A prayer for the Cataclysm dungeon finder

[Omedon]

“God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference.”

-Reinhold Niebuhr

Now, I'm not a religous man by any stretch of mind, but this was just the perfect line to start this entry. This is a famous prayer used in many applications, including alcoholics anonymous. Well if it's good enough for such a life altering and positive organization as A.A., it's good enough for a bunch of loot crazy WoW players.

Very soon, the dungeon finder's default setting of "need before greed" will once again determine the pace of many players' gearing up. Ya-ya, I know, "no one in their right mind is touching the dungeon finder for the first X number of weeks/months of Cataclysm", but as much as that hyberbole seems to to be commonplace here and there, we all know that curiosity will get the better of many of us on a lonely night when no one in the guild feels like instancing. This post, this reminder/primer, is for those times.

There are (on one axis, anyway) two schools of thought with loot allocation. The first is the old school, dating back before dual spec, which is actually its most important detail. The old school dictates that the role you are playing RIGHT NOW is the only role that matters when it comes to rolling on loot. The tank rolls on tank gear, the healer rolls on healer gear, it's cut and dry and simple... in a world without dual spec.

The new school accepts the reality of dual spec, and expects pretty much every roll to be contested, if there's anyone in the group that could potentially need the same gear in any potential spec. New school'ers go into the instance knowing they may have two specs to feed, and so, potentially, does everyone else, and that the cross-server need before greed is built around this reality.

In case it wasn't obvious in how I stated things, I am very firmly, both feet, on the new school side of the line.

Defenders of the old school will often play the "morality" card. I'd like to consider myself a very moral person, so let's analyze that. Defenders of the old school will claim that (to distill a zillion ways of phrasing it down to a simple statement) "if you were a good person, you would pass for me". Here's the problem with that: I don't know you from Adam, I also don't know the rest of a random PUG group from Adam. The agreement to stick to the oldschool needs to be consistent and enforced to be fair at all. My passing, whether morally or practically motivated, deserves the same consideration in kind, and so on and so on. Asking for the "consideration" to pass when you cannot offer the certainty that the favour will be returned is straight up, hands down, pure selfishness, and not at all morally sound. I defy and challenge anyone to dispute this. This is where we go back to the prayer. I can't control or change what you, or the other people in the group choose to click, so we intelligently default to acknowledging the things we cannot change, those being the loot setting, as well as how the other people will react to them. We first attain this serenity, it is the most important step.

Next we look to attaining the courage to change the things we can. We can work, day by day, to spread acceptance of the new school. We can be positive, informative, uplifting. I intend to add to my friendly "instance opening" macro the disclaimer "please roll for anything you need for either spec, as that's what we will be doing" (I always queue with at least two people ). I'm not commanding anyone, because I have no right to control them, I am not asking for change that I have no right to enact from the hardcoded reality, I am simply informing people "this is what I will be doing". To be honest, I even consider this "above and beyond", for, as I've said every time the WoW insider "drama mamas" bring this topic up, the conversation is hardcoded, discussing it won't change that, and this is true. This is me enacting the courage to change what I can: how I approach the new school I believe in, by spreading it in ways that aren't invasive or demanding... I'm just saying "I'm doing this, so if you want a perceivedly fair shake, you might want to as well."

Finally, we gain the wisdom to know the difference. We cannot change the loot setting, we cannot force people to pass and thus stick to the outdated old school. We CAN choose to stick to the new school, accept it as part of the time sink of the gearing up process, and plan around that. We can change how we approach this hardcoded reality, and be at peace with the idea that yes, it may take longer to gear up, but that's intended, that's the allure of the game. The game becomes very boring very fast if we get everything we want on the first day.

The first thing I do at every "currency advancing gear reset" is look at the slots I can fill via currency, then look at the remaining slots. Those remaining slots are my RNG goals, because the rest is "guaranteed loot". That's my method, maybe you have your own, but whatever it is, remember that asking for control over the things you purposely have none over is not going to work. Get with the new school, get with the serenity, the courage, and the wisdom, or don't click the green eye.

See you in queue!

Thank you for reading

Edit: I have made my final comments on this thread after four pages of discussion, you can skip to them here:

http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...05#post9236505

[Deleted]

<wall of text> = "In LFD, I need for offspec". With some religious overtone or something...

Anyway, if you're partying with total strangers you would be dumb to do otherwise, especially since if you're non-cloth wearer and therefore are unable to roll on anything lower than your highest armor type even if it would be an upgrade. The only reason people largely do not do that now is because HC gear is so quickly overgeared.

At worst, someone could really moan and turns out that it would be a larger upgrade for them in their instance/main spec (assuming you are able to inspect them these days, lol) so you just trade it with them for zero cost. If you don't roll, you just lose out regardless every single time for the countless dungeon runs you will be running.

[tyden49]

so sum it up for me in two sentences what is this guy talking about?

[Yaushee]

so sum it up for me in two sentences what is this guy talking about?

READING IS HARD.
This is by no means a "wall of text". It's organized, got punctuation, and paragraphs.

And I disagree with you OP, I'm still an old-school-looter I only roll for offspec if nobody rolls for their prime spec. And if I may promote a little and useful addon for that... NeedyGreedy allows you to quickly view rolls (combine with Fortress for optimum use).

[ripponesan]

making thoughts about 5 man instance loot?? Come on get a REAL subject.

[Vetis]

just a pretentious and self righteous attempt at justifying acting like a selfish moron but using sentences to make it seem reasonable because "other people might be as big a tool as me" basically.

You do not gain moral ground by reducing yourself to the lowest denomination of behaviour.

[Count Zero]

Needing for offspec precludes the possibility the other people would have returned the favor in kind should you adhere to the oldschool mentality.

I only automatically roll need on items for the spec I'm playing in that lfd pug. If it's for my offspec and no one else rolls need, I ask if it's cool with everyone if I roll for offspec.

I don't care if I'm adhering to oldschool while others are adhering to newschool. Like you say, accept what you can't change, change what you can. You say you automatically roll need for offspec, because you can't trust others to adhere to oldschool. What if you and I were in a dungeon, and the first thing that drops is OS for you but MS for me and you roll need on it ... then the second thing that drops is OS for me but MS for you, but I pass on it, even after you'd rolled need for an OS item ? What if the first item that drops is OS for me / MS for you, and I pass ? Does that not at all challenge your paradigm ? Because that shatters your whole notion of not being able to trust. To continue to roll need for your OS after I'd displayed the good faith effort of adhering to oldschool means the selfishness you decry is what you, yourself, are displaying.

I think more people would do well to take things on a case-by-case basis. You seem to have a rigid, inflexible system based solely on inability to trust -- although, honestly, I believe that's just the facade you place on your greed. Not sure if you really believe what you say. If you're trying to convince us or yourself. Or maybe you're just trolling. Either way, I still believe what I believe.

[TehSklatt]

There are (on one axis, anyway) two schools of thought with loot allocation. The first is the old school, dating back before dual spec, which is actually its most important detail. The old school dictates that the role you are playing RIGHT NOW is the only role that matters when it comes to rolling on loot. The tank rolls on tank gear, the healer rolls on healer gear, it's cut and dry and simple... in a world without dual spec.

The new school accepts the reality of dual spec, and expects pretty much every roll to be contested, if there's anyone in the group that could potentially need the same gear in any potential spec. New school'ers go into the instance knowing they may have two specs to feed, and so, potentially, does everyone else, and that the cross-server need before greed is built around this reality.

why not think of it as 1 spec still, cause there is many classes that have no offspec. its really a group to group basis, but i can tell you if im running on my warlock, and some healing priest ninjas something for his sidespec, ill be rolling need on every piece of cloth that drops regardless of whether i need it or not. you get treated how you treat others, works the same in LFD...
on another note, a rolling addon? how much simpler can it get. the game already tells you what everyone rolled lol

[beingmused]

If you want to gear up your offspec, then you should have to actually run as your offspec. It is not that difficult.

Aka, hybrids already have plenty of advantages, you shouldn't add the advantage of getting priority on more rolls than anyone else.

[Chaltione]

I'm old school, and if someone rolls need for offspec, I vote kick them. If the others don't agree, I leave the groupd and wait around 10 seconds for a new group... Enjoy the wait for a new tank!

(I do use Xloot Group to show me the roll choices, and if I see 4 greeds, I state that my need is for offspec and then click need)

[redsunrising15]

I started playing around the time duel-spec came out, and I still only roll need on gear that is an upgrade in my respective roll. Occasionally I'll see a piece of loot I need for offspec, and if nobody else needs it, I ask first, and then need if they say yes.

[Biofalcon]

"My passing, whether morally or practically motivated, deserves the same consideration in kind, and so on and so on. Asking for the "consideration" to pass when you cannot offer the certainty that the favour will be returned is straight up, hands down, pure selfishness, and not at all morally sound. I defy and challenge anyone to dispute this."

I stick to what you call "old school", not because i expect everyone to do the same thing, but because I think it is the right thing to do. I know sometimes I will get rolled against in tank loot I need when I am tanking. If I loose the roll I'll ask the winner to trade the loot. If he doesn't want to, well it's his problem. I just continue the instance. This is one way of spreading the "old school", by example. Blizzard can implement whichever loot system they want, it will always be up to the players to do what they think is right.

[Tholl]

I am part of the old school. (Even in cross realm randoms)

Example.

I was in BRD city run on my Pally as dps. There was a warrior tank and a decent speed 1 hander drops from the dwarven chest boss. I, being a polite player, ask if it is ok for me to roll Need on it for offspec. The tank says that he minds and I in turn don't bother to roll. (I know I am running as dps after all).

We get to the last boss and drop him. The trinket drops that has a chance on hit of giving you an extra melee swing. SWEET a DPS trinket!

The tank of course rolls need, and after everyone in the group tells him that he is a tank and that we all passed on his gear for him he promptly leaves group after winning said item.

Needless to say I have a list of players by my computer that I will be vote-kicking from future groups if I ever run into them again.

[Siight]

Why not just ask at the beginning of the group whether it is alright to roll need on off spec?

Many times even when an item comes up, people generally ask if anyone minds them needing on the item before doing so. Most are more than kind to say go ahead, unless someone is rolling for it on their current spec.

[Elica]

Needing for offspec precludes the possibility the other people would have returned the favor in kind should you adhere to the oldschool mentality.

I only automatically roll need on items for the spec I'm playing in that lfd pug. If it's for my offspec and no one else rolls need, I ask if it's cool with everyone if I roll for offspec.

I don't care if I'm adhering to oldschool while others are adhering to newschool. Like you say, accept what you can't change, change what you can. You say you automatically roll need for offspec, because you can't trust others to adhere to oldschool. What if you and I were in a dungeon, and the first thing that drops is OS for you but MS for me and you roll need on it ... then the second thing that drops is OS for me but MS for you, but I pass on it, even after you'd rolled need for an OS item ? What if the first item that drops is OS for me / MS for you, and I pass ? Does that not at all challenge your paradigm ? Because that shatters your whole notion of not being able to trust. To continue to roll need for your OS after I'd displayed the good faith effort of adhering to oldschool means the selfishness you decry is what you, yourself, are displaying.

I think more people would do well to take things on a case-by-case basis. You seem to have a rigid, inflexible system based solely on inability to trust -- although, honestly, I believe that's just the facade you place on your greed. Not sure if you really believe what you say. If you're trying to convince us or yourself. Or maybe you're just trolling. Either way, I still believe what I believe.

I would thumb up your post if I could. Having grinded many thousand hours alone in PuGs, due to friends only doing PVP, I still play by the "old" rules. I will go very far to defend these old rules during instance runs, because I believe it's the right thing to do. I find the "new" rules of shoot the other guys, before they can shoot you, uncivilized. Yes it might seem silly to preach moral values to completely random people, but these moral values are a part of what defines me as a person, and I can't and won't change that while playing WoW.

Having seen OPs quote, I feel I must respond with another quote: "Do not to your neighbor what you would take ill from him." -Pittacus of Mytilene (c. 640–568 BCE) (source http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Golden_Rule )

As you can see, these "old" rules might be older than you think.

[Dawnseven]

I'm pretty much old school. I think if you're tanking an instance then you get priority on tank loot over the guy that is DPSing but has a tanking off spec. If the tank doesn't need the item, then anyone that can use it can roll need.

I'm admittedly a care bear and used to only need on stuff I really, really needed and I would greed on really minor upgrades or stuff where it was really a sideways move (identical to something I had except that it had +crit instead of +haste and I could go either way). The option to DE cured me of that though. Most times when I felt nice and passed on a minor upgrade to someone else I'd see them loot dust or essences instead. Doh!

[Omedon]

Again, the major counter to the inevitable (and predicted) oldschool morality card is to break it down to the expectation to step outside "the rules" as the game has defined them in order to shorten someone else's time sink.

Let me be clear: as soon as the game's settings are tightened up to a point that current spec matters, I (and anyone else of the "new school") will of course, as the new school does now, follow those rules without question.

The thing is, as easy a fix as that would be, as trivial and simple as it would be to put that setting in, after over a year with the dungeon finder, after many patches and mini patches, even after being asked point blank at Blizzcon, it is the expressed, functional intent for the DF to gear the character, not the spec, and this makes perfect sense, and why?...

Well, for one, "pressure roles".

Guilds should be able to cultivate tanks and healers (utilizing those tanks and healers' own time, at worst case) without subjecting those tanks and healers to random PUGs. The ability to tank and or heal should not require the thick skin to do so for a PUG. This is where their DPS spec comes in. Anyone here who argues that PUG tanking/healing is the same as doing so for friends has my pity for their complete lack of perspective... or for their guild who displays no difference from PUG tanking/healing *shudder*. The "you should have to play that role to gear it" mentality is as cold and blind as the average PUG.

Again, I must re-tterate, when you can't change the settings, discussion and "permission" are moot, the conversation is hardcoded. Informing (at one's discretion, again, one can't control whether you do that either) is the most you can ask for or expect.

---------- Post added 2010-10-25 at 06:38 PM ----------

making thoughts about 5 man instance loot?? Come on get a REAL subject.

Also, please do share your wisdom on how you plan to get to your heroic deathwing kill without setting foot in a 5-man.

[Elica]

Again, I must re-tterate, when you can't change the settings, discussion and "permission" are moot, the conversation is hardcoded. Informing (at one's discretion, again, one can't control whether you do that either) is the most you can ask for or expect.

The fact that you have the option to screw someone else over, does not mean it is your only option. As "outdated" it might seem to mix morality and IRL values with a game world, it is what defines us as civilized humans. You argue that anyone can use the "dual spec" argument to get items which they might not use, or will use much less than the ones they're outrolling. By rolling for an item for your current spec, you indicate that you are in fact going to make use of said item. If anything is at fault, it is the way character info is displayed during inspections. It could show both specs, and perhaps even the default gear associated with each spec.

[Omedon]

If anything is at fault, it is the way character info is displayed during inspections. It could show both specs, and perhaps even the default gear associated with each spec.

I would welcome this change, as I'd have nothing to hide.

[Purenight]

To the OP awesome awesome could not have said better myself. I am reminded though that most of the people that do not use this train of thought are well, not people that use forums such as these. Most of the people that I have run into almost always follow the "old school" way. You DO get the ones that are in say 264/277 gear that roll need on a blue wep only because it is worth 20g and then do not care of the healer or dps needed it for their offspec. " Do not worry about the things that are out of your scope of control, instead focus on the things that you can control " -Keith Glassmiher ( My former coach, though I know it has been said many of times its a great quote to live by )

Pure