More Detailed Spoiler info from The Shattering

[Deleted]

And in so doing he robebd Moria of her right to rule, and imposed a Council made up of three Clans without even bothering to ask of anyone thought it was good idea, or wanted it. Granted, the situation itself is ridiculous....the Dwarves shouldn't have simply rolled over and accepted Dark Iron rule especially given their history...but Varian remopved a ruelr he didn't like and put in place a ruler he did.

1: He robbed her of her right to rule because she did not deserve it! She was going to lead Ironforge to ruin due to her actions. Varian stood up for us Dwarves by stopping the Dark iron invasion.
2: He suggested it! And the dwarves could always have voiced against it. Neither one of them did, because his idea was brilliant!
3: Don't go twisting this around: He didn't place a ruler he liked, he placed rulers (with emphasis on the s) who would be able to lead Ironforge in the best interest of their people. Also he didn't like Moira, yet he still suggested putting her there. These weren't rulers he liked or who were pro him, they were representatives of their people and with a mind of their own.

Muradin and the Wildhammers weren't even consulted.

The wildhammers could always have refused And so could Moradin They weren't present, so Varian had to come up with an idea that would serve all the dwarves, and his idea (once again) was great.

Had Muradin disagreed with it, he would not have done what Varian said. In the end we dwarves STILL had the last word in these matters (except Moira, but I think you can understand why). They simply thought his idea was the best, regardless who came up with it

Yes...Ironforge is better off now. He still meddled in the internal affairs of a sovereign state. He viewed Moira not as the rightful heiress, and lawful ruler of the nation....which she was...but as an usurper who held his son hostage.

EJL

1: You should be happy he "meddled" in our affairs! Had he not done so, then Ironforge would now be under Dark iron rule! He didn't meddle in our affairs, he saved us from people who actually DID meddle aka the Dark irons and a princess who was now a member of the dark irons. In the end, every dwarf was gratefull that he showed up, and put an end to the Dark iron rule.

2: He viewed her as an usurper because she WAS one! She was officially the ruler, but she also was the one who sided with the very enemies of her clan who had tried to take out the Bronzebeards for thousands of years. As a ruler she had the responsibility to take care of her people, which she didn't. In fact, she considers herself a spokesman for the Dark irons, and not her own bronzebeard people. Hence why she is a usurper.

3: Stop complaining how Varian meddled in our affairs! The alternative was every Ironforge's nightmare, because we were now being conquered by our arch enemy without us even being able to put up as much as a fight. You don't look a gifted horde in the mouth you know.

4: Also stop repeating about how Moira was the "official" ruler. Yes, we now know that she "officially" was the ruler. And we also know that she handed Iron forge over to the dark irons, making her not a ruler in the sence that she did what was best for her people!

Neither one of those two things matter! If Varian did not care about the dwarves, and simply marched in and claimed that he would decide how they would live without reason then YES. But he marched into Ironforge not to force them to live by his rules, but to save the dwarves from being conquered by the Dark irons! They were the ones who did all the things your accusing Varian of doing.

The situation calls for a whole different scenario, and by all means he was right to do as he did!

Remember: Rules excist to protect their people. If the rules don't do that, or even harm them, then the rules need to be changed, or we must accept exceptions to the rule! Varian's actions were not those of someone who meddled into our affairs, they were from someone who stood up for his dwarven allies like he did before (see the comics). By betraying her people, she violated the very reason why these rules were made in the first place.

Nobody wanted her, because everyone knew she sold them out, regardless if her intentions were good. And we Dwarves still had the last say in making this covernment, and we all agreed that it was a good plan

I think I explained this in some of my previous posts as wel Could you read through those first? I don't want people accusing me of spamming the forum

[Solid Snake]

Let's look at the facts.

Moira, left IF to go knock boots with the Dark Irons, suddenly wants to play for both teams after aligning herself with the Bronzebeard's most hated enemy. Legal or not, its underhanded and despicable.

Moira puts Dark Iron troops in Ironforge. These troops are known for their ruthlessness and treachorous tactics. Hell, Dark Irons civilian or otherwise are known for their barbarities in Shadowforge city. Do I even need to go through these crimes? Slavery? Torture? Gladiatorial public executions? Working with Twilights? Everyone knows these soldiers are brutal scum suckers. And they are in the city.

She also disbands the Ironforge Senate. A governmental body that obviously represents the dwarven people. If it didn't then why call it a senate? She takes the power away from the people and makes herself a dictatorial monarch.

Oh, she also attempts to hold Anduin hostage, and effectively locks-down the city from the Alliance. Alarm bells people.

Varian had every right to decapitate this bitch. You don't allow someone to perform a hostile takeover on your allied nation. You don't allow a dictator to become a full-blown dictator. Especially when these people are known for being brutal, imperialistic sadistic monsters.

[Sut]

Sadly, that's the thing. It wasn't an Honorable battle because of Magatha's interference. Garrosh should have declined the battle instead of up-ing the ante. Instead, he went for the bull-headed bluff and Cairne called him on it.

The whole thing is full of stuff that shouldn't have happened. And while I still don't like Garrosh, I don't blame him 100% for Cairne's death. He helped lead up to it (presenting the opportunity to the Grimtotem), but it wasn't his fault Cairne died or that Garrosh wanted to kill him.

In the end, I have to blame Thrall for not hearing out Vol'Jin, Cairne and Etrigg. He also could have waited to ask Varok about this situation. Plus, as much as it seems out of the loop, the Blood Elves and the Forsaken should have had a say in who the next leader of the Horde would be. Obviously, it wouldn't be a Forsaken or Blood Elf, but a Horde leader who would be willing to work with all of the Horde would've been best.

Alas, the whole situation was destined to fail from the get-go, and blame is there to go all around.

Cairne greatly insulted Garrosh's honour, accusing him of a crime he didn't commit.
I don't think I need to explain how vastly import honour is in Orcish society.

[Ken_Silver]

Cairne greatly insulted Garrosh's honour, accusing him of a crime he didn't commit.
I don't think I need to explain how vastly import honour is in Orcish society.

Yeah, I understand the honor aspect of the Horde. In the circumstances leading up to Cairne's death, Garrosh only makes 1 mistake, in my opinion. He ups the ante when no one else even thought about it. He reasoning was logical: if he made it a duel to the death, then perhaps Cairne would back down.

But sadly, Cairne called his bluff and the duel continued. Garrosh is not at fault for the poisoned blade or for fighting back in a duel to the death, but he never should have upped the ante. I can see why he did it, but he really shouldn't. If he could go back and change his mind, I bet he would.

Garrosh is not a saint, but he's not the villain everyone wants him to be. He just likes to swing first and ask questions later. If you're an Young Orc, that's kind of how you do it. Consider me an Old Orc soul. They are aware of the problems that Garrosh will run into and don't want him to end up like Grom. That's pretty much it.