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  1. #21
    The Patient utopianh's Avatar
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    Agility jewelry is generally significantly better than str, except when there's bonus armor involved. That actually makes the situation more dependent on the fight mechanics and your stat balance.
    God is a comedian playing to an audience that is afraid to laugh. ~ Voltaire

  2. #22
    my only problem with macroing maul to all the tanking abilities like u said is that after patch having major issue building and keeping a decent amount of rage. think mainly cause the increased the rage amount maul needs to be used.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by coocoo View Post
    Strength
    1 Str = 2.1624 AP

    Dodge Rating
    1 Dodge Rating = 0.0220982% Dodge

    Agility
    1 Agi = 2.1624 AP
    1 Agi = 0.0129744% Crit
    1 Agi = 0.0225641% Dodge

    I fail to see how you can claim Agility gives "little avoidance" when it clearly gives more dodge than dodge rating, gives crit to power our Savage Defense, and gives AP to boost the SD itself.
    At the same time those items give same amount of stamina.
    I'll take that over the Strength tanking items, and in fact already replaced them all, gaining a noticeable amount of crit, reforged haste where possible & gained juicy mastery rating = win.
    The data been changes for dodge.

    I will check it out when I get home.

    Also it is better to read how many Dodge rating to make one Dodge %. Seeing smaller number making people panic more than large number.

    0.0225641% and 0.0220982% are really close to each other.

    So, Let look at a different number, AGI give three stats however the Bonus stats are Hit/Crit/Exp/Haste/Mastery, it is all threat.

    STR only give Attack Power however Tanking item that is share between the tanking classes give armor (if possible)/dodge/Mastery/Exp/Haste/Hit. I see more stats dealing with improving your Tanking skills.

    Hit rating need for 8% been change to 247, so we need to check every stats and find out what change.

    AGI non-leather armor items just threat in Cata.

    I do support gemming Agility and not dodge. If the another yellow gem choice is Mastery rating then the yellow socket would be pure Mastery or Mastery/Stamina or Mastery/Hit. You get more out of Agility enchantment/gem than dodge enchantment/gem.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Auroro View Post
    Strength tanking items give avoidance, armor and dodge.

    Agility pieces only give threat and little avoidance, dodge.
    As of now the only 2 pieces of strength jewelry we would have used for bonus armor (Bile-Encrusted Medallion and Devium's Eternally Cold Ring) give 216 armor which is pointless. You get 73 dodge rating from Bile-Encrusted Medallion (277) compared to 102 agility on Sindragosa's Cruel Claw (277). 73 dodge rating at 80 is 1.61% dodge; the agility on Sindragosa's Cruel Claw gives 2.30% dodge not to mention 1.32% crit and over 200 ap. IMO, right now the best two druid tanking rings are probably Band of the Bone Colossus and Seal of Many Mouths.

    Ok, that is good to know. Since Agility no longer gives armor, why would you not take tanking item for avoidance.
    Agility > dodge rating.

    Agains Blizzard does not want us to be mana drain tank. Having too much stamina and not enough avoidance can hurt us.
    And having too much avoidance will kill our threat. We are now meant to have vengeance up; with the ridiculous amounts of avoidance all tanks have right now getting vengeance to stack is near impossible on some fights. Why do you think tanks have such large health pools on the beta and such low avoidance?

    We still gain dodge from dodge rating. Making the tanking items still useful. I have a feeling that Bear tank are going to fighting out the use of Tanking Items VS Agility Items, making Threat VS Avoidance. The Epic Tanking Relic give Mastery, Dodge, Stamina, and Str.

    For example: Both Relic give same amount of Agi/Str (107), Stamina (161), same item ivi (359), and one socket.

    Relic of Golganneth: Critical Strike rating by 72 and Haste Rating by 72 (44 when reforge to 28 Mastery Rating)

    Relic of Khaz'goroth: Dodge Rating by 72 (44 when reforge to 28 Hit/Crit/Exp Rating) and Mastery Rating by 72
    If you're so worried about dodge rating why would you reforge it to something else? It makes no sense.

    Which one would you choose?
    The agility one obviously. Yes, you will reforge the haste into mastery. In case you're wondering at 85 the strength relic's dodge rating will give you 0.41% dodge while the agility relic would give you 0.44% dodge and would be affected by kings/motw. I honestly doubt you will find any jewelry, other than trinkets, with bonus armor on it when Cataclysm hits.

    I get more Mastery Rating from a Tanking Relic compare to a Agility Relic.
    Mastery is good but it's not the only stat there is.

    Taking Stampede give 30% haste

    Brutal Impact give Bash a cooldown of 50 second, Skull Bash would have 10 sec cooldown, it stop that school being use for 5 sec, and force the mana cost of that school to increase by 30%. I smelling a nerf coming soon since Skull Bash is too good be true.
    Why would they nerf it? Every tank now has an interrupt with a 10 second CD plus they changed bear charge and bash to stun instead of interrupt so they no longer affect casting mobs that aren't stun able (ie. bosses). 30% haste for 10 seconds is not worth giving up a reliable interrupt; there is no reason you can possibly come up with that will change my mind or the mind of any good tank.

    Well, you could do http://www.wowhead.com/talent#zZfMGboubzrckMcu or http://www.wowhead.com/talent#zZfMGbRu0zrckMcu

    one point in Taking Stampede or Brutal Impact or KoTJ, it is your choice. Haste just give you more threat at the beginning of the fight. We still have DPS not waiting for us to get the threat under control.
    One point in Brutal Impact would make Skull Bash a 35 second CD and give you 15% haste after you feral charged. How often do you feral charge a boss while you're tanking? The only one that even remotely comes to mind right now is Valinar and after the first minute threat is no longer an issue.

    I never drop 4T10 for any of those fight. At the same time, I never talent KoTJ.
    To each his own.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Cheezee View Post
    As of now the only 2 pieces of strength jewelry we would have used for bonus armor (Bile-Encrusted Medallion and Devium's Eternally Cold Ring) give 216 armor which is pointless. You get 73 dodge rating from Bile-Encrusted Medallion (277) compared to 102 agility on Sindragosa's Cruel Claw (277). 73 dodge rating at 80 is 1.61% dodge; the agility on Sindragosa's Cruel Claw gives 2.30% dodge not to mention 1.32% crit and over 200 ap. IMO, right now the best two druid tanking rings are probably Band of the Bone Colossus and Seal of Many Mouths.
    Ok you do know that both Agility and Strength are the same amount, so AP does not matter any more.

    The hidden Stats does matter. I counted the socket bonus.

    Bile-Encrusted Medallion: 216 Armor Rating (709.121952 Armor), 73 Dodge Rating (1.61%+0.225641%(agi) dodge), 167 Stamina, 0.129744%(agi) Critical Strike

    Sindragosa's Cruel Claw: 60 Haste Rating (1.83% Haste) , 68 Critical Strike Rating (1.48%+1.38%(agi) Critical Strike), 2.39% Dodge(agi), 171 Stamina

    Total of four different stats each items.

    What I see is one is Threat base while the other is Survival base. Like you said "To each his own."

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheezee View Post
    Agility > dodge rating.
    That why I said you can gem and enchant your gears with Agility. At the same time, if the new yellow gem is mastery then mastery/stamina will work for Yellow Socket.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheezee View Post
    And having too much avoidance will kill our threat. We are now meant to have vengeance up; with the ridiculous amounts of avoidance all tanks have right now getting vengeance to stack is near impossible on some fights. Why do you think tanks have such large health pools on the beta and such low avoidance?
    That why I said balance all three core ability. The balance is these things: have enough avoidance to live longer without heals, enough health to not get one shot, and enough threat to protect your party or raider. That why we reforge avoidance stats to up the chance to gain more vengeance.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheezee View Post
    If you're so worried about dodge rating why would you reforge it to something else? It makes no sense.
    If I feel like I need more threat then I just change dodge.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheezee View Post
    The agility one obviously. Yes, you will reforge the haste into mastery. In case you're wondering at 85 the strength relic's dodge rating will give you 0.41% dodge while the agility relic would give you 0.44% dodge and would be affected by kings/motw. I honestly doubt you will find any jewelry, other than trinkets, with bonus armor on it when Cataclysm hits.
    Tanking item will be use for all four tanking classes. Blizzard would be not happy if only three out of four are using those.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheezee View Post
    Why would they nerf it? Every tank now has an interrupt with a 10 second CD plus they changed bear charge and bash to stun instead of interrupt so they no longer affect casting mobs that aren't stun able (ie. bosses). 30% haste for 10 seconds is not worth giving up a reliable interrupt; there is no reason you can possibly come up with that will change my mind or the mind of any good tank.
    If you want then 15% haste with reliable interrupt.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheezee View Post
    One point in Brutal Impact would make Skull Bash a 35 second CD and give you 15% haste after you feral charged. How often do you feral charge a boss while you're tanking? The only one that even remotely comes to mind right now is Valinar and after the first minute threat is no longer an issue.
    I would said at the beginning of the fight or tank swap. 15% haste sound better than taking 10% more damage for dealing 5% more damage.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Auroro View Post
    The hidden Stats does matter. I counted the socket bonus.
    Bears generally don't gem for them anyway.

    Bile-Encrusted Medallion: 216 Armor Rating (709.121952 Armor), 73 Dodge Rating (1.61%+0.225641%(agi) dodge), 167 Stamina, 0.129744%(agi) Critical Strike
    How are you getting 709 armor? Bonus armor is not affected by multipliers.

    Sindragosa's Cruel Claw: 60 Haste Rating (1.83% Haste) , 68 Critical Strike Rating (1.48%+1.38%(agi) Critical Strike), 2.39% Dodge(agi), 171 Stamina

    Total of four different stats each items.

    What I see is one is Threat base while the other is Survival base. Like you said "To each his own."
    Call it what you will, the agility necklace will still keep you alive longer.

    That why I said balance all three core ability. The balance is these things: have enough avoidance to live longer without heals, enough health to not get one shot, and enough threat to protect your party or raider. That why we reforge avoidance stats to up the chance to gain more vengeance.


    If I feel like I need more threat then I just change dodge.
    You totally missed my point there. Right now tank avoidance is ridiculously high because gear is way beyond what the designers originally intended. This is why bosses in ToGC hit like buses. This is why Chill of the Grave was implemented. Once we hit 85 we will not have such high avoidance. Blizz has already stated that gear will not be allowed to get so out of hand again. At that point you will not be reforging your avoidance stats into mastery; you will be reforging haste into mastery. You will not take strength tanking items because the avoidance on said items will not scale with raid buffs. The only reason you would take them would be if they had enough bonus armor to more than offset the benefits of the agility counterpart and so far in beta no bonus armor jewelry has been found. Maybe it hasn't been data-mined yet, I don't know, but I'd place very good odds on them not making anymore.

    Tanking item will be use for all four tanking classes. Blizzard would be not happy if only three out of four are using those.
    Strength tanking items will be more useful to the plate classes because they can all turn a percentage of their strength into parry. They won't be completely worthless to a druid but they will be sub-optimal.

    If you want then 15% haste with reliable interrupt.
    I fail to understand how this simple idea seems to escape your grasp. A temporary haste buff for a bear is pointless. It gives you an extra auto attack or two while it's active. It does not affect our GCD or our bleeds and no longer affects maul at all. Further, using talent points to obtain said haste buff at the expense of a 10 second interrupt is absurd.

    I would said at the beginning of the fight or tank swap. 15% haste sound better than taking 10% more damage for dealing 5% more damage.
    At 80 you essentially have 2 points to spend however you want but at 85 you will not have said points to spend. Stampede will not be worth taking in its current iteration. If you're worried about the threat generated by 2-3 extra auto attacks over 10 seconds then you should probably give up tanking all together.

  7. #27
    Cheezee, I love you.

  8. #28
    Herald of the Titans arel00's Avatar
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    Honestly, what is this?
    I remember you asking me about rewriting the Bear guide Auroro, since as I said, I'm not gonna take it up for Cataclysm. But I also remember you said I was gonna SEE your version, before you went and posted it.
    I also stated very clearly to check with Infernix17, since he was doing a good job that he started on his own initiative, and that you should consider working together.

    Keyword: together.

    If this is how you do that, without cooperation, and without what I asked you to, since you DID originally came to me asking to continue the Bear guide that I kept up (tho not alone, ofc) for the whole WotLK, well...

    I do NOT give you permission to do it. That was MY work, as well as others', and was never, EVER, at any single point, done without other people's agreement. What you're doing now is stealing info from someone who did a good job, and breaking your own promises with me in regards to the 3.x guide.
    Sorry, I'm not backing you on this. You can forget about crediting me etc, this is ridiculous.
    Last edited by arel00; 2010-10-18 at 10:16 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Qieth
    I don't do math, blind assumptions work so much better for me.

  9. #29
    /clap

    This thread has just turned into a b*tch fest on epic proportions. For the sake of the community, can you two please come to some arrangement and create a new thread which you both worked/will work on?

    Whatever happens, can you please do a proof read before you finalise the copy, the wording and spelling through-out is terrible - although i do realise that English is not your mother tongue, it would be much appreciated for everyone else

  10. #30
    For ze fahzer tongue!

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Richmond View Post
    /clap

    This thread has just turned into a b*tch fest on epic proportions. For the sake of the community, can you two please come to some arrangement and create a new thread which you both worked/will work on?

    Whatever happens, can you please do a proof read before you finalise the copy, the wording and spelling through-out is terrible - although i do realise that English is not your mother tongue, it would be much appreciated for everyone else
    The only reason why I am not doing anything, is because he blatantly stole all of my hard work and just thought adding my name to the thank you list would be okay.
    He then lied about this whole situation and now he, somehow, thinks that he deserves all the credit.

    I have told him 3 times that if he wants something to be on the guide that appeals to EVERYONE, that I would gladly add it onto my guide. Most of the information he sends me is incorrect or horribly written and I am having trouble coming to a general agreement.

    I've done my part, I changed my guide to appeal to everyone and I told him if he wants something on the guide that I will put it on if it makes sense and is logical.

    ---------- Post added 2010-10-18 at 12:19 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by arel00 View Post
    Honestly, what is this?
    I remember you asking me about rewriting the Bear guide Auroro, since as I said, I'm not gonna take it up for Cataclysm. But I also remember you said I was gonna SEE your version, before you went and posted it.
    I also stated very clearly to check with Infernix17, since he was doing a good job that he started on his own initiative, and that you should consider working together.

    Keyword: together.

    If this is how you do that, without cooperation, and without what I asked you to, since you DID originally came to me asking to continue the Bear guide that I kept up (tho not alone, ofc) for the whole WotLK, well...

    I do NOT give you permission to do it. That was MY work, as well as others', and was never, EVER, at any single point, done without other people's agreement. What you're doing now is stealing info from someone who did a good job, and breaking your own promises with me in regards to the 3.x guide.
    Sorry, I'm not backing you on this. You can forget about crediting me etc, this is ridiculous.
    Thank you arel00, sorry you are even involved with this and I wish this could of been worked out. It's all unnecessary.

    Hopefully something will be worked out soon.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Infernix17 View Post
    The only reason why I am not doing anything, is because he blatantly stole all of my hard work and just thought adding my name to the thank you list would be okay.
    He then lied about this whole situation and now he, somehow, thinks that he deserves all the credit.

    I have told him 3 times that if he wants something to be on the guide that appeals to EVERYONE, that I would gladly add it onto my guide. Most of the information he sends me is incorrect or horribly written and I am having trouble coming to a general agreement.

    I've done my part, I changed my guide to appeal to everyone and I told him if he wants something on the guide that I will put it on if it makes sense and is logical.
    I think you need to cool down with the idea of me stealing your credit. 3 times… you only ask two time, I ask for a way to sent this whole guide to you, you never gave me that. The guide’s word count is too big to sent in private message. I can count the messages we have between us and it is two in the inbox where I sent 5 messages to you. Both of your messages seem negative toward my writing skills and myself. Infernix17, you might want learn more about my writing skills and myself. I am deaf, and it does affect my <censor> writing skills.

    I did tell him to merge to create a new guide with both of our information, this mean both guide are destroy. He can do the writing part himself. If you compare the guide, I gave more information+his information, but bad writing skills. In his, good writing skills but not enough information.

    When I told him that guide had to be impartial with every debate that come up. This mean both side of the EH vs ToL need to be heard, same with Agility vs Tanking Gears. He went and said that every bear guild that he saw does not have EH vs ToL. Well, I found EH vs ToL section in arel00's guide.

    Here is the post:

    Quote Originally Posted by arel00
    Since the original time this guide was written, the stat priorities have been changing around a lot.

    It is advisable, gemming-wise, to mix up stamina and agility until you hit the last tier of content, where usually having a health buffer by stacking stamina is of good help, especially when progressing.

    By no means this is meant to support blind stamina stacking regardless of the situation, or blind agility stacking either.

    The point is: you need to keep an eye on your avoidance, even when buffering your health. If your gear allows you to have enough avoidance per-se, then it's not a problem. If it doesn't, you may need to support it via gems and enchants. Same thing around for health when stacking avoidance.
    That post scream EH vs ToL.

    If you are going to go with the Agility idea then give the example other then saying Agility is better. Give more information why Agility gears are better like compare two gears. When you are done, you should said, "By no means this is meant to support all Agility gears are better than Tanking Gears. There are situation where Tanking Gears are better than Agility gears."

    Infernix17 just wants the recognition for creating a Cata Guide for Bear Tanking. I am giving him that recognition.

    Alski, lock this guide since you choose Infernix17 for his writing skill, I am just going to keep an eye on his guide and hoping he does a good enough job.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Auroro View Post
    I think you need to cool down with the idea of me stealing your credit. 3 times… you only ask two time, I ask for a way to sent this whole guide to you, you never gave me that. The guide’s word count is too big to sent in private message. I can count the messages we have between us and it is two in the inbox where I sent 5 messages to you. Both of your messages seem negative toward my writing skills and myself. Infernix17, you might want learn more about my writing skills and myself. I am deaf, and it does affect my <censor> writing skills.

    I did tell him to merge to create a new guide with both of our information, this mean both guide are destroy. He can do the writing part himself. If you compare the guide, I gave more information+his information, but bad writing skills. In his, good writing skills but not enough information.

    When I told him that guide had to be impartial with every debate that come up. This mean both side of the EH vs ToL need to be heard, same with Agility vs Tanking Gears. He went and said that every bear guild that he saw does not have EH vs ToL. Well, I found EH vs ToL section in arel00's guide.

    Here is the post:



    That post scream EH vs ToL.

    If you are going to go with the Agility idea then give the example other then saying Agility is better. Give more information why Agility gears are better like compare two gears. When you are done, you should said, "By no means this is meant to support all Agility gears are better than Tanking Gears. There are situation where Tanking Gears are better than Agility gears."

    Infernix17 just wants the recognition for creating a Cata Guide for Bear Tanking. I am giving him that recognition.

    Alski, lock this guide since you choose Infernix17 for his writing skill, I am just going to keep an eye on his guide and hoping he does a good enough job.
    I am doing a good enough job. I've added everything necessary in your guide into mine. I'm also waiting to put up a EH vs. ToL until cataclysm, because it is so useless to talk about it at this point. We don't know what is going to be better in Cataclysm, so I will have a section for EH vs. ToL later.

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