"Balanced at 85"

[cyrithor]

Few flaws in your logic sir.

Your example of 10k dmg to a 30k health pool, and then 25k to a 90k health pool. From what I can see damage isn't doubling, not even close. Most classes are doing just a little more than they are doing now with what gear has been found in the beta.

So yes, 10k damage to 30k health is a bit crazy right now

but 14k damage to 90k health, is a bit more how its..basically always been? level 60 geared rogue crit for 600 average, thats an average. and most people in vanilla had what? 5k health? not much difference just bigger numbers.

Second, combat ratings are going up more than they ever have in an expansion

From 60 to 70 crit scaled 14 crit rating = 1 crit to 22 crit rating = 1 crit at 70. A marginal change honestly.
From 70 to 80 it went from 22 rating = 1 crit to 45 rating. This was a big change, more than double the rating.
now take a look at how much you need for 85.

179 crit rating for 1 percent chance to crit. almost 4 times more rating needed, and ALL combat ratings are like this. and from what i can tell from the current epics that have been found, there isnt 4 time more of anything other than stamina. stamina has basically no budget now thought so once we hit raids health pools are going to start sky rocketing and damage is going to be slowly going up in comparison.

[Ekeln]

Just reminding all of you, who respond to every 4.0 bug and complaint thread with, "It is all meant to be balanced at 85," as if you are imparting some elusive wisdom upon the community who obviously weren't aware that the game is now meant to be "balanced at 85," all I can say to you is...

...you are an idiot and have no idea how this game works.

•*If something is doing too much damage because it is scaling too much, it will NOT BE BALANCED AT 85, because it will only be that much more powerful when wearing level 85 gear. Scaling is relative. If it's OP now, it will be OP then.

•*If something is doing too much healing because it is scaling too much, it will NOT BE BALANCED AT 85, because it will only be that much more powerful when wearing level 85 gear. Scaling is relative. If it's OP now, it will be OP then.

The only time you can actually use the "it's balanced around 85" is when discussing class vs class mechanics where some classes are missing out on some of their more important abilities and talents that help keep them in line with each other for end-game PvP and Raiding. Stop thinking you are some kind of genius because you can quote meaningless catch-phrases that you heard others say on the forums, every time someone complains that your class is too unkillable or one of your abilities hits too hard.

Blizzard can scale shit on a level for level basis. It's not that spell ranks are gone, perse, just that now there's 85 of them. They can have the scaling change dramatically upon dinging 81.

[Cerus]

@OP:

You are the idiot sir who doesn't understand how the game works. By your logic - Paladins and the rest of the healers should be OP @85 - well guess what? They aren't. Why? Scaling - the right kind of scaling. Not the twisted and completely inaccurate concept you have of it.

Mages were nerfed on live to bring them down to other classes and those changes were reverted on Beta because they were doing sub-par DPS. What you and the rest of the idiots who make threads or posts like this thing that scaling is 100% the same for every level and/or do not understand what scaling really is.

Balanced @85 means one thing and one thing only. The new talents, spells and mechanics we have now in 4.0.1 were designed for level 85 players. For example: A rocket launcher against a kitten=obliterated kitten. A rocket launcher against a tank=singed armor plating. Same attack or spell (in relation to WoW) has two different effects against against a level 80 player (kitten) and a level 85 one (tank) because of scaling.

Every class received new talents and abilities with level 85 in mind and those abilities have a much greater impact at the current level cap. Co-efficients, spell ranks (they still exist, they're just not trained anymore) gear, target HP, resistances, defense etc etc.

Short version: Just because spell A is OP against target X at 80 does NOT mean it will be against target Y at 85.

[TheBloodKrayze]

Well that could easily be explained by pointing out that this is the biggest class overhaul since launch and the whole talent tree is aimed for being balanced at 85. Only seen people from playing only at level 80 complaining, not the people on the beta at level 85.

Oh so it's perfectly fine leaving it as is until Cataclysm where Mages are 2 shotting people with 1k+ resilience lol?

[Spongy]

Put it this way. Blizzard earns how much money and yet can't employee enough people to fix current problems but instead wants to rush cata out at Christmas time to boost sales. Blizzard no longer cares what you think or do aslong as it gets its Cata out at Christmas they will be happy

[h4rr0d]

Level 80: You do 10,000dmg with a short CD ability to my 30k health pool. I cry "OP plz nerf." You claim it will be balanced at 85.

Level 85: You do 25kdmg with that same short CD ability to my now 90k health pool. Balanced at 85?

Yay there will be more stam in relation to Int/Agi/Str on gear. That will not fix overscaling issues, and to argue that they will reminds me of people going on about how Arc mages and Ret pallies were "Scaled for 80" when they were exploding handfuls of people at a time at 70. We all saw how well "balanced at 80" they were when Wrath rolled out.

tl;dr version: You're wrong.

Have you actually seen the numbers in beta that you are claming such bold statements? I've watched the raiding stream yesterday, and the numbers he's been doing are suggesting something very different. Players were doing no more than 15k DPS there, which is actually less than what you are seeing now. Same goes for healing btw.
TL,DR: health pools are increasing severely, player damage/healing output increases only slightly. Do some video research.

[Borigrad]

For example: A rocket launcher against a kitten=obliterated kitten. A rocket launcher against a tank=singed armor plating. Same attack or spell (in relation to WoW) has two different effects against against a level 80 player (kitten) and a level 85 one (tank) because of scaling.

thank you sir, i think i have found a quote for my signature

[Huntingbear_grimbatol]

except that the stat spread will be completely different and over twice as much of the item budget is going to go to stamina, meaning that all damage will be scaled back massively in relation to health. So long story short, you're wrong.

im sorry but if a currently maxed out geared mage now does 25k dps lets assume he's going to do even more at 85.
if a currently maxed out geared druid now does 15k dps lets assyme he's going to do less dps than the mage at 85.

What the heck does boss HP matter? PVP isnt going to scale better at 85 even with the 70-100k hit point pools. if someone hits for tops 30k and someone else hits for tops 20k the one with the most damage is going to win, is that balance?

[Seekzor]

Oh so it's perfectly fine leaving it as is until Cataclysm where Mages are 2 shotting people with 1k+ resilience lol?

Actually yes it is. If you don't like it cancel your account. It will only be like this for like 1-2 months every 2 years or so, if you can't handle that go play tetris instead, at least that game won't change!

[Tandurin]

Also take note that our scaling is only relative to the scaling of mobs. Mobs and bosses will scale harder in this expansion than they would in TBC and WoTLK. Meaning that their resistances will also scale more making our abilities do less damage than they do at this point in time. Also in pvp Resillience will fix it, lol.

[Huntingbear_grimbatol]

Put it this way. Blizzard earns how much money and yet can't employee enough people to fix current problems but instead wants to rush cata out at Christmas time to boost sales. Blizzard no longer cares what you think or do aslong as it gets its Cata out at Christmas they will be happy

that is only been true since activision got into Blizzards nose.
Activision money milking company.
Blizzard entertainment company.

[Borigrad]

im sorry but if a currently maxed out geared mage now does 25k dps lets assume he's going to do even more at 85.
if a currently maxed out geared druid now does 15k dps lets assyme he's going to do less dps than the mage at 85.

What the heck does boss HP matter? PVP isnt going to scale better at 85 even with the 70-100k hit point pools. if someone hits for tops 30k and someone else hits for tops 20k the one with the most damage is going to win, is that balance?

i get this feeling, you have never pvped, against a boomkin... seriously pvp is not just about damage and you know it, stop making bad arguements that you know are wrong.

Edit: to everyone saying this game is rushed, thats because it was, by the player base, as much as i blame acitivision for Starcraft 2 and it's mess ups, the player base of WoW has rushed cataclysm to an early release.

[Seekzor]

im sorry but if a currently maxed out geared mage now does 25k dps lets assume he's going to do even more at 85.
if a currently maxed out geared druid now does 15k dps lets assyme he's going to do less dps than the mage at 85.

What the heck does boss HP matter? PVP isnt going to scale better at 85 even with the 70-100k hit point pools. if someone hits for tops 30k and someone else hits for tops 20k the one with the most damage is going to win, is that balance?

You and a lot of others needs to get a fact in to their heads. Scaling doesn't work like you think it does.

[cyrithor]

im sorry but if a currently maxed out geared mage now does 25k dps lets assume he's going to do even more at 85.
if a currently maxed out geared druid now does 15k dps lets assyme he's going to do less dps than the mage at 85.

What the heck does boss HP matter? PVP isnt going to scale better at 85 even with the 70-100k hit point pools. if someone hits for tops 30k and someone else hits for tops 20k the one with the most damage is going to win, is that balance?

So..what your saying is.. mages have always done more damage, druids have always done less damage.. since vanilla.. so what your saying is because of that, the game has never been balanced by your logic.. Not all classes need insane burst, and also - show me a clip of a mage doing 25k dps in pvp.

[Cerus]

thank you sir, i think i have found a quote for my signature

Hey anytime

PS. Those poor kittens! Won't anyone think of the kittens?!

[thoatria]

Just popping in to say that if the OP does not know that every spell has its own individual scaling (and always has), he is clearly an idiot.

Although, their biggest problem right now is trying to balance at 85 (what they should be doing) *and* at 80 (what they are doing for all the QQers) at the same time.

[Borigrad]

Hey anytime

PS. Those poor kittens! Won't anyone think of the kittens?!

i'm just glad i could get something useful out of this thread before it got locked.

[Doldis]

I love how some people here seem to miss the point that Wrath PvP and Cata PvP will work COMPLETELY differently! Currently, and throughout Wrath, it was all about killing someone faster than they could heal the target/kill you. In Cata it will be more battles of attrition, and thus focus will go AWAY from burst dmg and high dmg in general, and more towards control of the battle and outlasting your enemies in terms of HP, cooldowns and recources. I guess some people never learn though. Just because PvP has been this way the last 2 years or so, doesn't mean its going to be the same for all eternity.

[Cerus]

Just popping in to say that if the OP does not know that every spell has its own individual scaling (and always has), he is clearly an idiot.

Although, their biggest problem right now is trying to balance at 85 (what they should be doing) *and* at 80 (what they are doing for all the QQers) at the same time.

And that has me thinking. With all the hotfixes essentially going bye bye when Cata launches - isn't that going to give those classes a leg up in the leveling process? Then again - leveling to 81 takes all of an hour if that and due to scaling said classes damage may be drastically reduced - however if it's not immediate upon leveling then well...there ya go.

A possible concern for those who are going to stay up for 3 days straight to rush to 85 for the FoS that no one will remember a week after launch.

[Zeta333]

How about and bare with me, They make it so RIGHT NOW we have class mechanics that arnt broken and done rely on shit that you get at 81 and up, How about when cata comes out they change it back to how it is now. Godforbid they dont make us run 2 full fucking months with broken ass specs that will "ballance" at 85 on 80 content that was built for an ENTIRE other game.