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  1. #21
    High Overlord Zookii's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cilraaz View Post
    Obviously if the GPU is lacking, it can hold back performance. In general, in WoW, CPU supports minimum framerate, while GPU supports maximum framerate. It's been discussed to death in this forum and has been accepted as generally true. An i7 920 with a GT 9600 will likely have nearly the same minimum framerate as an i7 920 with a GTX 460. The GTX 460, however, will most likely have a higher maximum, and therefore average, framerate. Minimum framerate is what determines playability. If you average 100fps, but dip to 5fps every time defile is cast (yes, not a valid "real world" scenario), the LK event would not be very playable for you.
    So what you just said contradicts you saying the game relies relatively little on the GPU. When in fact it relies on it quite a bit but not as much as CPU. In fact my system which is a i5 760 and using 2 GTS 250s. While in raids I droop downwards of 35 in fights like LK but outside raids in Dalaran I sit with 45-50 and other places well over 100. Unless my computer has a hiccup and the processor is trying to do something else, my FPS does not go below 35 during 25 man raids. Do I have a high end system? Not even close. Do I have my setting maxed on ultra? No but why would I? I make my system work for the components in it. I don't have a high end system yet I make sure I get the most out of it. I know my GPU and GPU limits so I know ultra would not work in my current situation. I use quite a few add-ons which will cause a CPU performance hits so I know to maximize my usage that I need to put my settings on high to very high and avoid ultra. In all honesty does having your system on the max graphics settings really matter though? My spell detail is set max so I don't stand in the fire while other things are on high. View distance is low which is the only thing set to low.

  2. #22
    Moderator Cilraaz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zookii View Post
    So what you just said contradicts you saying the game relies relatively little on the GPU. When in fact it relies on it quite a bit but not as much as CPU. In fact my system which is a i5 760 and using 2 GTS 250s. While in raids I droop downwards of 35 in fights like LK but outside raids in Dalaran I sit with 45-50 and other places well over 100. Unless my computer has a hiccup and the processor is trying to do something else, my FPS does not go below 35 during 25 man raids. Do I have a high end system? Not even close. Do I have my setting maxed on ultra? No but why would I? I make my system work for the components in it. I don't have a high end system yet I make sure I get the most out of it. I know my GPU and GPU limits so I know ultra would not work in my current situation. I use quite a few add-ons which will cause a CPU performance hits so I know to maximize my usage that I need to put my settings on high to very high and avoid ultra. In all honesty does having your system on the max graphics settings really matter though? My spell detail is set max so I don't stand in the fire while other things are on high. View distance is low which is the only thing set to low.
    You get your 35fps during LK because of your CPU, not because of your dual 250s. Replace your i5 760 with a Core 2 Duo CPU and see how your framerate is during LK.

    I didn't contradict myself. CPU is the single most important factor to framerate because it supports minimum framerate, which is directly tied to playability. If I put a fancy new SLI setup into my computer and go from an average framerate of 45 to an average framerate of 80, I don't gain much playability because the gains in average framerate are due to a higher maximum framerate, rather than a higher minimum framerate. If I have a crappy CPU and replace it and go from a minimum framerate of 15 to a minimum framerate of 30, then I've gained a great amount of playability. In turn, if I have a minimum framerate of 30 with either a Radeon 4850 or dual GTX 480s, why does the extra GPU power matter? Hence, GPU matters very little to the playability of a 25-man raid encounter.

    I'm not sure how many different ways to say this.
    Last edited by Cilraaz; 2010-10-28 at 04:02 PM.

  3. #23
    High Overlord Zookii's Avatar
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    You missed the point. One thing can bottle neck another. I know where my systems limits are and therefore make the best out of them. A CPU can be bottle necked by a GPU and visa versa. You can't get 35 FPS while in a 25 man raid with a i5 and a Intel GMA now can you? If you can then tell me why my laptop can't run WoW that great.

  4. #24
    Moderator Cilraaz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zookii View Post
    You missed the point. One thing can bottle neck another. I know where my systems limits are and therefore make the best out of them. A CPU can be bottle necked by a GPU and visa versa. You can't get 35 FPS while in a 25 man raid with a i5 and a Intel GMA now can you? If you can then tell me why my laptop can't run WoW that great.
    In that case, you're talking about a mobile CPU and integrated GPU. The mobile CPU will not hold up minimum framerate as well as a desktop CPU of the same line, hence the lower framerate. Also, the internal programming of WoW tends to dislike Intel GMA chipsets, which can also lead to further framerate problems.

    Yes, one component can bottleneck the other. The only time a GPU will bottleneck a CPU on framerate is if: 1) the video options are grossly overtuned for the GPU, or 2) the GPU is grossly out of line with the CPU (ie. current gen CPU, 4 generation old GPU). If someone's building a computer with a current generation CPU and multiple generations old GPU, they need to take a look at what they're doing, rather than complain about their framerate. [edit: Almost] any GPU within the last 2-3 generations will not bottleneck a CPU on minimum framerate.
    Last edited by Cilraaz; 2010-10-28 at 04:13 PM.

  5. #25
    High Overlord Zookii's Avatar
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    Now you're avoiding the question. You can in fact get a desktop i5 with a Intel GMA built on graphics card. Here's another question then. Try an i5 with the Intel HD? Can it produce good FPS while raiding in a 25 man? Even say a Dell with an i5 that has the nVidia G310 which is a terrible GPU for 3d gaming but can do better than Intel. Will that machine be able to produce 35 FPS while doing a LK25 fight?

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Zookii View Post
    Now you're avoiding the question. You can in fact get a desktop i5 with a Intel GMA built on graphics card. Here's another question then. Try an i5 with the Intel HD? Can it produce good FPS while raiding in a 25 man? Even say a Dell with an i5 that has the nVidia G310 which is a terrible GPU for 3d gaming but can do better than Intel. Will that machine be able to produce 35 FPS while doing a LK25 fight?
    There is a certain minimum level required for the graphics hardware to be good enough to not be the bottleneck, and that minimum level is much lower than the minimum level for CPU to maintain framerate.

    Let's put it this way to avoid more nitpicking:

    - if you spend $50 for CPU and $50 for GPU, both are your bottleneck to gain speed in WoW
    - if you spend $100 for CPU and $100 for GPU, you're already maxed out at graphics (without AA/AF) and CPU is the bottleneck
    - if you spend $200 for CPU and $200 for GPU, you're maxed out in graphics with AA/AF, but CPU is still your bottleneck in raids
    - if you spend $500 for CPU and $500 for GPU, you are still capped by CPU in raids, and can not rise shadows to ultra

    See the point?

    Also, Intel GMA is not gaming GPU, no matter what marketing bullshit Intel spews. It does not support even full DX9 hardware which is the reason why games like WoW are very cranky with it.
    Never going to log into this garbage forum again as long as calling obvious troll obvious troll is the easiest way to get banned.
    Trolling should be.

  7. #27
    Moderator Cilraaz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zookii View Post
    Now you're avoiding the question. You can in fact get a desktop i5 with a Intel GMA built on graphics card. Here's another question then. Try an i5 with the Intel HD? Can it produce good FPS while raiding in a 25 man? Even say a Dell with an i5 that has the nVidia G310 which is a terrible GPU for 3d gaming but can do better than Intel. Will that machine be able to produce 35 FPS while doing a LK25 fight?
    1. Who is the person building these horrffic "gaming" systems?
    2. Yes, you don't like me. Keep trying to pin me to the wall on technicalities. I'm sure it'll help you make friends here.
    3. A desktop i5 + Intel GMA still suffers from the fact that WoW fights with Intel integrated chipsets.
    4. An i5 with a GeForce 310 (which appears to benchmark slightly lower than a 4570) may fall a fair number frames lower than 35 (has anyone been dumb enough to create this setup?). Again, who is building this system with a modern CPU and a rebrand of a 2 year old GPU that wasn't good 2 years ago? If you're just trying to take things to extremes to prove me wrong, then you're making yourself look desperate.

  8. #28
    High Overlord Zookii's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cilraaz View Post
    1. Who is the person building these horrffic "gaming" systems?
    2. Yes, you don't like me. Keep trying to pin me to the wall on technicalities. I'm sure it'll help you make friends here.
    3. A desktop i5 + Intel GMA still suffers from the fact that WoW fights with Intel integrated chipsets.
    4. An i5 with a GeForce 310 (which appears to benchmark slightly lower than a 4570) may fall a fair number frames lower than 35 (has anyone been dumb enough to create this setup?). Again, who is building this system with a modern CPU and a rebrand of a 2 year old GPU that wasn't good 2 years ago? If you're just trying to take things to extremes to prove me wrong, then you're making yourself look desperate.
    1. Dell/HP/Computers people buy prebuilt from any brick and mortar store
    2. The fact of my personal opinion has nothing to do with this. You're proclaiming your opinion and I'm stating counters to it. Don't get so defensive since everything you've said could be countered right back.
    3. You finally answered my question thus proving my point initially.
    4. Dell Inspiron 580. Which is in reference to #1 thus any typical user who is not a computer tech or even has knowledge about computers other than to turn it on and install a program.

    You're arguing semantics about those who built a computer with sub par gaming components and failing to realize that we live in a world where not everyone knows everything about computers. You need to get off your computer guru high horse and realize that you live in a world where people don't understand how programs work and why you need certain things to make them perform better. People who want a computer and know very little about them go to places like Walmart, Best Buy, Dell.com, and etc. They buy them and those people who work there don't always know what to tell them in order to get the most out of the machine. You and I however are a little more advanced than they are and know that to get more performance out of WoW we need a good video card, a good processor, an ample amount of RAM, and yes even a hard drive can help. An SSD will perform better than a tradition SATA will.

    Also, to expound upon my personal opinion, that was left in private message and meant to stay there. This is exactly what I was talking about in the fact that you are publicizing things that should not be. Don't get mad that I know how to counter your arguments and pawn it off as I don't like you. Just accept it as someone knows probably as much as you do and get over yourself.

  9. #29
    Moderator Cilraaz's Avatar
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    You need to understand that all I said was CPU > GPU for playability. This remains true until you pull in arguments of years old GPUs being used with current day CPUs in setups that are not gaming computers. Dell advertises their Alienware and XPS lines as gaming. Inspirons are not gaming computers.

    Also, I publicized nothing. I did not state any detail of the PM chain. I will even stipulate that you never directly said you disliked me publicly or privately. It's an inference that I pulled from the fact that it seems every post since your ban expired has been a jab at me. If it's an incorrect inference, then I'm wrong, as I often can be. If it's a correct inference, then it's just that.

    I accept that there are MANY, many people who know more about computers than I do. Anyone who thinks they are the pinnacle of their field and has nothing to learn from another person is obviously wrong. My point, however, still stands: For WoW, CPU is more important than GPU for maintaining minimum playable framerate.

  10. #30
    Fluffy Kitten llDemonll's Avatar
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    the only difference you will notice with an SSD is load times, it wont increase your framerate by any noticeable amount.

    also, you're just mad because he banned you once before and you're trying to now 'upset' his opinion by proving him wrong to publicly get back at him.

    dell inspiron, despite being the correct, obscure specs listed above, is not a gaming system. i dont know why you are trying to pawn it off as one. no where on the website (yes, dell's website) does it say that the computer is meant for gaming

    Quote Originally Posted by Dell
    The new Intel® Core™ i3 and Intel® Core™ i5 processors are designed to get you through your day-to-day computing and beyond.

    Intel® Core™ i3 and Intel® Core™ i5 processor options have the power you need whether you are emailing, surfing the web, downloading and organizing your pictures or blogging, this PC can handle the task at hand.
    edit: hey look, i wrote the same thing as Cilraaz, I'm a fanboy now..

    "I'm glad you play better than you read/post on forums." -Ninety
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  11. #31
    High Overlord Zookii's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cilraaz View Post
    You need to understand that all I said was CPU > GPU for playability. This remains true until you pull in arguments of years old GPUs being used with current day CPUs in setups that are not gaming computers. Dell advertises their Alienware and XPS lines as gaming. Inspirons are not gaming computers.

    Also, I publicized nothing. I did not state any detail of the PM chain. I will even stipulate that you never directly said you disliked me publicly or privately. It's an inference that I pulled from the fact that it seems every post since your ban expired has been a jab at me. If it's an incorrect inference, then I'm wrong, as I often can be. If it's a correct inference, then it's just that.

    I accept that there are MANY, many people who know more about computers than I do. Anyone who thinks they are the pinnacle of their field and has nothing to learn from another person is obviously wrong. My point, however, still stands: For WoW, CPU is more important than GPU for maintaining minimum playable framerate.
    Your argument holds validity but you're failing to see that not everyone has a high end system or even an ideal system to run WoW. Can every person out there buy an XPS or Alienware? Think realistically here.

    You said I don't like you. That has not shown what so ever in any post other than me countering things you said as if I was playing devils advocate against your statements. Which has no bearing on if I liked you or not. You put that out there not me.

    I never disagreed with you saying WoW wasn't CPU demanding but without a good/proper GPU you're still going to suffer. Not everyone has knowledge of that or do they all have money to afford a good card. Keep in mind this is a broad spectrum of people from very poor to very rich.

    Yes, those who think high and mighty of themselves do need to realize they are not. They also should not take offense when another person points out different variables that can make what they are saying not be 100% true. This stands for anything not just computers and is not a personal jab at you, Cilraaz. I for one can accept if someone has factual evidence that I am wrong then I will tell them I am wrong.

    ---------- Post added 2010-10-28 at 06:13 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by llDemonll View Post
    the only difference you will notice with an SSD is load times, it wont increase your framerate by any noticeable amount.

    also, you're just mad because he banned you once before and you're trying to now 'upset' his opinion by proving him wrong to publicly get back at him.

    dell inspiron, despite being the correct, obscure specs listed above, is not a gaming system. i dont know why you are trying to pawn it off as one. no where on the website (yes, dell's website) does it say that the computer is meant for gaming



    edit: hey look, i wrote the same thing as Cilraaz, I'm a fanboy now..
    SSD increases computer load time which is a performance increase am I wrong? Faster load time = Better performance by most people. Did not say it would increase FPS.

    Not mad he banned me. The ban was justly done. How am I getting back at another person specifically when saying and countering their points with evidence that it can be countered. This would be no different if I were arguing points against you, Demon. It would be treated the same. He's taking offense to it as I don't care.

    Dell Inspiron is an affordable computer that people can buy without shelling out a ton of money. Not everyone is rich are they? Also the quote of i3 and i5 is not true. i3 are dual core and not best for gaming but how many of you guys used a dual core until quad core came more readily available? Also are you saying that the i5 760 is not a good gaming processor? The i5 760 and i7 860 are the same processor except the i7 has HT. You mean WoW uses HT? That must be a new implement and undocumented feature no one knew of. Honestly what game takes advantage of HT? I really don't know of one so please let me know. Being honest here too, I've yet to run across a game that uses HT.

  12. #32
    Moderator Cilraaz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zookii View Post
    Yes, those who think high and mighty of themselves do need to realize they are not. They also should not take offense when another person points out different variables that can make what they are saying not be 100% true. This stands for anything not just computers and is not a personal jab at you, Cilraaz. I for one can accept if someone has factual evidence that I am wrong then I will tell them I am wrong.
    Take a look at the forum (especially older posts). I have kowtowed to better knowledge and insight plenty of times. I'm not above anyone in this forum. I don't believe myself brighter, more knowledgeable, or more special than anyone else. I'm here to keep the peace, while bringing what knowledge I can. I'm here to ban those asking for it. I'm here to try to stop arguments before they come to bans. Believe me when I say that I wield the banhammer far less than some other moderators (you should see the appeals forum). I'm fortunate in that this forum section is small enough and tight knit enough that I can just hop into a thread and say "c'mon guys, let's be nice". In the bigger forums (think class forums or General Discussion), the mods would have to do that every other post. Instead, it often turns into "ban first, question later". I can't say I envy them.

    That went a bit off topic, but the point stands. I don't believe I've ever been bullheaded enough to stick behind a belief when proven wrong. vesseblah has proven me wrong, and I've accepted it (hell, probably multiple times, lol). None has proven me wrong, and I've accepted it. That's just two among more.

    I'm not backing off of this one, though. In situations where people aren't pairing components that have no business together or using a non-gaming system like an Inspiron as a gaming system, the CPU will manage the minimum framerate. It's an established truth. Minimum research is needed to show you whether a GPU is garbage or not. The GeForce 310 that you mentioned earlier isn't even sold by NewEgg. For $40, you can get a Radeon 5450, which is above the point where a GPU will bottleneck you. It takes a very specific setup to be GPU bottlenecked, and those setups are almost uniformily not gaming setups.

  13. #33
    High Overlord Zookii's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cilraaz View Post
    Take a look at the forum (especially older posts). I have kowtowed to better knowledge and insight plenty of times. I'm not above anyone in this forum. I don't believe myself brighter, more knowledgeable, or more special than anyone else. I'm here to keep the peace, while bringing what knowledge I can. I'm here to ban those asking for it. I'm here to try to stop arguments before they come to bans. Believe me when I say that I wield the banhammer far less than some other moderators (you should see the appeals forum). I'm fortunate in that this forum section is small enough and tight knit enough that I can just hop into a thread and say "c'mon guys, let's be nice". In the bigger forums (think class forums or General Discussion), the mods would have to do that every other post. Instead, it often turns into "ban first, question later". I can't say I envy them.

    That went a bit off topic, but the point stands. I don't believe I've ever been bullheaded enough to stick behind a belief when proven wrong. vesseblah has proven me wrong, and I've accepted it (hell, probably multiple times, lol). None has proven me wrong, and I've accepted it. That's just two among more.

    I'm not backing off of this one, though. In situations where people aren't pairing components that have no business together or using a non-gaming system like an Inspiron as a gaming system, the CPU will manage the minimum framerate. It's an established truth. Minimum research is needed to show you whether a GPU is garbage or not. The GeForce 310 that you mentioned earlier isn't even sold by NewEgg. For $40, you can get a Radeon 5450, which is above the point where a GPU will bottleneck you. It takes a very specific setup to be GPU bottlenecked, and those setups are almost uniformily not gaming setups.
    I said that was not a stab at you what so ever but agreeing with what you had said.

    You keep ignoring probably the most important thing I keep repeating. So I will specifically ask this directly to you. Is everyone knowledgeable about computers enough to know that a Dell Inspiron with an integrated nVidia G310 (why you couldn't find it on newegg) is not a gaming computer? Why do people buy those types of computers? Are people like you and I and probably a good chunk of the readers here exceptions to the rule? I would probably go to say you've never worked retail at a big box store like Best Buy and sold computers to anyone. You would know the answers to each of those questions and would have stopped arguing ages ago. However you're bullheaded and being stubborn to not accept that not everyone is like us and know something about computers.

    Initially you said the GPU has relatively little reason FPS are what they are. If that were the case a nVidia G310 integrated card would suffice and give the user ample video processing. Even Blizzard has kept this game requiring older equipment as a minimal requirement. Wasn't WOTLK minimals just a P4? Not a Core 2 Duo or Core 2 Quad but just a P4? I might be wrong but I think even the video card requirements where just a 128MB Geforce or equivalent. Regardless to your belief that the game would perform better with a slight better card and a better processor. That doesn't make a bit of difference as the game was written to accommodated those running older equipment. I argued that GPU does help WoW despite it being a CPU demanding game. You argued it stating that it really didn't. I then argued you need to have a good balance and you turn the whole thing into a personal vendetta of me against you.

    Can you not agree that without a decent GPU the game will suffer? It is CPU demanding but it also does require a good GPU to perform better as well.

  14. #34
    Moderator Cilraaz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zookii View Post
    You keep ignoring probably the most important thing I keep repeating. So I will specifically ask this directly to you. Is everyone knowledgeable about computers enough to know that a Dell Inspiron with an integrated nVidia G310 (why you couldn't find it on newegg) is not a gaming computer? Why do people buy those types of computers? Are people like you and I and probably a good chunk of the readers here exceptions to the rule? I would probably go to say you've never worked retail at a big box store like Best Buy and sold computers to anyone. You would know the answers to each of those questions and would have stopped arguing ages ago. However you're bullheaded and being stubborn to not accept that not everyone is like us and know something about computers.
    I worked at Circuit City for a few years. I know there are people who are lacking knowledge about computers. I tried to steer them toward the computer that would actually perform the tasks they wanted/needed, rather than the ones that garnered me the most commission. I ended up quitting because of constant battering from management for not pushing the products they wanted.

    If someone is in this forum, they're already ahead of Joe Blow who walks into Best Buy and says "gimme that one!". They're trying to get information. They probably know slightly more than your average no-knowledge computer buyer. If not, they're at least intelligent enough to look for the knowledge. This forum is a "destination location". People don't stumble in here (as can be shown by the fact that 90% of our posts are from the same handfuls of posters). They come in when they have specific issues or questions. That automatically raises the person a notch.

    Also, specifically regarding the Inspiron argument. If someone buys them as a gaming system, they deserve the poor performance they get. Here is, straight from dell.com, the description of the block that includes the Inspiron line:

    Quote Originally Posted by Dell.com
    Everyday Computing
    From the home office to the dormitory, our everyday desktops help make life simpler. Get everything you need for staying in touch online and working on everyday projects, and enjoy fun options that make it easy to get more from your music, movies and photos—all without stretching your budget.
    I see nothing related to gaming in that paragraph.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zookii View Post
    Initially you said the GPU has relatively little reason FPS are what they are. If that were the case a nVidia G310 integrated card would suffice and give the user ample video processing. Even Blizzard has kept this game requiring older equipment as a minimal requirement. Wasn't WOTLK minimals just a P4? Not a Core 2 Duo or Core 2 Quad but just a P4? I might be wrong but I think even the video card requirements where just a 128MB Geforce or equivalent. Regardless to your belief that the game would perform better with a slight better card and a better processor. That doesn't make a bit of difference as the game was written to accommodated those running older equipment. I argued that GPU does help WoW despite it being a CPU demanding game. You argued it stating that it really didn't. I then argued you need to have a good balance and you turn the whole thing into a personal vendetta of me against you.

    Can you not agree that without a decent GPU the game will suffer? It is CPU demanding but it also does require a good GPU to perform better as well.
    Minimum spec is what's required to log in to an open area with nobody around and get 25-30fps. Yeah, a P4 will do that. Now add 24 other people, a boss, each person's position updates, casting updates, event timers, etc, etc. That P4 has just begun to cry. I saw Cataclysm's "Recommended" specs. They're pathetically low. The new "Recommended" is more of a middle of the line that will get you through 10-man raids, maybe. Unless there's some huge change to how the client handles 25-man raids, CPU will continue to be as important as it is now and the requirements will continue to be just as high.

    The game is CPU demanding. I never stated it was CPU exclusive. I'm not sure why you're riding this GeForce 310 train. You're talking about an integrated graphics chip (minor brain fart with the NewEgg thing earlier... see, I am willing to admit when I'm wrong). You're talking about systems that Dell sells as productivity systems (see above dell.com excerpt). All I argued was that CPU supported minimum framerate, while GPU supported maximum framerate. I never argued that the GPU was worthless. Obviously, parts have to not get in each others' way. In 95%+ of cases, the GPU doesn't get in the way of the CPU, but rather the other way around. Just like statistics, rare outliers are discarded. They're not used to modify the data (or in this case, statement).

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Zookii View Post
    Initially you said the GPU has relatively little reason FPS are what they are.
    Most of the people asking for advice on these forums are using gaming computers, because they are gamers... Who would've thought. Because of that we start from the assumption they are using gaming computer and want to update into proper gaming computer unless otherwise specified.

    Starting from that assumption GPU has relatively little to do with low FPS and upgrading CPU is better value for money, or in some cases best value is scrapping whole old computer and build new one up to date.
    Never going to log into this garbage forum again as long as calling obvious troll obvious troll is the easiest way to get banned.
    Trolling should be.

  16. #36
    High Overlord Zookii's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cilraaz View Post
    I worked at Circuit City for a few years. I know there are people who are lacking knowledge about computers. I tried to steer them toward the computer that would actually perform the tasks they wanted/needed, rather than the ones that garnered me the most commission. I ended up quitting because of constant battering from management for not pushing the products they wanted.

    If someone is in this forum, they're already ahead of Joe Blow who walks into Best Buy and says "gimme that one!". They're trying to get information. They probably know slightly more than your average no-knowledge computer buyer. If not, they're at least intelligent enough to look for the knowledge. This forum is a "destination location". People don't stumble in here (as can be shown by the fact that 90% of our posts are from the same handfuls of posters). They come in when they have specific issues or questions. That automatically raises the person a notch.

    Also, specifically regarding the Inspiron argument. If someone buys them as a gaming system, they deserve the poor performance they get. Here is, straight from dell.com, the description of the block that includes the Inspiron line:



    I see nothing related to gaming in that paragraph.



    Minimum spec is what's required to log in to an open area with nobody around and get 25-30fps. Yeah, a P4 will do that. Now add 24 other people, a boss, each person's position updates, casting updates, event timers, etc, etc. That P4 has just begun to cry. I saw Cataclysm's "Recommended" specs. They're pathetically low. The new "Recommended" is more of a middle of the line that will get you through 10-man raids, maybe. Unless there's some huge change to how the client handles 25-man raids, CPU will continue to be as important as it is now and the requirements will continue to be just as high.

    The game is CPU demanding. I never stated it was CPU exclusive. I'm not sure why you're riding this GeForce 310 train. You're talking about an integrated graphics chip (minor brain fart with the NewEgg thing earlier... see, I am willing to admit when I'm wrong). You're talking about systems that Dell sells as productivity systems (see above dell.com excerpt). All I argued was that CPU supported minimum framerate, while GPU supported maximum framerate. I never argued that the GPU was worthless. Obviously, parts have to not get in each others' way. In 95%+ of cases, the GPU doesn't get in the way of the CPU, but rather the other way around. Just like statistics, rare outliers are discarded. They're not used to modify the data (or in this case, statement).
    So you admit that not everyone is computer literate. Which was what I was getting at. Not 100% of the users reading the forums are computer savvy. Some probably think they know a thing or two but in actuality they know about the same as "Joe Blow" who knows nothing. You're correct that a lot of the responders are knowledgeable people though. Some have experience with certain aspects as others do not. In mine and your case I have experience with SLI configurations and you said you did not. If you asked me how to do an SLI I would be more than happy to explain what I did and hopefully with a few tweaks to your system you could get it going as well. While I bet you probably could explain more on CPU overclocking and such than I know about.

    Getting you to agree that the system components have to compliment each other was pretty much the whole gist of what I was after. You can't have an awesome CPU with a terrible GPU (hense the G310 references) or visa versa. The whole system needs to be complimenting but not everyone can afford it. You can take that Dell Inspiron and upgrade components despite what Dell's website says and make that i5 be a 25 man raiding computer. It's possible with help. You did argue GPU held little relevance to though when I said it holds more relevance than you were giving it credit.

    Don't take the fact that I said those components are gaming but those are readily available for "Joe Blow wannabe gamer" to go buy. My system is a self built with an EVGA P55, 4GB PC16000, i5 760 OC'd at 3.2Ghz with 2x GTS 250 OC'd video cards. Is it a beast? Nah but I can't afford a beast. All I do is play WoW and COD4 and it plays those great. Not everyone who is a gamer can afford a machine like mine so they buy those Dells and HPs from big box stores. Don't count those people as "rare outliners" either. They are for the most part a larger portion of the 12 million users who play WoW hence why the system requirements are so low. In fact you and I probably are a smaller portion of the statistical equation. No evidence to back that so I may be complete off. However out of the people I know in this area who play, it's a larger portion that know practically little to nothing about computers who enjoy playing but they are those who don't really raid either. Not everyone who plays WoW raids.

  17. #37
    Moderator Cilraaz's Avatar
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    Read what vesseblah said.

    Also:

    Quote Originally Posted by Zookii View Post
    Getting you to agree that the system components have to compliment each other was pretty much the whole gist of what I was after. You can't have an awesome CPU with a terrible GPU (hense the G310 references) or visa versa.
    I never, ever said that you could pair an awesome CPU with a terrible GPU.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cilraaz View Post
    CPU speed has everything to do with 25-man raid framerate. GPU actually has relatively little to do with it.
    That was my original post, which sparked this whole thing. Note the term relatively. That statement is 100% true. 25-man raiding requires so much more from a CPU than a GPU, especially with all of the extra effects turned off/down.

  18. #38
    Stood in the Fire Erik765's Avatar
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    Man, that guy just wouldn't give up Cilraaz...

    Apperently he missed the part about how this topic has been mulled over probably too many times and he's somewhat alone on it.

    After reading over the whole post, it seems like one thing he forgot to mention, and one thing you may have overlooked is that he put in a dedicated gpu in a computer and it improved the performance in WoW. I'm guessing what was in there before was an integrated. Of course that will improve the FPS... it would be improving the maximum FPS.

    I noticed NO difference whatsoever in WoW when I upgraded from an 8600GTS to a GTX275, but when initially installed the GPU, of course I did. Integrated GPUs are never good, even for WoW... this will vary depending on the chipset of course and whether its Intel or AMD. When I noticed the most significant difference is when I upgraded my CPU from an AMD 4800x2 to an AMD 6400x2. 800mhz more on each core made a huge difference for WoW.

    Bottom line that seemed to get a little out of hand is exactly what Cilraaz was repeating... CPU support min FPS, GPU supports max... pretty simple if you step back and read it.

  19. #39
    High Overlord Zookii's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cilraaz View Post
    Read what vesseblah said.

    Also:



    I never, ever said that you could pair an awesome CPU with a terrible GPU.



    That was my original post, which sparked this whole thing. Note the term relatively. That statement is 100% true. 25-man raiding requires so much more from a CPU than a GPU, especially with all of the extra effects turned off/down.
    Sorry my first paragraph was lumping both of you in together. Two birds with one stone kind of thing.

    I didn't say you said you could pair a good CPU with a bad GPU. However I was saying you can't as it will affect your minimal FPS. With that being said it refers to your CPU speed being majority while GPU being relatively little. Relatively little means next to nothing or in numerical terms it could translate to <10%. Which is false even as CPU demanding a 25 man raid is. A low end GPU with a high end CPU isn't going to provide optimal FPS as compared to a mid grade or higher with the same processor.

    ---------- Post added 2010-10-28 at 08:43 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Erik765 View Post
    After reading over the whole post, it seems like one thing he forgot to mention, and one thing you may have overlooked is that he put in a dedicated gpu in a computer and it improved the performance in WoW. I'm guessing what was in there before was an integrated. Of course that will improve the FPS... it would be improving the maximum FPS.
    Went from a 8800GT 640MB to a GTS 250 1GB and saw a performance increase. This was on my old system with a Q9550 and 3GB RAM. Went to the i5 and 4GB and saw an increase. Which I never said the game wasn't CPU demanding. Added the 2nd GTS 250 and saw a performance increase. While the increase wasn't as great it was an increase. Even if it had been 1% performance increase that's an increase am I right?

  20. #40
    Moderator Cilraaz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Erik765 View Post
    After reading over the whole post, it seems like one thing he forgot to mention, and one thing you may have overlooked is that he put in a dedicated gpu in a computer and it improved the performance in WoW. I'm guessing what was in there before was an integrated. Of course that will improve the FPS... it would be improving the maximum FPS.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cilraaz View Post
    You used that magical word: average. Obviously replacing the GPU would increase average framerate, as it likely increased maximum framerate. It likely did not, however, increase minimum framerate.
    That was my response to the guy (the other 'z') who replaced his girlfriend's integrated with a dedicated card. Had it covered.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zookii View Post
    Went from a 8800GT 640MB to a GTS 250 1GB and saw a performance increase. This was on my old system with a Q9550 and 3GB RAM. Went to the i5 and 4GB and saw an increase. Which I never said the game wasn't CPU demanding. Added the 2nd GTS 250 and saw a performance increase. While the increase wasn't as great it was an increase. Even if it had been 1% performance increase that's an increase am I right?
    What kind of increase? Average framerate? Maximum framerate? Minimum frameate? You probably had an increase in maximum (and, due to that, average) framerate. You likely did not have an increase in minimum framerate in a 25-man raiding environment. Again, I think it's just confusion between "no minimum framerate improvement" and "no improvement at all".

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