Fireball vs Frostfire bolt.

[allrightythen]

So you have proof, but don't want to post it because I'm asking for proof? Right, that would work great in any trial.

Judge: Defense, please show your evidence.
Defense: Why? Because you're too lazy to go find my evidence for me? Pfft, the only reason I'm here is to get paid, I don't need no evidence for that.

first im not on trial, second, i dont have proof, my proof is my ingame experience in testing both aspects, you want pictures these i do not have so i say go test it, instead you sit here in the forum and bitch about how you dont have proof instead of taking the time to go into game and testing it yourself.

so like i said, stop being lazy and go test it. im done with you in this thread

[Raynfal]

For those of you advocating Fireball hitting harder than Frostfire Bolt instead of about the same (I'm not talking DPS, just DPCT), I have yet to see you mention using FFB Prime Glyph when testing. The FFB Prime Glyph adds 15% damage to it, which brings it's damage exactly up to that of Fireball. The ONLY difference between using FFB + its glyph or FB + its glyph is, as Swizzle said, the DoT damage or the extra crit.

As for which one to roll with, numbers need to be crunched between the 9% damage DoT + DoT Ignites + Fire Mastery + occasional Combustion VS 5% FB crit + extra FB Ignites + more Hot Streaks. Something like that.

The actual brute force behind Fireball and the glyphed Frostfire Bolt is the same.

EDIT: And looking at Cirkeline's numbers, that's about right. 11k unglyphed FFB * 1.15 glyph = 12.7k, which rounds to 13k (obviously 300 difference when rounding, but the original 11k and 13k numbers are rounded too, so there's room for error)

[allrightythen]

For those of you advocating Fireball hitting harder than Frostfire Bolt instead of about the same (I'm not talking DPS, just DPCT), I have yet to see you mention using FFB Prime Glyph when testing. The FFB Prime Glyph adds 15% damage to it, which brings it's damage exactly up to that of Fireball. The ONLY difference between using FFB + its glyph or FB + its glyph is, as Swizzle said, the DoT damage or the extra crit.

As for which one to roll with, numbers need to be crunched between the 9% damage DoT + DoT Ignites + Fire Mastery + occasional Combustion VS 5% FB crit + extra FB Ignites + more Hot Streaks. Something like that.

The actual brute force behind Fireball and the glyphed Frostfire Bolt is the same.

I figured it was implied we were using FFB glyph, anyone would be dumb to try to compare it without (plus i stated how teh damage difference on the tooltip was so small, without the FFB its about 600ish difference, thats not small)

the actual brute force behind fireball and frostfire is not in fact the same, least not every single time i tested it, FFB was consistantly lower, same spec, hell i even had both FB and FFB glyphs on just so i didnt have to go about changing them.

at best FFB will give a bit more damage on aoe, but FB will proc hotstreak more.

[Magnum]

Fireball and Frostfire bolt should be doing equivilant damage, the thing is Frostfire bolts damage relies more heavily on mastery rating because of the stacking dot then Fireball.

[allrightythen]

Fireball and Frostfire bolt should be doing equivilant damage, the thing is Frostfire bolts damage relies more heavily on mastery rating because of the stacking dot then Fireball.

its more of a question of whats best, which needs number crunching, and could change at 85, and could even depend on tiers of gear in raiding as we progress.

but for right now, unless that piddly (it really does seem piddly) DoT outweighs 5% more crit, and more hotstreaks that the 5% more crit on FB brings..on single target (or at least 51% of meaningful encounters from a min/max standpoint) then it wont be better.

but that is neither here nor there, i wasnt disputing which results in more dps (cuz i honestly dont know for sure) i was disputing which hits harder.

[Thorgrimm]

Fireball:


FFB:

Grats you posted tooltips. But yet you want someone else to run logs for you? How bout you get some logs. Then someone else gets logs and then we compare em.

[Pasture]

So at the moment Fireball and Frostfire Bolt amount to the same dps as a pure nuke but:

- Fireball gets an extra 5% crit which means more crit damage generally, which means more ignites and more hot streaks.
- Frostfire Bolt gets a stacking dot, which benefits from mastery.

But why discuss which is better. If they both put out the same damage, Frostfire to 3 stacks for the dot, spam fireball for the extra crit and just fill with frostfire when necessary to maintain the stack. There's not a lot to lose doing this, particularly since we can roll with all 5 glyphs.

It might potentially be worth still doing at 85. The 3% damage to Living Bomb glyph is pretty poor and the Pyroblast glyph won't see much use at low gear levels. At 85 (and with the prime glyphs fixed) it will probably be better to use Fireball, Molten Armour and Frostfire and maintain the frostfire dot.

[Swizzle]

Grats you posted tooltips. But yet you want someone else to run logs for you? How bout you get some logs. Then someone else gets logs and then we compare em.

Tooltips now reflect your spellpower, spec, and talents. So far, I've provided the most proof of his claims since I said they have the same coefficient (which they do), they have the same crit damage modifier (which they do), they deal identical damage (which they do), with the only difference between the spells coming from theoretical numbers of 5% increased crit chance or a DoT.

Everyone claiming otherwise has only SAID I do blah blah blah, so so so, x x x without ANY evidence. Before I take anyone seriously when making a claim, I'd like them to back it up. So far, no one has done that. The burden of proof lies on them because they are claiming something contradictory to reality, not on me.

[Aeriel]

So at the moment Fireball and Frostfire Bolt amount to the same dps as a pure nuke but:

- Fireball gets an extra 5% crit which means more crit damage generally, which means more ignites and more hot streaks.
- Frostfire Bolt gets a stacking dot, which benefits from mastery.

But why discuss which is better. If they both put out the same damage, Frostfire to 3 stacks for the dot, spam fireball for the extra crit and just fill with frostfire when necessary to maintain the stack. There's not a lot to lose doing this, particularly since we can roll with all 5 glyphs.

It might potentially be worth still doing at 85. The 3% damage to Living Bomb glyph is pretty poor and the Pyroblast glyph won't see much use at low gear levels. At 85 (and with the prime glyphs fixed) it will probably be better to use Fireball, Molten Armour and Frostfire and maintain the frostfire dot.

Kalgan's comment on the issue was that Frostfire should pull ahead slightly when glyphs are taken into account (Mastery). They don't want players going back and forth between FFB and FB. Realistically it sounds like FFB is a little undertuned at base stats, and might need to have its numbers bumped a little (or the glyph buffed slightly) so that it pulls away. The benefit to running with the FB glyph would then be a more "proc-based" play for those who prefer it.
In short, FFB with glyph should be slightly higher consistent damage, while FB should be more spiky damage.

[allrightythen]

i hate you swizzle, not because of yoru stance, but because you managed to get me back in this thread.

reason

"they deal identical damage (which they do)"

so...you say they do similar damage cuz you saw it? or because from what you know mechanics wise that they should?

so you "saying" something is > everyone else "saying" something?

you have provided no evidence that isnt already known to us. however, doesnt change the fact that when i cast them, FB wins in direct damage per hit. Shoudl they do the same? from everything we know mechanically yes, however, they do not.

i do not know why, for all i know there is some miniscule bug causing the discrepency.

---------- Post added 2010-10-16 at 09:50 PM ----------

Kalgan's comment on the issue was that Frostfire should pull ahead slightly when glyphs are taken into account (Mastery). They don't want players going back and forth between FFB and FB. Realistically it sounds like FFB is a little undertuned at base stats, and might need to have its numbers bumped a little (or the glyph buffed slightly) so that it pulls away. The benefit to running with the FB glyph would then be a more "proc-based" play for those who prefer it.
In short, FFB with glyph should be slightly higher consistent damage, while FB should be more spiky damage.

I would also like to see this comment, not that i disbelieve you, i just havent seen it.

[Aeriel]

I would also like to see this comment, not that i disbelieve you, i just havent seen it.

Here you go.
http://blue.mmo-champion.com/t/26859...st-fire-mages/

Edit: I forgot that he qualified with "emphasis on Mastery". The quote was from almost a month ago.

[allrightythen]

Here you go.
http://blue.mmo-champion.com/t/26859...st-fire-mages/

Edit: I forgot that he qualified with "emphasis on Mastery". The quote was from almost a month ago.

sweet, ty for the link. interesting read however. though either way im sure at 85 we will find out which one is actually better at which times and in what gear.

[Valanna]

http://img88.imageshack.us/i/wowscrn...710001247.jpg/

http://img823.imageshack.us/i/wowscr...710001251.jpg/

Surprise! Swizzle is right.

Testing was made with no trinkets and without the ICC rep ring for 0 procs.

[Wtskriss]

from my theorycrafting i came up with that

as a fire mage you can go 2 ways with your gear atm,

17% hit > 30% haste > crit stack > ignore mastery (using fireball and imp hotstreak) this is the better option for the more geared people
17% hit > 30% haste > stack mastery > drop crit as low as u can (using FFB and hotstreak) this is better if your undergeared, lower ur crit down as low as u can and stack mastery instead

things to note:

the point where improved hot streak is better then hotstreak is 34% crit
you stack 1k haste so that you have 35% haste in a raid, that is the point where your living bomb gets an extra tick
the lower ur crit the more hotstreak procs so drop as much as u can if you go option 2
the higher ur crit the more improved hotstreak procs so stack it as much as you can



the one thing i couldnt figure out was when to cap your crit with option 2 and get mastery, as far as i can see you dont want to cap it at all

[allrightythen]

http://img88.imageshack.us/i/wowscrn...710001247.jpg/

http://img823.imageshack.us/i/wowscr...710001251.jpg/

Surprise! Swizzle is right.

Testing was made with no trinkets and without the ICC rep ring for 0 procs.

Sweet! all that means is i have to figure out why im doing more damage with fireball then (per hit)

[_Fire_]

Why does everyone fight Swizzle </3

[Swizzle]

Why does everyone fight Swizzle </3

They're masochists? New to the forums? Were born with an extra Y chromosome? If only scientists could find out why people want to argue with me, then the world would be much better off because I would be able to single handedly wipe out idiocy.

[Shwaam]

Why does everyone fight Swizzle </3

Sure, Swizzle is good, but he has quite an attitude.


On topic, I'd say it depends on the gear you currently have. After the patch I've experienced really low critchance, despite having 40% crit with molten armor and AI (giving 50+% raidbuffed/bossdebuffed). Despite that I've experienced up to 10-20 seconds without any crits, which never happened before. But after seeing the test with 200 fbs/ffbs done, I'm reconsidering to change my fireball glyph for FFB. The DoT scales with mastery, haste and crit. It increases combustions damage and can be spread with the Impact talent.

[allrightythen]

I think its a question of gear. myself i do not think my gear is good enough to warrant switching to FFB (my self buffed crit is 38%, so 43% with fireball). Also I think mastery is for later in cata, it doesnt seem to be that great right now at 80 for fire, though that could also be gear.

oh, and i double checked, still hitting/critting harder with FB consistantly! bleh

[Marraphy]

I just read that Frostfire Bolt requires more Mastery because it increases the damage of the stacking DoT~

If FB is doing more damage then try stacking more mastery with FFB : D