Anyone know a good article about DPS vs DMG?

[draticus]

An arcane mage in my guild is pulling 16k dps in ICC10 man by just using arcane blast until they go OOM and then doing nothing while mana regens. Of course they're doing less damage than the other classes doing 10k dps (unless its a very short fight obviously). The raid leader is encouraging the other two arcane mages to do the same thing because it makes their dps so high.

I've been trying to explain that dps is completely meaningless because its more a reflection of how frequently you're causing damage than how much total damage you're actually doing to the boss. Its damage/"in combat time." In combat time is just a completely meaningless number that gets lower(inflating your dps) the more time you spend NOT doing damage.

So all I can find are threads where people debate about the topic but of course those are filled with stupid mages defending "dps". I'm looking for a nice article that makes a clear argument on the topic that I could present to them. Has anyone seen anything like that?

[Tayfow]

Why don't you just link a recount with the damage done? It's pretty concrete, irrefutable evidence. If they aren't able to see that they have done less damage to the boss over the course of the fight, I would highly recommend you find a new guild, since you're running with bads.

Edit: lol you could come to mine even! I'm transferring to zul'jin for cataclysm and firing up a 10man guild.

[herpecin]

stop using recount and get a real damage meter

[draticus]

stop using recount and get a real damage meter

Thank you, thats very helpful. Because what meter I use will have an effect on how other people view DPS vs DMG done. Stop trolling.

[Deleted]

DPS = Epeen
Damage = knowing how to use it.

Stop rolling with bads or slap them in the face and tell them to stop sucking.

[Voij]

Show them some logs. Record logs. Use skada and link the fight-results in chat.

Also, just leave. If somebody would tell me what your guildleader was suggesting to the other guys, I'd accept that he probably is from Mississippi, tell him that I'm sorry for him and leave.
Then again, I can't help dumb people. I don't like dumb people. I can't understand dumb people.
Just... just don't let me get near dumb people and everything will be fine. Hmm? Why, yes, that's a butcher's knife... say, what's your IQ? *insert evil laughter here*

[Eletharin]

You found threads where people defended having higher DPS and less overall damage done? On trash (where some terrible people base a lot of their meters) or overall for the night (since such a large component is trash) you could possibly make this argument, though in truth including trash makes any numbers meaningless unless you're hitting the trash reset timer in between pulls. Lower overall and higher DPS on trash means you probably gave the tanks a second to get agro and were less of an obnoxious meter whoring prick. However, on a boss encounter this distinction becomes trivial since the few seconds as the encounter start are quickly diluted by the length of the fight.

Most people are looking at a "damage done" graph when they say "DPS", so if the mages in question are lower on the chart for a boss fight you raid leader may have a point and you're just arguing semantics. If the mages in question are doing more damage during boss encounters and your raid leader is encouraging them to do less overall damage to make a DPS only chart look more pretty your should probably just go find a pug cause they will probably have less trouble with gunship then your current guild.

Oh, also make sure your meter isn't set to look at the complete night, but rather just single encounters. If you're including trash on your meters and your high DPS mage is lazy on trash they will look lower in the damage done category even if they are pwning face during boss encounters when if counts.

stop using recount and get a real damage meter

Recount is pretty accurate and using another addon would not at all influence the DPS/damage done debate. 0/10 for the troll but go away.

---------- Post added 2010-10-20 at 11:05 PM ----------

DPS = Epeen
Damage = knowing how to use it.

Stop rolling with bads or slap them in the face and tell them to stop sucking.

Actually ...

DPS = Damage/Seconds
Damage = Damage/Seconds * Seconds = DPS * Seconds

Its actually pretty hard to skew one number without changing the other on any meaningful encounter. The advantage and attraction to DPS is its independent from the specific encounter and provides a quick assessment of damage dealing potential. Epeen comes in when you put either number above the ability of your raid to successfully complete the encounter.

[BloodVengeance]

Thank you, thats very helpful. Because what meter I use will have an effect on how other people view DPS vs DMG done. Stop trolling.

Actually they told you exactly what your looking for, but if you are disagreeing then your just trolling, cause you can with recount look at all information you could possibly want to know about a fight in.

[terrih91]

like everyone was saying post the damage meter its a thing to shut up people who say they beat u by 1k dps but u beat em by 5-10% dmg done to the boss.

[draticus]

Actually they told you exactly what your looking for, but if you are disagreeing then your just trolling, cause you can with recount look at all information you could possibly want to know about a fight in.

Moronic. I'm looking for a clearly stated opinion on DPS vs DMG done that comes from someone other than me. That's what I asked for. Which meter I, or anyone else uses has nothing to do with that. The problem was never about getting good meters. It was about the theory of how to interpret them.

Also, I'm not even sure I can understand what you're trying to say. They told me to stop using recount and I told them thats not helpful. Then you told me I'm wrong because recount tells me everything I need to know about a "fight in." Are you for recount or against it? Oh well, doesn't matter because recount has nothing to do with my request.

[Deleted]

No Boss has ever died to high DPS numbers alone.

Bosses die after a certain amount of damage has been dealt to them.

If your guild-mates don't get that....then....WoW...things are pretty bad.

The only reason why DPS as a benchmark exists is so that it is easier to compare performances across the board. But even DPS numbers are partially influenced by your guilds performance, not just your own.

[Simca]

Thank you, thats very helpful. Because what meter I use will have an effect on how other people view DPS vs DMG done. Stop trolling.

It actually will, Recount calculates DPS in a very, very poor way that does not account for Activity time.

Upload the logs to an online logging site (WorldofLogs, WoWMeterOnline, etc) and show them their DPS modified by Activity Time.

They'll cry at how poorly it shows them.

Or, switch over to Skada, which actually takes activity time into account.

No Boss has ever died to high DPS numbers alone.

Bosses die after a certain amount of damage has been dealt to them.

If your guild-mates don't get that....then....WoW...things are pretty bad.

Also, this.

It makes me really upset to know that there are people who think that DPS > Damage Done to an extent that they actually sit there doing nothing waiting for mana regen.

[Lagwin]

Just do some maths...if you use deadly boss mods it has a timer that is started when you engage a boss and when you kill the boss it tells you the duration of the fight. then take their dps(16k per second?) then multiply that by how many seconds it took to kill the boss. Lets say a 5 miniute fight 300 seconds they should have done 4800000 damage if they were on it 100%, you can tell how bad the are when they only have a fraction of that compared to someone doing less dps but more damage.

[BoomChickn]

DPS = Epeen
Damage = knowing how to use it.

Stop rolling with bads or slap them in the face and tell them to stop sucking.

qft...
And, just yeah link recount on damage dealt for current fight, ???, profit

[conqq]

Does anyone know if Skada displays dmg %s? I can't remember

[Herecius]

There's a reason that World of Logs only counts EDPS (Effective DPS) for records; because straight DPS is a pointless number that can be inflated by stopping all damage on the boss and just doing burst.

[Deleted]

An arcane mage in my guild is pulling 16k dps in ICC10 man by just using arcane blast until they go OOM and then doing nothing while mana regens. Of course they're doing less damage than the other classes doing 10k dps (unless its a very short fight obviously). The raid leader is encouraging the other two arcane mages to do the same thing because it makes their dps so high.

I've been trying to explain that dps is completely meaningless because its more a reflection of how frequently you're causing damage than how much total damage you're actually doing to the boss. Its damage/"in combat time." In combat time is just a completely meaningless number that gets lower(inflating your dps) the more time you spend NOT doing damage.

So all I can find are threads where people debate about the topic but of course those are filled with stupid mages defending "dps". I'm looking for a nice article that makes a clear argument on the topic that I could present to them. Has anyone seen anything like that?

The difference your guildmates need to understand is:

Whatever your dps is at, the thing that matters is being on top of the damage done between the time the boss was pulled and it was killed(or you wiped). In general, having a high damage done will mean you have high dps, but sometimes for arcane mages who have no dots, some damage meters count only the time spent casting/damaging as effective dpsing time, not the time between the pull and kill, and will result in awkward situations where the highest dps person is not the highest on damage done.

In any case, I hope this thread will be your good article about dps vs dmg. If your guildies are unable to understand the reasoning made in this post you are better of elsewhere

Oh and as far as arcane mages go, being at 0% mana and waiting for evocation is the single most stupid thing i've heard, especially with the new mastery that makes arcane mages do more damage at high mana


edit: the best type of question to ask would probably be: "would you rather have me doing x dps and take 10 mill health of the boss down, or doing x^2 dps and take 7 mill down."

[Xuvial]

Strange, DPS meters have been out for several years and people are still talking about DPS instead of Damage Done? I don't think you should be raiding with people who don't even know how to interpret the meters properly.

[ComputerNerd]

If your attempts so far have failed to get that through, then no article you can link will make any difference either.
They are just idiots and nothing we can do will change that.

[Entaaro]

Regardless, your mages should be topping "damage done" if not under boomkins.
OT: damage done is the be all and end all of a damage dealer's performance, encounter mechanics considered well executed. If you cannot convey this, even without "proof", to your guild, then there is not much else to say than to find a new guild or pvp/achieve whore/pu until the expansion is out.