Tank dmg now competitive with dps

[Zantumall]

How about if..

Good Tanks did 20k DPS and 20k TPS
Good DPS did 19k DPS and 19k TPS

Then what's the point of even speccing dps? Raids won't bring you, because stuff will die faster if everyone does more damage and won't die if they pull aggro. That model would make every class besides paladins, warriors, DKs, and druids instantly obsolete.

[Deleted]

Vengance will be OP in pvp, it already is, ull see.

[Herecius]

If he was doing 20k DPS, it'd be 60k TPS. It's not vengeance that's bugged, it's threat multipliers. Besides, it's completely DPS that are undertuned while tanks over overtuned. DPS need to be hitting 20k, while tanks should be hitting 15k or so. That would be a very fair assumption and much more balanced.

Tanks should be competitive with DPS when tanking. You can't use "If you wanted to DPS, you should roll one", because if we all did that, everyone would be crying their poor little hearts out claiming "tanks being able to DPS while tanking was fine, just give us our tanks back". Tanks shouldn't be competitive while not tanking, but they should be while tanking. Threat shouldn't be so easy (anyone saying it's not since 4.0 is doing something very wrong or is experiencing a bug a majority haven't), but it shouldn't be frustrating or mind numbingly boring to maintain.

You said it a lot better than I did. Competitive DPS is cool, there's nothing wrong with that. But you can pretty easily see that in the vid, the tank is not only a mile and a half ahead in threat, he's also beating the crap out of the DPS too. 15k tank DPS compared to 20k DPS-DPS would be perfect. Oh and yeah, 60k TPS, because in that video, the tank really -was- doing 20k DPS for most of the fight. :P

[Deleted]

Shortage of tanks?

Make tanking easier/fun.

Problem solved.

Shortage of DPS?

Make tanks do equal damage to DPS.

Problem...

[Azutael]

I think it's safe to say that it will be lowered, while buffing the threat to compensate. Keeping tanks the same, just doing less dmg than the acctual dps.

[SoulForge]

How about this is based around level 85 and subject to change with cata. Tanks may not scale as well upward. We don't know yet.

[Foibles]

As a hunter, I'm supposed to use Feign Death and misdirect to help myself manage threat, and by extension, help the tank keep threat above my own. Why should I even bother putting these two abilities on my bars, if a tank can just do eleventy bajillion TPS?

And those of us without MD and FD?

OT: Tanks should be able to do ~65% of dps spec's max dps. This way, if both are playing properly, threat presence modifiers should keep the tanks just far enough ahead to focus on more than just threat while still allowing the dps without threat drops to go all out.

[Tuvok]

Well, the health gaps between tanks and the rest was bridged a fair bit, why not do the same with dps?

[lockos]

You just showed your stupidity. Go read how the Vengeance mechanic works and think it through before posting stupid crap like this.

go and take some lessons of good behavior. i made a mistake by ignoring the fact that the tank needs to take dmg for the vengeance buff to stuck. i made a mistake that doesn't make me stupidcalling me stupid because of this tells more for you than me.

i will not go into a personal conflict here but if you are pissed of because you can see that if vengeance is unbalanced both at pve and pvp ppl will complain about it and it will be nerfed then i suggest that you take a chill pill.

as far as i can tell if smt is unbalanced the nerf stick hits really fast the same will happen with vengeance if needed

now the way i see it:

a tank must first do the best he can to survive a fight and secondly do the best he can to generate as much threat as possible to help the dps do their max dps output.

a dps must keep him self alive and do the max dps he can without overaggro the tank. yes dps should also pay attention to their threat.

and a healer must keep him self alive and then keep alive the tank(s) or the raid members.

in my opinion a dps list with lets say 1st place rogue, 2nd place hunter, 3rd place main tank it is really wrong for me.

tanks have thread modifiers. that is what helps a tank to do threat while using his skills not the dps he is doing.

ppl saying that higher tank dps means things will die faster are right but if more dps is needed for a fight i prefer dps classes to do more i might be wrong but thats what i believe.

also have in mind that tanks doing really competitive dps with the dps classes might lead to an increased number of them.
i personaly playing what i enjoy the most but a lot of ppl might play a tank because we all know that tanks are in most cases the first that will upgrade their gear and tanks are the ones with the biggest demand for raids there is always a raid spot for a tank ALWAYS.
now add the competitive dps to the above and have everyone who thinks the best about raids is gear to reroll a tank.

to finish this i like wow and i will not stop it if tanks are doing good dps.
but if i play my class as i should and a tank can compete with me then i want to be able to tank a boss to.

[Torahn]

go and take some lessons of good behavior. i made a mistake by ignoring the fact that the tank needs to take dmg for the vengeance buff to stuck. i made a mistake that doesn't make me stupidcalling me stupid because of this tells more for you than me................

TL : DR
U MAD

I do agree that vengeance is a little bit much (having hit a 24k shield slam on LK the other night kinda woke me up a bit.) Combine that with our current abilities hitting very lightly when not under vengeance does actually fulfill Blizzard's tank design goals. Make it more difficult to get the initial threat while building in a mechanic that will scale as a tank gets better gear. Realize that DPS get DPS stats (aka crit, haste, etc) to deal extra damage. We don't, as tanks, and this is a way of giving us something that will scale with our gear to help us deal more damage and more threat.

I play a tank because I like it. I don't play it to deal damage. Blizzard wants tank to generate threat from damage now, so we need to do damage. Who cares how much we do. Its just easier to make threat scale when its based on damage and not on some arbitrary numbers with no way of scaling with better gear.

[Agroculture]

How about this is based around level 85 and subject to change with cata. Tanks may not scale as well upward. We don't know yet.

How about the fight we're referring to IS a 85 raid boss (watch the vid) and you should read the thread before you post the usual platitudes?

[Junlee]

The negative aspect should be incredibly obvious. Look at omen at the end of the fight. The tank could have literally pressed his asscheeks against the keyboard and done the cha-cha, and nobody would ever catch him on threat. I'm not really that bothered by the idea of a tank doing awesome DPS, what is worrisome is that a tank capable of doing amazing DPS would just be mind-numbingly easy to play and play with.

As a hunter, I'm supposed to use Feign Death and misdirect to help myself manage threat, and by extension, help the tank keep threat above my own. Why should I even bother putting these two abilities on my bars, if a tank can just do eleventy bajillion TPS?

Of course it's incredibly obvious when you twist words and change things around...

A GOOD TANK doing 20k DPS and 20k TPS
A GOOD DPS doing 19k DPS and 19k TPS

Give or take a 4-5k marginal difference in DPS based on player reaction/factors/latency/etc.

Who said anything about making tanks do 100k dps and 200k TPS while dps do 15k DPS?

AND WHO SAID TANKS WOULD DO THIS TYPE OF DPS WHILE "NOT TANKING"?

This isn't even a discussion anymore. It's just people voicing their illogical opinion on a subject that's already been decided by the developers.

[Deleted]

Woop tanks are wet noodles!!!!!!1111one1!!

[lockos]

This isn't even a discussion anymore. It's just people voicing their illogical opinion on a subject that's already been decided by the developers.

the only that has been decided by the developers is that while tanks taking dmg they will have the vengeance buff to stuck and increase their dps.

i haven't seen any statement that the attack power cap from vengeance is already decided and will stay as it is neither i have seen any blue posts saying that they want main tanks to do competitive dps with the dps classes.

i don't even believe tanks dps will make it to live servers on the curent state but even if it does it will not last more than few hours.

take a look at what hapened at forums with mages,sp. warlocks and now imagine what will happen if ppl have tanks to outdpsing them i can predict that we will have the biggest qq from the start of wow

[Steakums]

No, they won't. With Vengeance tanks only do good damage while being hit by a boss, it means - one tank at a time.

Not entirely true, a warrior can somewhat maintain his vengeance buff but only by using Vigilance on the other tank, which is why i see 2 Warrior tanks being really good for Swap fights so you both maintain your stack, but even so I don't think overall it's going to effect raids massively, i mean in that fight in the video the tank is aoe tanking several whelps at one point as well, so all his damage he's doing to keep threat is going to be multiplied by a ton. I think on most fights you won't see a tank anywhere close to where he was on that video.

[Zao]

As far as I know they won't maintain their stack, since they only gain 20% of the damage as vengeance. So they only maintain a part of it.

[Steakums]

As far as I know they won't maintain their stack, since they only gain 20% of the damage as vengeance. So they only maintain a part of it.

Still better then having it drop off entirely cause your not taking damage.

[Junlee]

i don't even believe tanks dps will make it to live servers on the curent state but even if it does it will not last more than few hours.

take a look at what hapened at forums with mages,sp. warlocks and now imagine what will happen if ppl have tanks to outdpsing them i can predict that we will have the biggest qq from the start of wow

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