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  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by belfpala View Post
    Neh. If the difficulty is tuned correctly, it doesn't make a difference. Not saying the difficulty will be properly tuned. Predicting that 25 man will actually be easier, as it was in T7 (other than Immortal achievement). We'll see though.
    10m will always be more effective than 25m, but thats offtopic since this thread aint bout it.

  2. #62
    Field Marshal Viv's Avatar
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    I just want to point out, that you classify yourself as a 'raider'... and yet you have downed less content than pug GDKP runs on my server (including two I lead). These runs consist of casual players, alts, etc - so just because you put in more time to down less content doesn't make you anything special or deserve anything more. Also, you obviously haven't been a 'raider' that long as you only got your Twilight Zone 25m achieve yesterday... All in all, it's kind of a joke that you feel you are in some way superior to other people and deserve more than they do.

  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by TehSklatt View Post
    i posted this somewhere else here, but decided i actually wanted to hear some answers so lemme know what yall think

    Look I'm not trying to troll anyone, but I'm a raider, that's what i do, its the only thing fun in this game to me. I'm trying to understand it from the point of view, of someone who doesn't raid but still wants raiding gear.
    you raid to get gear, no matter what anyone says that's the underlying reason for being there, its your incentive, so why should raid gear be available to people who don't raid. i also understand that Blizz doesn't care about raiders, only money so they will continue to give away free gear.
    I like to stand out, when you see me on my server, you know i raid, you can tell i know what I'm doing by the gear I'm wearing. you heroics runners say you deserve the gear we are wearing but don't we deserve something to ourselves?

    looking for honest answers here no jk
    -tehsklatt
    Well, I'm not going to say that blizzards model of letting all players see all content is a bad one, because why spend all those thousands of hours on content 5% of the population will see? With that said, I don't think their model with ICC has been a huge success either. Mostly because we soon have been raiding the place for 1 whole year and got a boooooring 30% buff. This made it so much easier to pug icc and get gear. So after one year and with a 30% buff of course players are going to get gear from normal icc. So while they have brought bads and raiders closer in terms of gear, the raiders had full 264 way earlier and had better progression than most pugs. Unless guilds these days are not picky about who they let into raids, bad players are not going to get much heroic gear at all from pugging. Pugs, at least on my server, very often fails at anything harder than lootship hc. So bads (and unfortuantely guilds struggling with getting 25 mans together) = 264 without loot from sindragosa/LK compared to serious raiders that has 277. Not saying this is set in stone, but that's what it's like on my server.

    So while the gap isn't as big in terms of gear, raiders can get titles in the relevant content that pugs cannot. As people have said, you get a different color on your gear, and back in the days when there was no/5% icc buff people actually did admire you for being decked out in full T10, it just disappeared when more people got it too. So the only thing that screams "hardcore player" these days are titles and mounts.
    Tier 7: "of the Nightfall" "the Twilight Vanquisher" "the Immortal", Plagued Proto-drake to mention a few.
    Tier 8: "Herald of the Titans" "Conqueror of Ulduar" "Starcaller" "Ironbound proto-drake"
    Tier 9: "the Argent Defender" "A Tribute to Insanity"
    Tier 10: "Bane of the Fallen King" "Light of Dawn" Icebound Frostbrood Vanquisher (the ICC drake)

    You just don't see bad players get these when the content is relevant. So get up on your mount in dalaran and show off your titles and drakes, those still scream "hardcore" more than your gear. and the earlier you get them, the more impressed people will be. It's as simple as that =)

    Oh, and the access to easy gear makes recruiting easier since you don't have to drag new recruits through earlier tier raids to gear them up before you can continue raiding BT for example.

    As for "why should non-raiding players get the same gear as raiders": Because running around in gear from heroics is only *so* much fun. They have also reached the level cap, they also want to progress their character beyond that kind of gear. To be honest, they only get a couple of pieces from badges (not counting JP) and if they don't raid it takes many many weeks to get the gear you need from there. And then you would still be stuck in 251 gear. But why shouldn't they be able to get something better as well with new content tiers? Because they're not hardcore enough? The game isn't just about raiding. Maybe they enjoy soling stuff? That gets easier (and more fun when you get gear to take down more bosses). Questing is made easier for those that enjoy that. I hate this argument, and yet I'm going to use it: They pay for the game, hence they are entitled to *some* benefits without raiding. And no, they are not in any way "entitled" to clearing ICC. The buff was a mistake on blizzards part. You beat encounters by farming gear for it and having the skill to beat it. It gets easier every week with more and more tries and learning of mechanics.

    So you are right that the gear gap is smaller, but there are still many things that can separate the real raiders from the bad players or those not interested that much in raiding.
    Last edited by Netherwolf; 2010-10-25 at 08:29 AM.

  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by Viv View Post
    I just want to point out, that you classify yourself as a 'raider'... and yet you have downed less content than pug GDKP runs on my server (including two I lead). These runs consist of casual players, alts, etc - so just because you put in more time to down less content doesn't make you anything special or deserve anything more. Also, you obviously haven't been a 'raider' that long as you only got your Twilight Zone 25m achieve yesterday... All in all, it's kind of a joke that you feel you are in some way superior to other people and deserve more than they do.
    as ive said in many posts before this one, but i will say again, im not better than anyone im not the best raider, never said i was. what i did say was im a raider, and i raid for my gear, why should it be any different for anyone else? see i only have like 16 days on my character at level 80, because i just newly restarted this game, which would explain the achieves =P. now you might understand why i would ask these questions, the last time i played this game was when t6 was the shit, and i know they wasnt handing that out, you either raided and got it, or didnt.

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by TehSklatt View Post
    you feel sad for me, you talk about these sympathetic guilds that gear people up for the hell of it? go check my armory again, im done with raiding as there is no point to getting anymore gear, but i still run a weekly icc10 reg with RL friends and random noobs from the server, strictly for them, i enjoy teaching them the basics. and its really meh, i did the 25 man icc heroics till i got my gear set, then i quit raiding hardcore, just how i did in bc. but even though im not in a 25 man guild i dont think i should have any chance at getting a 277 trinket that i really need, unless i get in there and down the boss. thats the whole point of the thread, why get raid gear, for not raiding lol
    The way you post, you wouldn't have made the LoL-cut in my guild. Axed, in other words, no matter what gear you have. Gudbie!

    Hints:
    Try having a point.
    Try sentences and paragraphs.
    Try capitalization.
    Try punctuation.
    Try announcing that English isn't your first language if it happens not to be, and try explaining how that won't make you lag behind in an English-speaking guild (or forum).

    ---------- Post added 2010-10-25 at 08:29 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Viv View Post
    I just want to point out, that you classify yourself as a 'raider'... and yet you have downed less content than pug GDKP runs on my server (including two I lead). These runs consist of casual players, alts, etc - so just because you put in more time to down less content doesn't make you anything special or deserve anything more. Also, you obviously haven't been a 'raider' that long as you only got your Twilight Zone 25m achieve yesterday... All in all, it's kind of a joke that you feel you are in some way superior to other people and deserve more than they do.
    LoL. really? I didn't even bother checking the Armory. That's the point I was making earlier. You can size up a player by first inspecting (better than ilevel 251 T10 gear, decent chance they're ok); second by looking at what titles/mounts they have; third by looking at dates of achievements, especially things that can't be obtained anymore.
    Last edited by belfpala; 2010-10-25 at 08:30 AM.

  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by Netherwolf View Post
    As for "why should non-raiding players get the same gear as raiders": Because running around in gear from heroics is only *so* much fun. They have also reached the level cap, they also want to progress their character beyond that kind of gear.
    Then they should do raiding, and not get "new" tier for themselves through raiding SAME content they did since they hit lvl85 every new raid zone comes out. Same content = Wearing same gear.

  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by Rapti View Post
    Then they should do raiding, and not get "new" tier for themselves through raiding SAME content they did since they hit lvl85 every new raid zone comes out. Same content = Wearing same gear.
    Or, Blizzard should make different armor sets for ilevel 251 and higher versions of the same set. This argument is nothing different from what happened at the beginning of Wrath when people noticed that DK starter sets were the same models you got from questing in Northrend.

    It's fine, I agree, there should be more armor models. Don't bother bringing it up as a "radier" versus "casual" issue though, because some of us "casuals" are better raiders than the OP (and the person I'm replying to) will ever be.

  8. #68
    Field Marshal Viv's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TehSklatt View Post
    as ive said in many posts before this one, but i will say again, im not better than anyone im not the best raider, never said i was. what i did say was im a raider, and i raid for my gear, why should it be any different for anyone else? see i only have like 16 days on my character at level 80, because i just newly restarted this game, which would explain the achieves =P. now you might understand why i would ask these questions, the last time i played this game was when t6 was the shit, and i know they wasnt handing that out, you either raided and got it, or didnt.
    By saying that you believe because you are a 'raider' (for an extremely short period of time, at that) you should have gear that distinguishes you from 'casuals' - you are inherently saying that you believe you are in some way superior and the appearance of your avatar should reflect that. And what I'm telling you is that 'casuals' can raid too, and clear more content than you with less time put in and they deserve what they have too. Also, do remember that at the end of BC, just as at the end of LK, content got nerfed and gear became more readily available. BoJs from heroics could get you T6 level items from the vendors outside of Sunwell - attunements to BT and Hyjal were removed, allowing many guilds and people previously unable to enter to begin farming the bosses there and on better servers even pugging the content. Candycoat your memories all you want, but it's the same scenario here - despite the difference in the scale of it from one expansion to another.

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by belfpala View Post
    The way you post, you wouldn't have made the LoL-cut in my guild. Axed, in other words, no matter what gear you have. Gudbie!

    Hints:
    Try having a point.
    Try sentences and paragraphs.
    Try capitalization.
    Try punctuation.
    Try announcing that English isn't your first language if it happens not to be, and try explaining how that won't make you lag behind in an English-speaking guild (or forum).
    english is my first language, i feel that if you can look at my post and get the general gist of it, i did well enough. seeing as how youve been replying to my posts im guessing you do get the general gist of it.
    is this a guild app? how is that relevant?
    the point of the post was clearly stated at the end of the post that you quoted lol "thats the whole point of the thread, why get raid gear, for not raiding lol"
    i went over some things from your previous posts, and added them in there.

  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by TehSklatt View Post
    i posted this somewhere else here, but decided i actually wanted to hear some answers so lemme know what yall think

    Look I'm not trying to troll anyone, but I'm a raider, that's what i do, its the only thing fun in this game to me. I'm trying to understand it from the point of view, of someone who doesn't raid but still wants raiding gear.
    you raid to get gear, no matter what anyone says that's the underlying reason for being there, its your incentive, so why should raid gear be available to people who don't raid. i also understand that Blizz doesn't care about raiders, only money so they will continue to give away free gear.
    I like to stand out, when you see me on my server, you know i raid, you can tell i know what I'm doing by the gear I'm wearing. you heroics runners say you deserve the gear we are wearing but don't we deserve something to ourselves?

    looking for honest answers here no jk
    -tehsklatt
    I'm a little different as in that I raid to see (experience) the encounters, and gear is the process that makes that happen. So getting "easy" gear only saves me the trouble of having to grind it out in a harder fasion by raiding every week for months.


    On the other hand, I kinda wish it was hard to get.. Hate seeing someone with a 5.5+ gs (i know i said gs) only able to do 3-5k dps in a full 25 man raid....

    p.s Winning meters is fun too.
    Kinda torn myself.

  11. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by TehSklatt View Post
    english is my first language, i feel that if you can look at my post and get the general gist of it, i did well enough. seeing as how youve been replying to my posts im guessing you do get the general gist of it.
    is this a guild app? how is that relevant?
    the point of the post was clearly stated at the end of the post that you quoted lol "thats the whole point of the thread, why get raid gear, for not raiding lol"
    i went over some things from your previous posts, and added them in there.
    I'm suggesting that people like me might be more sympathetic to your point if you presented it more coherently and more cogently. I know this is the internet, but we do have limits.

  12. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by Rapti View Post
    Then they should do raiding, and not get "new" tier for themselves through raiding SAME content they did since they hit lvl85 every new raid zone comes out. Same content = Wearing same gear.
    Did you read my whole post? Because then you should have seen the part about there being more to do in the game besides raiding. And why not give people *some* gear for making questing and soloing stuff easier? I mean, it's not they are able to get full <insert current ilevel here> from just heroics and JP. You actually have to run the content to get full <insert current ilevel here> gear when you are in that content.

    I play the game for raiding, and I play with others that do too. But I still respect players that doesn't play for that reason and I see no reason to punish them for not wanting to raid. I also want raid encounters to be hard so it actually takes some effort to get through on normal so they have to work for getting full T11. But a few pieces of gear that takes them weeks to farm outside raids doesn't hurt too much, does it? =)

  13. #73
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    Oh, stop it allready. Im so tired of threads like this...

    You are not special, believe me. Showing off gear in dalaran may sound cool in theory, but those level 13 new players are the only ones caring. Raiding gear is for future raids, sad, but true. Thats the purpose of raiding, if the only thing you think about in raids, is gear.

    For me, loot is a bonus.

    Stop the whining. If you are a true raider, other players gear should mean NOTHING for you.

  14. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by Viv View Post
    By saying that you believe because you are a 'raider' (for an extremely short period of time, at that) you should have gear that distinguishes you from 'casuals' - you are inherently saying that you believe you are in some way superior and the appearance of your avatar should reflect that. And what I'm telling you is that 'casuals' can raid too, and clear more content than you with less time put in and they deserve what they have too. Also, do remember that at the end of BC, just as at the end of LK, content got nerfed and gear became more readily available. BoJs from heroics could get you T6 level items from the vendors outside of Sunwell - attunements to BT and Hyjal were removed, allowing many guilds and people previously unable to enter to begin farming the bosses there and on better servers even pugging the content. Candycoat your memories all you want, but it's the same scenario here - despite the difference in the scale of it from one expansion to another.
    your casual definition and mine differ, when i say casual i mean people who Dont raid, they dont enjoy it/rather pvp/dont have time/ect. but for some reason they still feel entitled to raid gear? thats what gets me, if your raiding get your gear on booboo.

    ---------- Post added 2010-10-25 at 08:46 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by s1ppr View Post
    Oh, stop it allready. Im so tired of threads like this...

    You are not special, believe me. Showing off gear in dalaran may sound cool in theory, but those level 13 new players are the only ones caring. Raiding gear is for future raids, sad, but true. Thats the purpose of raiding, if the only thing you think about in raids, is gear.

    For me, loot is a bonus.

    Stop the whining. If you are a true raider, other players gear should mean NOTHING for you.
    you say this like your view is the only one, honestly raid gear is why i like this game, i like to collect the sets, its fun to run around dal in full t4/t5/t6 just like its fun for yall to ride your epic mounts, diff people diff play styles.

    ---------- Post added 2010-10-25 at 08:51 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by belfpala View Post
    I'm suggesting that people like me might be more sympathetic to your point if you presented it more coherently and more cogently. I know this is the internet, but we do have limits.
    sorry im not good at quickly putting together my thoughts in ink. i try to get the general idea of what im thinking out there. theres no real argument here to be won/fought blizz is gonna do whatevs anyways. no one is right or wrong its just opinions, thought it would be cool to see what others think, because for some reason when i think about non raiders demanding raid gear, that just sounds a little off lol.

  15. #75
    Field Marshal Viv's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TehSklatt View Post
    your casual definition and mine differ, when i say casual i mean people who Dont raid, they dont enjoy it/rather pvp/dont have time/ect. but for some reason they still feel entitled to raid gear? thats what gets me, if your raiding get your gear on booboo.
    And you know they don't raid... how? You know they're not alts of people who raid... how? Personally, I have 8 80s and no desire to raid on each one weekly (and some of them not at all) - but I'm currently farming their JP in heroics to upgrade their gear for Cataclysm. That's what the end of an expansion is for. For all you know, you're seeing toons similar to my unloved alts and assuming they're just 'non-raiders' (I'm not going to use the term 'casual', since you clearly have the two confused).

  16. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by TehSklatt View Post
    your casual definition and mine differ, when i say casual i mean people who Dont raid, they dont enjoy it/rather pvp/dont have time/ect. but for some reason they still feel entitled to raid gear? thats what gets me, if your raiding get your gear on booboo.
    Nah, Casual in this contest means: occurring from time to time; "casual employment"; "a casual correspondence with a former teacher"; "an occasional worker".

    They are people who show up "casually".

    Some of them are in good guilds because of prior behavior, though usually not in the main raid spots. Some of them aren't in good guilds. You can't conflate "casual" with non-raider.

    This argument is primarily about ilevel 251 looking the same as gear obtained in ICC. That's it. And as I've previously mentioned, it's an argument that's been going on for a very long time, with level 58 DK blues looking the same as level 70+ quest rewards.
    Last edited by belfpala; 2010-10-25 at 08:55 AM.

  17. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by TehSklatt View Post
    your casual definition and mine differ, when i say casual i mean people who Dont raid, they dont enjoy it/rather pvp/dont have time/ect. but for some reason they still feel entitled to raid gear? thats what gets me, if your raiding get your gear on booboo.
    Then please refer to them as something besides casuals if you don't want to be flamed to death. The non-raiding population are not casuals. I know many good casuals in top guilds on their respective servers that are decked out in full 277 now. So casuals raid. Maybe not 4/5 days or whatever, but they are there and gets dragged along on raids now and then if they meet the standards of the guild (or just are dragged through because some dps > no dps). So please call them non-raiders or something else, but they are not "casuals".

    And it literally takes (or at least took, but who cares this close to cataclysm) weeks to farm gear completely outside of raiding. I don't see your point that they can run around in a mix of 200/213/226/245/251 items? I guess the icc heroics might remove some of those, but it's going to be a mix and not full 264 for doing things outside of raiding.

  18. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by Viv View Post
    And you know they don't raid... how? You know they're not alts of people who raid... how? Personally, I have 8 80s and no desire to raid on each one weekly (and some of them not at all) - but I'm currently farming their JP in heroics to upgrade their gear for Cataclysm. That's what the end of an expansion is for. For all you know, you're seeing toons similar to my unloved alts and assuming they're just 'non-raiders' (I'm not going to use the term 'casual', since you clearly have the two confused).
    i know because ive guilded with them in the past, many of them. people that play this game for leveling, or questing, crafting and ah runners. if thats what you wanna do thats cool, but if you dont want to raid, there should be no question here, you dont get raid gear

  19. #79
    Nothing wrong with being a casual WoW-player. Come cata it might not take you as far, and people will have to get used to it.

    Hardcore raiders should stop qqing about this, though. it gets old. show off your epeen with a title and mount.
    Secure accounts ftw!!
    Quote Originally Posted by Clempson View Post
    "KING VARIAN, DEATHWING HAS DESTROYED HALF OF STORMWIND, WHAT DO WE DO!?"

    "Build a statue of your king."

  20. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by Netherwolf View Post
    Then please refer to them as something besides casuals if you don't want to be flamed to death. The non-raiding population are not casuals. I know many good casuals in top guilds on their respective servers that are decked out in full 277 now. So casuals raid. Maybe not 4/5 days or whatever, but they are there and gets dragged along on raids now and then if they meet the standards of the guild (or just are dragged through because some dps > no dps). So please call them non-raiders or something else, but they are not "casuals".

    And it literally takes (or at least took, but who cares this close to cataclysm) weeks to farm gear completely outside of raiding. I don't see your point that they can run around in a mix of 200/213/226/245/251 items? I guess the icc heroics might remove some of those, but it's going to be a mix and not full 264 for doing things outside of raiding.
    its a word that can be used in different ways, and i could be wrong but i dont think its defined as a person who plays wow but kinda raids kinda doesnt, mabey to you but not to me so really it would be meaningless trolling to flame me lol

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