Boneshield worth it?

[Shiira]

Its frightening how ppl can come here and say as a tank a 20% dmg reduction talent on a 1 min cooldown isn't worth 1 talent point and can still make it sound as if they would be serious about it.

Threads like this are why we have the "Why do people think DKs can't tank?" thread.

[Deleted]

Since we have even less talents than ever a 1 point talent should be extremely beneficial. This talent simply is not worth a talent point. This talent is the DKs lightwell. This talent should've stayed in Unholy. This talent is a joke, it might be good for PVP. But PVP is a joke. PVP as Blood is a farce.

The rune that goes into making this could be half of a much need Deathstrike which will not only heal damage but also give me a nice consistent and reliable absorption effect.

The sad thing is that if you look at the big picture and the long run, this talent really just becomes even more lackluster than before. But if you're the kind of person who micomanages and thinks 3 itty bitty baby bones that soak up a pathetic amount of damage in the first 4 seconds of combat is worth passing up genuinely good and valuable talents then by all means. Go bananas.

This is one of those clingers that was nerfed into irrelevance but Blizzard didn't have the balls to remove it completely so they put it in the wrong talent tree to confuse the weak and addled minded.

[sarcasm]AKA Virulence 2.0.

Lol.[/sarcasm]

[Wingwraith]

But if you're the kind of person who micromanages and thinks 3 itty bitty baby bones that soak up a pathetic amount of damage in the first 4 seconds of combat is worth passing up genuinely good and valuable talents then by all means. Go bananas.

Please enlighten us as to what our "genuinely good and valuable talent" alternative options are.

[Albert the fish]

personally i am actually against you here Alco.

is it great? no, it's not, but mostDK cooldowns are not great, we're built to rotate them and use them as a total package, not in one off moments like warrior cooldowns.

also i can't think of a better place to put that point.
i'm getting BoneShield for my tank spec, might even glyph it

[ramennoodleking]

I'm not entirely sure why you are arguing about Bone Shield. If you are so worried about getting every possible death strike in then save blood tap for boneshield. "what about rune tap," you say? Save a blood rune. Besides, some death strikes will inevitably result in overhealing, either by your own heal or by healers overcompensating. Bone shield, on the other hand, is highly effective in terms
Of effective health. There's no reason you'd have to lose out on death strikes. There's really not much of an argument here

[Rugz]

And it can also be a waste of an Unholy Rune since you just lost out on a potential Death Strike - Blood Shield if the BS could have provided a bigger boost.

I hope you know that RE procs sleeper runes so you dont actually lose anything refreshing BS, unless you're planning on proccing up a FU pair, and at 85 you dont have your 4T10 so what else will you use BT on?

[Deleted]

The Glyph is nice, /agree there. The run-speed is good, although you only get about 50% effect if you use Tuskarr's Vitality

Would be nice if Unholy presence's Run-speed was incorporated into a Talent, say Imp. Blood pres, Oaph or even baseline. I mean sure Rets gotta talent it, but then again they lost their "Virulence" talents for passive bonus versions which provide 8% spell hit instead of our 6%.

Rune Tap uses a Blood Rune, you can also macro it and align it's cooldown with Blood Tap, you can't do the same for Bone Shield without skipping Imp. Blood Tap which means less Rune Taps, plus Death Strike costs a Frost and Unholy, not a Blood. Losing a Heart Strike isn't the same as losing DS Healing + BS re-fresh. The beauty of Rune Tap is that you press it, its not an auto-proc, so if it over-heals its your fault, because you just didn't use it right.

Ok say you get a random Unholy Rune once per minute at just the right time to re-fresh Bone Shield. Then you press Rune Strike once more, oh, random Frost Rune. Ta-da, you just lost a Death Strike since you went for Bone Shield. Comprende?

@Rugs. Oh idk. I guess Rune Tap magically had it's rune cost removed overnight right?

[Rugz]

@Rugs. Oh idk. I guess Rune Tap magically had it's rune cost removed overnight right?

Irrelevant, Death strike and Bone Shield use F and U runes, Rune Tap uses a B rune so the interaction between DS and BS doesn't affect RT at all.

[underdogba]

Bone Shield is simply analogous to Divine Protection and Shield Block now.

[Jeleh]

Keep seeing these threads pop up and all it says to me is there are a lot of bad deathknights around. Bone shield is no longer the sort of thing you try to keep up constantly, it is a cooldown, a very short one, that can reduce all damage, magic or physical. It has an internal cooldown which makes it very strong in aoe situations or any situation where you are taking a lot of damage from different sources.

If you believe bone shield is not a decent cooldown go a different tanking class, it's a cooldown, use it like one rather than a buff.

[Deleted]

Irrelevant, Death strike and Bone Shield use F and U runes, Rune Tap uses a B rune so the interaction between DS and BS doesn't affect RT at all.

Uh. You just asked where else would you spend Blood Tap, so I replied............................

---------- Post added 2010-10-25 at 10:06 PM ----------

Keep seeing these threads pop up and all it says to me is there are a lot of bad deathknights around. Bone shield is no longer the sort of thing you try to keep up constantly, it is a cooldown, a very short one, that can reduce all damage, magic or physical. It has an internal cooldown which makes it very strong in aoe situations or any situation where you are taking a lot of damage from different sources.

If you believe bone shield is not a decent cooldown go a different tanking class, it's a cooldown, use it like one rather than a buff.

So people that don't like Bone Shield because its weak, expensive and takes up a GCD for a small uptime extended by Avoidance that's going to get super-nerfed are "Bad Death Knights." What about the people that hate say... Virulence still being a Talent? You going to call them bad if you like the talent? "Bad, evil" etc is nothing more than a point of view.

[Rugz]

Uh. You just asked where else would you spend Blood Tap, so I replied............................

Ok so you use BT on a RT, that means you don't have it free to hit an extra Death Strike if you proc a F or U rune off RE, that means when you get a U rune off of empowerment you don't have much reason not to refresh BS.

[Deleted]

It also means that if you go say RS (RE Unholy) - BS - RS (RE Frost) you just lost out on a Death Strike, like I pointed out above and was totally ignored apparently.

[Shiira]

edit:
I need to not try to theorycraft while half asleep, removed.

[Deleted]

4 seconds, not 8 minimum. Let's stop including RNG Avoidance that may or may not be present.

GoBS no longer increases duration, it provides run-speed. Sorry but you're kind of off on your math. Also, you went with baseline Mastery, 50% Absorb. If you add in Reforged Mastery etc it's a lot more.

[Jeleh]

So people that don't like Bone Shield because its weak, expensive and takes up a GCD for a small uptime extended by Avoidance that's going to get super-nerfed are "Bad Death Knights." What about the people that hate say... Virulence still being a Talent? You going to call them bad if you like the talent? "Bad, evil" etc is nothing more than a point of view.

If the people that hate virulence as a talent refuse to pick it up over less viable options, yes i will call them bad.

You dont like the way it works, you find it too short fair enough take that view. You go through the blood tree and pick up the tanking talents you are left with floater points, bone shield provides very good damage mitigation for 1 single talent point.

You dont like how it works with runes? your playing the wrong class, not to mention there are plenty of ways to couple said cooldown with blood tap, personally i believe that bone shield should be on a blood rune, i agree it's an annoyance that it can interfer with optimising deathstrikes, however it's one of those things you have to deal with, the game is interactive you need to decide if to use that cooldown or a blood shield is going to be worth more, say you deathstrike and you get a measly 10% heal as you happend to get some avoidance and shields and only took a small amount of damage, a deathstrike is going to put up a shield a lot less valuable than bone shield.

Your argument is on a basis that bone shield is a bad cooldown and that it has poor uptime, Ok so the uptime aint always fantastic, but it's a guarenteed 4 second damage reduction regardless, and that can only ever increase and it has a myriad of uses that can not be compared to other classes cooldowns.

Several other mechanics which make it very good, you can use it pre pull, pre taunt when there is no aoe incomming and it's ready for when you need it without loss of effectiveness.

If an attack is absorbed via something, lets say PW:S you still keep that charge, what other tanking cooldown provides that kind of benefit?


Take it at face value, 4 seconds minimum and can only improve from there.

Think on your feet, yes there are times when deathstrike is better that's part of the dynamics of the game you need to make decisions like this to optimize how well you play.

The problem is it is a situational ability, and as with all situational abilitys it's a lot easier to find the faults rather than the benefits. It takes a player of a higher standard to maxmise the use of such abilities.

It's not the best cooldown, it's a minor cooldown, however it has many many very good uses the mitigation is not that bad and it's for one point, there are a lot worse talents you are picking up for that 1 point.

You as a a blood dk tank took RPM and virulence over other talents? are you really struggling with aoe threat that you need that excess hit on BB? Hand of doom is a pretty epic choice over damage reduction too.

[Deleted]

What about how VB was on a Blood Rune cost for 3 years? People that didn't like that are bad too? Because I can tell you a very large majority of us didn't like it.

I don't have a problem with Runes, I like the Rune System (minus RE that turns DKs into whack-a-mole, anyway) and I find it fun to play, but keeping the rune cost on Bone Shield with this Rune System is just dumb and overly-expensive.

Its a guarantee of 4 seconds, not 6, 8, 10, 12, 15, 20, 30, whatever. FFS people, learn three things:
1. When calculating Bone Shield uptime, do not factor RNG Avoidance. It will not always be present, and that is a fact.
2. GoBS no longer provides an additional charge. It provides run-speed now.
3. The ICD starts when you lose the first bone, not when you apply bone shield so it goes 0.0 - 2.0 - 4.0 and BS is down (not factoring Avoidance).

You might get a weak Blood Shield, and you might get a strong one that provides more use than using Bone Shield, so again - Situational.

Hand of Doom is pvp, strictly pvp. I mean name one boss where you can actually silence him/her/it? Exactly. Don't waste points on something stupid. Virulence only helps with 2 abilities (for Blood) Death Coil which we soon won't be using due to Rune Strike change, and Icy Touch which Diseaseless Tanks don't even use.

RPM... Meh. Lol. I'd laugh at anyone that takes this. Total waste (For Blood obv).

[Jeleh]

Once again you are ignoring the inherent benefits that the cooldown provides which simply cannot be reproduced.

i corrected the 4 seconds it was an overlook i realised right after,

I said take it at face value, it's a minimum up time that can only ever increase.

How about arguing against some of the valid points i made?

Can be used pre pull/taunt without suffering loss of effectiveness
Absorbs do not lose charges
Guarenteed uptime of 4seconds can only scale upwards, shields likely to be one complete hit.

My previous post used your spec from the armoury link to base my arguments on, didn't realise people did blood pvp still.

The simple fact is although it is not a mind blowing cooldown it is not a terrible one either and to overlook it is folly. It costs one talent point which in retrospect there really is no better places you can put one point for a big tanking gain.

I do agree it needs some working to increase its benefit slightly, however degrading a tank cooldown to the point where you would simply not take it over no real gain elsewhere is a mistake. There are a lot of ways to make very good use of this cooldown that can save your life and make tanking generally easier. If used effectively it is a well placed single talent point.

The actual problem is not the cooldown itself, it's the ratio of cost versus mitigation, 1 rune cost is expensive and just futher increases the situational use of it.

[Wingwraith]

What about how VB was on a Blood Rune cost for 3 years? People that didn't like that are bad too? Because I can tell you a very large majority of us didn't like it.

Lets not get ahead of ourselves here... When VB cost a BR, people didn't like that it cost a BR and wanted the cost removed. It was still an awesome ability that everyone took. As opposed to BS now which cost a rune and it's only moderately good and/or situational.
I don't think that's a fare comparison.

[Deleted]

Lets not get ahead of ourselves here... When VB cost a BR, people didn't like that it cost a BR and wanted the cost removed. It was still an awesome ability that everyone took. As opposed to BS now which cost a rune and it's only moderately good and/or situational.
I don't think that's a fare comparison.

Fair enough.

@Jeleh Oh. I see now. I mis-understood the "you" part. No I don't have Rpm, that's my Tanking Spec, Unholy is my pvp spec. Armory is bugged and shows all sorts of whacky Talent Trees, highly in-accurate though. It doesn't even show Reforging or secondary profession. http://www.wowhead.com/talent#jcGr0crrusdZb Is the spec I'm currently using, and Bloodworms only because Epidemic is worthless for a Diseaseless Tank like me before Outbreak at 81. I'll just re-spec at some point before Cata launches, didn't want to leave those two points floating for nothing.

If you want to add in absorb a better example than pw:s would be our own absorb, BS. In a sense BS could increase BSh uptime, although by how much depends on how strong the shield itsself is. And of course if you can pair the two to have them up at the same time. If you use BT on RT you BSh then you get a DS good, if not eh.... You're kinda stuck (assuming you used ERW for DRW at some point earlier).