Glyph of Mind Spike. Post 4.0

[Twiggy]

I realize they don't want to add glyphs attached to brand new spells, which is why I specify "post 4.0". Possibly as a new talent down the road.

"Adding a secondary effect to Heroic Leap, like a Thunder Clap or letting you get out of roots might be a good role for a glyph. We don't like to glyph new high level abilities immediately because then players don't appreciate what the glyph does for them, since they have never used the ability unglyphed. It's something we could consider for a future patch."
-GC
http://blue.mmo-champion.com/t/26560...on-build-12942 (At the very bottom)


Glyph of Mind Spike
Prime/Major Glyph
Requires Level 81

While under the effects of Dark Archangel, your Mind Spike no longer extinguishes your damage-over-time spells. Increases the cooldown of Dark Archangel by X seconds.

Archangel
Instant
Dark Archangel (Dark Evangelism) - Instantly restores 5% of your total mana and increases the damage done by your Mind Flay, Mind Spike, Mind Blast and Shadow Word: Death 4% for each stack. Lasts for 18 sec. X sec cooldown.

Essentially, allow Mind Spike/Mind Blast combos to work it's way into our rotation on a 90 - 120 second cooldown. Could be fun.

[Kelesti]

Major Glyph, no cooldown increase. But I was thinking exactly the same thing, really.

[Annesh]

I'd rather the glyph make mind spike not horrid for pvp.

[davie]

Love the idea! It'll still be a decent glyph to have in pvp to give some extra oomph when you need it

[Kelesti]

As far as I'm aware, you can cast Archangel when locked out of Shadow, which would mean without the cooldown increase, this would be a viable PvP glyph.

But most people are forgetting a few thing's it's not supposed to do:
A) It was never meant to be rotational.

B) It can't be allowed to replace Mind Flay in either PvE or PvP

C) It can't allow 100% of your normal damage output to continue when you're counterspelled. Being Kicked is supposed to mean something.

And yes, stripping DoTs to pressure burst the last 15% (with double Death) of a Resto Druid with Silence is worth dropping the DoTs.

Games may not be "burst" as they are seen now (100-0 in a global and/or stun), but that doesn't mean burst plays no role in forcing cooldowns or that last push.

[llDemonll]

but if it's on the CD of archangel...does that really count as rotational?

[Kelesti]

No, it doesn't. What I meant by that is they don't want "MS MS MF MB, repeat" as part of a general PvE rotation.

My particular "what people are forgetting" was aimed at our community at large, specifically the ones saying at all times how "useless" the spell is, and they want a real spammable nuke. They might as well roll Affliction, personally.

[Twiggy]

It's true that Mind Spike isn't supposed to be part of a normal rotation, or be used in conjunction with a 1.5minute cooldown in most pve encounters. Which is why a glyph would be perfect for this. Allow it to burn down trash/adds like it is intended, but allowing Mind Spikex3 > Mind Blast combos to sneak into a cooldown for a burn phase isn't that far off from what glyphs allow people to do already.

Glyph of Elemental Mastery is a pure offensive cooldown. The new glyph attaches a damage reduction effect. Something it was never intended to do.

Glyph of grounding totem turns Ground totem into something it was never intended to do in the past 6 years. Allowing it to reflect spells. Something it was never intended to do.

Glyph of Ice Block resets your Frost nova cooldown. Something it was never intended to do.

Glyph of Polymorph and Seduction removes all existing dots on the target. Something it was never intended to do.

Glyph of Mind Spike won't extinguish your dots during Dark Archangel. Something it was never intended to do.


Get the picture?

[Fergand]

Glyph of Mind Spike
Major Glyph

Adds a chill effect to Mind Spike, decreasing enemy movement speed by 10% per stack of Mind Spike. The Mind Spike debuff's duration is also lowered to 6 seconds.

[Annesh]

C) It can't allow 100% of your normal damage output to continue when you're counterspelled. Being Kicked is supposed to mean something.

And yes, stripping DoTs to pressure burst the last 15% (with double Death) of a Resto Druid with Silence is worth dropping the DoTs.

Games may not be "burst" as they are seen now (100-0 in a global and/or stun), but that doesn't mean burst plays no role in forcing cooldowns or that last push.

I disagree with your assessment of the role of the current mind spike in pvp. It was billed as relief for the shadowpriest's vulnerability to school lockout. However, since it's now so situational (you yourself could only come up with one specific instance where it would be moderately useful, and you're arguing for the dot removal), its value is dramatically diminished.

The only way one can satisfactorily argue that the change is fine for pvp is if the intended pvp purpose of mind spike has at some point been changed from "anti spell interrupt" to "bursting down a seriously wounded target." And if that's the case, then the spell is just flat out less attractive for pvp than it was originally intended to be, which is pretty much what we're arguing in the first place.

TLDR; the new version no longer fulfills the spell's original intended function, and if that intent is no longer applicable then the spell is just plain less attractive for pvp than it was originally supposed to be.

[harky]

You're making a lot of claims without basis. The intent of Mind Spike is for a DPS tool to use on mobs which do not live long enough for DoTs to be worthwhile, not merely to have something to do when Shadow is locked. Blizzard creates very, very few spells with PVP in mind as a primary use and Mind Spike is certainly not one of them. It's meant to allow Shadow to be useful on fights like Marrowgar where there are very low health adds. Without Mind Spike the best reaction from a Shadow Priest is simply to let other people handle it. Blizzard doesn't like it, so we get Mind Spike. This is also the reason for it's secondary effect.

I agree with the quote in that glyphing it wouldn't make much sense. It already does exactly what it's meant to do, so changing it with a glyph would either need to change what it's used for entirely, or be some bland increase in damage.

[Kelesti]

harky, they also said they didn't mind it being for a burst phase, like using it during Dark Archangel and/or Bloodlust. This glyph would allow that.

[Annesh]

You're making a lot of claims without basis.

Except I'm not. Either you haven't followed shadow's evolution through cata's development, or you forgot. Or something.

Its pve purpose was supposed to be adds, and in its current incarnation it fills that niche nicely while also providing the interesting new ability to clean off all your dots if you want.

The problem is its pvp purpose because (insert my whole other post here).

[Twiggy]

You're making a lot of claims without basis. The intent of Mind Spike is for a DPS tool to use on mobs which do not live long enough for DoTs to be worthwhile, not merely to have something to do when Shadow is locked. Blizzard creates very, very few spells with PVP in mind as a primary use and Mind Spike is certainly not one of them. It's meant to allow Shadow to be useful on fights like Marrowgar where there are very low health adds. Without Mind Spike the best reaction from a Shadow Priest is simply to let other people handle it. Blizzard doesn't like it, so we get Mind Spike. This is also the reason for it's secondary effect.

I agree with the quote in that glyphing it wouldn't make much sense. It already does exactly what it's meant to do, so changing it with a glyph would either need to change what it's used for entirely, or be some bland increase in damage.

It's true, it's PvE intent is for burning down low health adds. Very dull. There's already glyphs in the game that make spells do things that they weren't intended to do (See my last post in this thread). So a glyph like this, not entirely unheard of.

And no, he is not making claims without basis. Here is a direct quote from the Cataclysm Priest preview.

"Mind Spike (level 81): Deals Shadowfrost damage and puts a debuff on the target that improves subsequent Mind Spike damage. The intent of Mind Spike is to fill a niche missing in Shadow DPS, though it may be occasionally useful for healers as well. Mind Spike provides a quick nuke to use in situations where the priest doesn't have time to set up the normal rotation, such as when adds are dying too fast or you have to swap targets a lot. Spamming Mind Spike will do about as much damage as casting Mind Flay on a target afflicted with Shadow Word: Pain. The idea behind the debuff is that when you cast Mind Spike, we expect you to cast a lot of them; we don't intend you to fit it into an already full Shadow rotation. It also provides Shadow with a spell to cast when locked out of the Shadow school. (School lockouts will no longer affect both schools for multi-school spells.) 1.5-second cast. 30-yard range. No cooldown."

- http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/th...38432151&sid=1


Mind you, it also says they never intended it to be part of a normal rotation. The Glyph in the OP would be more of a burn-phase, cooldown based ability.

[Scobbs]

You're making a lot of claims without basis. The intent of Mind Spike is for a DPS tool to use on mobs which do not live long enough for DoTs to be worthwhile, not merely to have something to do when Shadow is locked. Blizzard creates very, very few spells with PVP in mind as a primary use and Mind Spike is certainly not one of them. It's meant to allow Shadow to be useful on fights like Marrowgar where there are very low health adds. Without Mind Spike the best reaction from a Shadow Priest is simply to let other people handle it. Blizzard doesn't like it, so we get Mind Spike. This is also the reason for it's secondary effect.

I agree with the quote in that glyphing it wouldn't make much sense. It already does exactly what it's meant to do, so changing it with a glyph would either need to change what it's used for entirely, or be some bland increase in damage.

Except if it's not meant to be used in PvP, why are the talents Mind Melt (2/2) and Paralysis (2/2) in the tree? I realize these talents provide situational benefits even if you don't use Mind Spike, but without the spell, they don't have the synergy that was present up until recently.

PvP priests don't want a new rotational spell, we want synergy.

[Kelesti]

PvP priests don't want a new rotational spell, we want synergy.

That depends on who you ask, because quite a vocal following want to replace Mind Flay with a direct damage spell like Mind Spike, and play like Affliction Warlocks.

[harky]

Except if it's not meant to be used in PvP, why are the talents Mind Melt (2/2) and Paralysis (2/2) in the tree? I realize these talents provide situational benefits even if you don't use Mind Spike, but without the spell, they don't have the synergy that was present up until recently.

PvP priests don't want a new rotational spell, we want synergy.

Mind Melt helps serve the purpose Mind Spike was intended for and Paralysis, while it can have synergy, is meant simply to boost Mind Blast in PVP. If you use Mind Melt to boost it as well, more power to you. Mind Melt, the talent which does directly benefit Mind Spike is there to allow you to help burst adds quicker by hasting a MB.

Anyway, 'not being meant for pvp' and 'not designed specifically with PVP in mind' are very different.

[Thrayne]

I can't find out the crit buff for MB from MS anywhere, doesn't anyone know you can build the crit buff and possibly get 3 orbs before a mind blast?

[Scobbs]

That depends on who you ask, because quite a vocal following want to replace Mind Flay with a direct damage spell like Mind Spike, and play like Affliction Warlocks.

I fear I was too general. I should stick to speaking for myself and not the community .

I am personally happy with mind flay as our go-to, especially at 40 yards with a slow.

Mind Melt helps serve the purpose Mind Spike was intended for and Paralysis, while it can have synergy, is meant simply to boost Mind Blast in PVP. If you use Mind Melt to boost it as well, more power to you. Mind Melt, the talent which does directly benefit Mind Spike is there to allow you to help burst adds quicker by hasting a MB.

Anyway, 'not being meant for pvp' and 'not designed specifically with PVP in mind' are very different.

I think shadow priests need a PvP root that's not based on RNG. Mind Melt + Paralysis provides that, but it's now a very harsh trade-off with DoT removal. I'm willing to wait and see if Dark Archangel + Mind Spike into instant Mind Blast is viable burst in PvP, but it's frustrating to see our reliable root now hampering our damage.

It seems difficult to please both PvE and PvP shadow priests with this spell, but the best mechanic for that kind of situation would seem to be glyphs. I do hope they implement one that lets us keep DoTs on a Mind Spiked target, even if it results in a damage loss to the spell.

[Owltoid]

How about a root that works for 3 seconds and has them drop their weapon? That would be sweeeet