I didn't contradict myself. CPU is the single most important factor to framerate because it supports minimum framerate, which is directly tied to playability. If I put a fancy new SLI setup into my computer and go from an average framerate of 45 to an average framerate of 80, I don't gain much playability because the gains in average framerate are due to a higher maximum framerate, rather than a higher minimum framerate. If I have a crappy CPU and replace it and go from a minimum framerate of 15 to a minimum framerate of 30, then I've gained a great amount of playability. In turn, if I have a minimum framerate of 30 with either a Radeon 4850 or dual GTX 480s, why does the extra GPU power matter? Hence, GPU matters very little to the playability of a 25-man raid encounter.
I'm not sure how many different ways to say this.
You missed the point. One thing can bottle neck another. I know where my systems limits are and therefore make the best out of them. A CPU can be bottle necked by a GPU and visa versa. You can't get 35 FPS while in a 25 man raid with a i5 and a Intel GMA now can you? If you can then tell me why my laptop can't run WoW that great.
Yes, one component can bottleneck the other. The only time a GPU will bottleneck a CPU on framerate is if: 1) the video options are grossly overtuned for the GPU, or 2) the GPU is grossly out of line with the CPU (ie. current gen CPU, 4 generation old GPU). If someone's building a computer with a current generation CPU and multiple generations old GPU, they need to take a look at what they're doing, rather than complain about their framerate. [edit: Almost] any GPU within the last 2-3 generations will not bottleneck a CPU on minimum framerate.
Now you're avoiding the question. You can in fact get a desktop i5 with a Intel GMA built on graphics card. Here's another question then. Try an i5 with the Intel HD? Can it produce good FPS while raiding in a 25 man? Even say a Dell with an i5 that has the nVidia G310 which is a terrible GPU for 3d gaming but can do better than Intel. Will that machine be able to produce 35 FPS while doing a LK25 fight?
Let's put it this way to avoid more nitpicking:
- if you spend $50 for CPU and $50 for GPU, both are your bottleneck to gain speed in WoW
- if you spend $100 for CPU and $100 for GPU, you're already maxed out at graphics (without AA/AF) and CPU is the bottleneck
- if you spend $200 for CPU and $200 for GPU, you're maxed out in graphics with AA/AF, but CPU is still your bottleneck in raids
- if you spend $500 for CPU and $500 for GPU, you are still capped by CPU in raids, and can not rise shadows to ultra
See the point?
Also, Intel GMA is not gaming GPU, no matter what marketing bullshit Intel spews. It does not support even full DX9 hardware which is the reason why games like WoW are very cranky with it.
Never going to log into this garbage forum again as long as calling obvious troll obvious troll is the easiest way to get banned.
Trolling should be.
2. Yes, you don't like me. Keep trying to pin me to the wall on technicalities. I'm sure it'll help you make friends here.
3. A desktop i5 + Intel GMA still suffers from the fact that WoW fights with Intel integrated chipsets.
4. An i5 with a GeForce 310 (which appears to benchmark slightly lower than a 4570) may fall a fair number frames lower than 35 (has anyone been dumb enough to create this setup?). Again, who is building this system with a modern CPU and a rebrand of a 2 year old GPU that wasn't good 2 years ago? If you're just trying to take things to extremes to prove me wrong, then you're making yourself look desperate.
2. The fact of my personal opinion has nothing to do with this. You're proclaiming your opinion and I'm stating counters to it. Don't get so defensive since everything you've said could be countered right back.
3. You finally answered my question thus proving my point initially.
4. Dell Inspiron 580. Which is in reference to #1 thus any typical user who is not a computer tech or even has knowledge about computers other than to turn it on and install a program.
You're arguing semantics about those who built a computer with sub par gaming components and failing to realize that we live in a world where not everyone knows everything about computers. You need to get off your computer guru high horse and realize that you live in a world where people don't understand how programs work and why you need certain things to make them perform better. People who want a computer and know very little about them go to places like Walmart, Best Buy, Dell.com, and etc. They buy them and those people who work there don't always know what to tell them in order to get the most out of the machine. You and I however are a little more advanced than they are and know that to get more performance out of WoW we need a good video card, a good processor, an ample amount of RAM, and yes even a hard drive can help. An SSD will perform better than a tradition SATA will.
Also, to expound upon my personal opinion, that was left in private message and meant to stay there. This is exactly what I was talking about in the fact that you are publicizing things that should not be. Don't get mad that I know how to counter your arguments and pawn it off as I don't like you. Just accept it as someone knows probably as much as you do and get over yourself.
You need to understand that all I said was CPU > GPU for playability. This remains true until you pull in arguments of years old GPUs being used with current day CPUs in setups that are not gaming computers. Dell advertises their Alienware and XPS lines as gaming. Inspirons are not gaming computers.
Also, I publicized nothing. I did not state any detail of the PM chain. I will even stipulate that you never directly said you disliked me publicly or privately. It's an inference that I pulled from the fact that it seems every post since your ban expired has been a jab at me. If it's an incorrect inference, then I'm wrong, as I often can be. If it's a correct inference, then it's just that.
I accept that there are MANY, many people who know more about computers than I do. Anyone who thinks they are the pinnacle of their field and has nothing to learn from another person is obviously wrong. My point, however, still stands: For WoW, CPU is more important than GPU for maintaining minimum playable framerate.
the only difference you will notice with an SSD is load times, it wont increase your framerate by any noticeable amount.
also, you're just mad because he banned you once before and you're trying to now 'upset' his opinion by proving him wrong to publicly get back at him.
dell inspiron, despite being the correct, obscure specs listed above, is not a gaming system. i dont know why you are trying to pawn it off as one. no where on the website (yes, dell's website) does it say that the computer is meant for gaming
edit: hey look, i wrote the same thing as Cilraaz, I'm a fanboy now..Originally Posted by Dell
You said I don't like you. That has not shown what so ever in any post other than me countering things you said as if I was playing devils advocate against your statements. Which has no bearing on if I liked you or not. You put that out there not me.
I never disagreed with you saying WoW wasn't CPU demanding but without a good/proper GPU you're still going to suffer. Not everyone has knowledge of that or do they all have money to afford a good card. Keep in mind this is a broad spectrum of people from very poor to very rich.
Yes, those who think high and mighty of themselves do need to realize they are not. They also should not take offense when another person points out different variables that can make what they are saying not be 100% true. This stands for anything not just computers and is not a personal jab at you, Cilraaz. I for one can accept if someone has factual evidence that I am wrong then I will tell them I am wrong.
---------- Post added 2010-10-28 at 06:13 PM ----------
Not mad he banned me. The ban was justly done. How am I getting back at another person specifically when saying and countering their points with evidence that it can be countered. This would be no different if I were arguing points against you, Demon. It would be treated the same. He's taking offense to it as I don't care.
Dell Inspiron is an affordable computer that people can buy without shelling out a ton of money. Not everyone is rich are they? Also the quote of i3 and i5 is not true. i3 are dual core and not best for gaming but how many of you guys used a dual core until quad core came more readily available? Also are you saying that the i5 760 is not a good gaming processor? The i5 760 and i7 860 are the same processor except the i7 has HT. You mean WoW uses HT? That must be a new implement and undocumented feature no one knew of. Honestly what game takes advantage of HT? I really don't know of one so please let me know. Being honest here too, I've yet to run across a game that uses HT.
That went a bit off topic, but the point stands. I don't believe I've ever been bullheaded enough to stick behind a belief when proven wrong. vesseblah has proven me wrong, and I've accepted it (hell, probably multiple times, lol). None has proven me wrong, and I've accepted it. That's just two among more.
I'm not backing off of this one, though. In situations where people aren't pairing components that have no business together or using a non-gaming system like an Inspiron as a gaming system, the CPU will manage the minimum framerate. It's an established truth. Minimum research is needed to show you whether a GPU is garbage or not. The GeForce 310 that you mentioned earlier isn't even sold by NewEgg. For $40, you can get a Radeon 5450, which is above the point where a GPU will bottleneck you. It takes a very specific setup to be GPU bottlenecked, and those setups are almost uniformily not gaming setups.
You keep ignoring probably the most important thing I keep repeating. So I will specifically ask this directly to you. Is everyone knowledgeable about computers enough to know that a Dell Inspiron with an integrated nVidia G310 (why you couldn't find it on newegg) is not a gaming computer? Why do people buy those types of computers? Are people like you and I and probably a good chunk of the readers here exceptions to the rule? I would probably go to say you've never worked retail at a big box store like Best Buy and sold computers to anyone. You would know the answers to each of those questions and would have stopped arguing ages ago. However you're bullheaded and being stubborn to not accept that not everyone is like us and know something about computers.
Initially you said the GPU has relatively little reason FPS are what they are. If that were the case a nVidia G310 integrated card would suffice and give the user ample video processing. Even Blizzard has kept this game requiring older equipment as a minimal requirement. Wasn't WOTLK minimals just a P4? Not a Core 2 Duo or Core 2 Quad but just a P4? I might be wrong but I think even the video card requirements where just a 128MB Geforce or equivalent. Regardless to your belief that the game would perform better with a slight better card and a better processor. That doesn't make a bit of difference as the game was written to accommodated those running older equipment. I argued that GPU does help WoW despite it being a CPU demanding game. You argued it stating that it really didn't. I then argued you need to have a good balance and you turn the whole thing into a personal vendetta of me against you.
Can you not agree that without a decent GPU the game will suffer? It is CPU demanding but it also does require a good GPU to perform better as well.
If someone is in this forum, they're already ahead of Joe Blow who walks into Best Buy and says "gimme that one!". They're trying to get information. They probably know slightly more than your average no-knowledge computer buyer. If not, they're at least intelligent enough to look for the knowledge. This forum is a "destination location". People don't stumble in here (as can be shown by the fact that 90% of our posts are from the same handfuls of posters). They come in when they have specific issues or questions. That automatically raises the person a notch.
Also, specifically regarding the Inspiron argument. If someone buys them as a gaming system, they deserve the poor performance they get. Here is, straight from dell.com, the description of the block that includes the Inspiron line:
I see nothing related to gaming in that paragraph.Originally Posted by Dell.com
The game is CPU demanding. I never stated it was CPU exclusive. I'm not sure why you're riding this GeForce 310 train. You're talking about an integrated graphics chip (minor brain fart with the NewEgg thing earlier... see, I am willing to admit when I'm wrong). You're talking about systems that Dell sells as productivity systems (see above dell.com excerpt). All I argued was that CPU supported minimum framerate, while GPU supported maximum framerate. I never argued that the GPU was worthless. Obviously, parts have to not get in each others' way. In 95%+ of cases, the GPU doesn't get in the way of the CPU, but rather the other way around. Just like statistics, rare outliers are discarded. They're not used to modify the data (or in this case, statement).
Starting from that assumption GPU has relatively little to do with low FPS and upgrading CPU is better value for money, or in some cases best value is scrapping whole old computer and build new one up to date.
Never going to log into this garbage forum again as long as calling obvious troll obvious troll is the easiest way to get banned.
Trolling should be.
Getting you to agree that the system components have to compliment each other was pretty much the whole gist of what I was after. You can't have an awesome CPU with a terrible GPU (hense the G310 references) or visa versa. The whole system needs to be complimenting but not everyone can afford it. You can take that Dell Inspiron and upgrade components despite what Dell's website says and make that i5 be a 25 man raiding computer. It's possible with help. You did argue GPU held little relevance to though when I said it holds more relevance than you were giving it credit.
Don't take the fact that I said those components are gaming but those are readily available for "Joe Blow wannabe gamer" to go buy. My system is a self built with an EVGA P55, 4GB PC16000, i5 760 OC'd at 3.2Ghz with 2x GTS 250 OC'd video cards. Is it a beast? Nah but I can't afford a beast. All I do is play WoW and COD4 and it plays those great. Not everyone who is a gamer can afford a machine like mine so they buy those Dells and HPs from big box stores. Don't count those people as "rare outliners" either. They are for the most part a larger portion of the 12 million users who play WoW hence why the system requirements are so low. In fact you and I probably are a smaller portion of the statistical equation. No evidence to back that so I may be complete off. However out of the people I know in this area who play, it's a larger portion that know practically little to nothing about computers who enjoy playing but they are those who don't really raid either. Not everyone who plays WoW raids.
Read what vesseblah said.
Man, that guy just wouldn't give up Cilraaz...
Apperently he missed the part about how this topic has been mulled over probably too many times and he's somewhat alone on it.
After reading over the whole post, it seems like one thing he forgot to mention, and one thing you may have overlooked is that he put in a dedicated gpu in a computer and it improved the performance in WoW. I'm guessing what was in there before was an integrated. Of course that will improve the FPS... it would be improving the maximum FPS.
I noticed NO difference whatsoever in WoW when I upgraded from an 8600GTS to a GTX275, but when initially installed the GPU, of course I did. Integrated GPUs are never good, even for WoW... this will vary depending on the chipset of course and whether its Intel or AMD. When I noticed the most significant difference is when I upgraded my CPU from an AMD 4800x2 to an AMD 6400x2. 800mhz more on each core made a huge difference for WoW.
Bottom line that seemed to get a little out of hand is exactly what Cilraaz was repeating... CPU support min FPS, GPU supports max... pretty simple if you step back and read it.
I didn't say you said you could pair a good CPU with a bad GPU. However I was saying you can't as it will affect your minimal FPS. With that being said it refers to your CPU speed being majority while GPU being relatively little. Relatively little means next to nothing or in numerical terms it could translate to <10%. Which is false even as CPU demanding a 25 man raid is. A low end GPU with a high end CPU isn't going to provide optimal FPS as compared to a mid grade or higher with the same processor.
---------- Post added 2010-10-28 at 08:43 PM ----------