rip > Shred spam

*to avoid capping energy

Again, assuming no 4pT11 and Unheeded Warning.

@Mihir: Are you able to consistently get that last Rake in with Tiger's Fury still up? Looks like you'd be casting it just as TF falls off. Wouldn't it be better to delay SR another couple of GCDs to better ensure you got that Rake up under 3x SotP and TF? I don't have 4pT11 so I have yet to try to tackle that opener.

[Shaazaam]

I prefer prepot>FFF+Charge>Mangle>Shred>Shred>TF+Zerk>Rake>Ravage>SR then do normal rotation.

Edit: A little more reason why. It's a little crit/OoC dependant so you may need to hit TF/Zerk a little early, but with good RNG I've been able to push past 41k burst, but typically its around 30-36k burst.