Lay Hands no longer gives mana

[Deleted]

Theres some fights where blessed life is useful but those fights are rare.

This... Personally whilst i understand Blessed Life has a use it PVE speccing 1 point in BL and sacrificing a core healing talent point could be wasting 1 TP on a RNG talent, that is unless you invest 2 points in BL and 1 in TOR..

All in all unless a guild assigned a Paladin to spec BL and stand in the fire so to speak or heal from the front, i personally don't think this talent has a place in PVE, sure some of the high end raids in 85 there may be a point doing so, but it would take some persuading on your part to let your group leader to let you spec that way.

[Aphsara]

Not really. All I have to say is "This guy, who you wish were in your guild, is speccing this way. I think you want me to do it."

And Blessed Life isn't about standing in fire and healing. You are completely forgetting about all the other damage that goes out in a raid... If you want I can list out at least 10-15 abilities in bosses NOW and in Cataclysm that would make BL a viable talent.

[Deleted]

Zaroua of Premonition (US #1) has two points in Blessed Life. And fights with raid damage (non-aura) are not rare. H LK (and regular for that matter), H Halion... Most bosses in ICC, and most bosses in the upcoming Cataclysm raids... All do some sort of non-aura raid damage.

Again i think citing on paladin or guild's approach to a certain encounter is setting a bad precedent. It is similar to saying Scarab Broach must be BIS for 3.3 Holy Paladin since Paragon's First LK holy paladin used it.

That being said, i will repeat myself, yes it may have a place in PVE at high level encounters but you are comparing a high level end game player to the general mass who a) don't over gear to content, b) don't know tactics by heart c) may lack 100% coordination amongst the group.

Horses for courses really.

[Aphsara]

So, you're saying that those who DO know the class inside and out, those who TAKE the time to research the pros and cons of each spec shouldn't be modeled after, just because you're not serious about raiding?

My point is that any "decent high-end guild" would WANT you to do your research (looking at specs and parses of those who DO know what they're talking about) before they invite you into their raid.

Which is completely contrary to what you said earlier.

---------- Post added 2010-10-28 at 11:36 AM ----------

No decent PVE guild in their right mind would want a healer to spec that to generate Holy power, especially considering you have to TAKE damage to generate it. If you are using Blessed Life in PVE you are doing it Wrong.

We are taking about PVE here.

Here is what you said. And I'm telling you, you're wrong.

[Deleted]

So, you're saying that those who DO know the class inside and out, those who TAKE the time to research the pros and cons of each spec shouldn't be modeled after, just because you're not serious about raiding?

My point is that any "decent high-end guild" would WANT you to do your research (looking at specs and parses of those who DO know what they're talking about) before they invite you into their raid.

Which is completely contrary to what you said earlier.

1. Using a PVP oriented talent in PVE is knowing your class how? when both Tower of Radiance and Blessed life fully talented give 100% chance of generating holy power, only one does so via healing the beacon, whilst the other does so via taking "direct damage".

2. just because you're not serious about raiding?
Seriously, why make a statement like that? How do you know if i am serious or lax about raiding? Have you some benchmark with which to measure the correlation between casual raiders and hard care end game raiding based on their opinions alone? If so please do share, if not then please stop ASSUMING.

3. My point is that any "decent high-end guild" would WANT you to do your research
Indeed, as i have done mine. Been testing holy healing in raids pre live in PTR and tested holy in Beta so i don't really see where your point is coming from to be fair.

4. (looking at specs and parses of those who DO know what they're talking about)
Your tone is unwarranted, kindly keep in mind that treating your fellow peers with politeness carries more weight than trumping your own presumed endless Witt.

5. Which is completely contrary to what you said earlier.
Please explain how so... I would love to be enlightened, after all one never ceases to learn.

[Deleted]

Its not that you would intentinally take damage to proc it, Granted PotI will probalbly heal you through it anyway.

But ive seen a few times, focused beams on random members, if its on the paladin, it'l proc BL which for mana conservation will be great. Its not like were overburdened on points, I noticed diamondtear didnt ahve aura mastery on his bars, and i would hazard a guess he forwent the talent because it was great for 'aura' damage fights. Which i havent seena single one of in all teh beta testing ive watched.

The old style of letting others heal you for Spiritual attunement worked in a similar vane (except trusting healers to heal you part)

[Fiercon]

Where would the "Take blessed life" people take the 2 needed points for it?

http://wowtal.com/#k=te4EijsRu.a6d.paladin. This is what I would consider the PvE spec. I would like to know which 2 points are inferior to blessed life's ability to generate 1 holy power when direct damage is taken.

---------- Post added 2010-10-28 at 03:58 PM ----------

1 from protector of the Innocent
1 from aura mastery
seems to me the only (somewhat lacking) possibility

[Deleted]

Where would the "Take blessed life" people take the 2 needed points for it?

http://wowtal.com/#k=te4EijsRu.a6d.paladin. This is what I would consider the PvE spec. I would like to know which 2 points are inferior to blessed life's ability to generate 1 holy power when direct damage is taken.

---------- Post added 2010-10-28 at 03:58 PM ----------

1 from protector of the Innocent
1 from aura mastery
seems to me the only (somewhat lacking) possibility

Could be doable, especially at 85 and especially if sacrificing AM and 1 point from POTI meant more holy power, and as TG has pointed out, it may actually be possible to sacrifice AM in exchange for 1 point in BL anyway.

But i still don't feel comfortable with BL as a means to generate HP in PVE, this does not mean i will not give it a go tonight in ICC ....

[Aphsara]

Well, since you asked, here goes.

First of all, Tower of Radiance only gives you Holy Power when you DIRECTLY heal your Beacon target. Now, isn't the point of Beacon of light NOT to worry about directly healing them? Sure, it's got a 50% nerf, but you're still less likely to heal your Beaconed target less often than you would take damage, unless you're constantly healing your Beaconed target, in which case, you're definitely doing it wrong.

In fights such as Marrowgar, Lady Deathwhisper, Saufang, Gunship, Festergut, Blood Princes, Blood Queen Lana'thel, Dreamwalker, Lich King, and Halion, you're taking (almost constant) non-aura raid damage. I said I would list at least 10-15 abilities, right? Well, here goes (since you love to learn).

1) Bone Storm
2) Bone Spike
3) LDW Death and Decay
4) Frostbolt
5) The rifleman in gunship
6) Blood Boil
7) Mark of the Fallen Champion
8) Decimate
9) Pungent Blight
10) Shadow Prison
11) Flame Orb
12) Empowered Shock Vortex
13) Dark Nuclei
14) Bloodbolt Whirl
15) The stupid link thingy BQL does

That's 15 already... I don't think you need me to continue.

How often do you directly heal your Beaconed target? Even if you do... Because of the 50% healing it already gety from having beacon, you're still healing it only 50% of the time, which is MUCH less than the serious amount of raid damage that goes out (I haven't even gone into the raid damage done in Cataclysm).

Being serious about raiding means looking at your talents as it pertains to the content. Sure, in theory, Blessed Life LOOKS like a PvP talent, but when you put that into perspective of all the different fights you will encounter, you find that you take raid damage MORE OFTEN than you use the benefit of Tower of Radiance.

In a fight like Atramedes (Cataclysm) you only need one tank... You're telling me that you'll avoid using Beacon?... Or heal the tank with beacon on anyway? I'm not sure of the names of all of his abilities by heart, but that is a fight where raid damage is extremely prevalent. I believe Halfus Wyrmbreaker has lots of AoE damage as well (the unavoidable dragon breath).

So, as you can see, you talk raid damage MORE OFTEN than you heal your beaconed target (directly), therefore making Blessed Life a more VIABLE option.

As far as research goes, apparently you didn't take ALL the aspects of the game into account. No offense to you, but I'll sooner believe more experienced and proven-capable players than some random person... All the top-end players can't be wrong in investing in Blessed Life. There's a reason some specs work, and others don't. It's the way this game is made... Certain situations need certain abilities, period.

As far as my tone goes, you were the one getting defensive. You told me that no decent guild would want a healer specced into Blessed Life... And I'm telling you, Premonition is a very decent guild.

And you contradicted yourself by first saying that you thought Blessed Life had NO place in PvE, then you said that it had SOME place (but you still didn't believe it had THAT much viability), and then you go on to say that it's not meant for "everyday" people, who aren't as "coordinated"...

I hope you learned something. =P

[Deleted]

I hope you learned something. =P

We are all here to learn something or the other. Just depends on who is teaching... :P

[Aphsara]

Where would the "Take blessed life" people take the 2 needed points for it?

http://wowtal.com/#k=te4EijsRu.a6d.paladin. This is what I would consider the PvE spec. I would like to know which 2 points are inferior to blessed life's ability to generate 1 holy power when direct damage is taken.

---------- Post added 2010-10-28 at 03:58 PM ----------

1 from protector of the Innocent
1 from aura mastery
seems to me the only (somewhat lacking) possibility

Honestly, Tower of Radiance is not that great. One point in ToR should be plenty as a back up. You really won't find yourself directly healing your Beaconed target. Aura Mastery will be useful in periods of high AoE damage (especially since you only need one aura for resistance now). If you really want, you can take one point from Protector of the innocent and put that in Blessed Life and keep 2 points in Tower of Radiance, but it's not really THAT viable...

---------- Post added 2010-10-28 at 12:28 PM ----------

Sorry... Let me clarify... You take one point from PotI and one point from Enlightened Judgements.

50% hit should be plenty, with the amount of spirit you'll be wearing. Plus, you should be using your judgement on every CD... There is no way that you won't land more than one judgement in a minute (to get the haste buff).

So, 2 in PotI, 1 in EJ, and 2 in ToR... Should give you more to play around with.

As for me, I may only invest 1 point into ToR.

[Deleted]

personally I'd go for this;
http://wowtal.com/#k=terZRY36.a6q.paladin.-3aYwH

I have 20 judgement in my current build, and its easy to work around. But lacking Aura Mastery, it realy depends on the amount of aura fights we see. Do far ive seen none, but ive seen some flame whirls etc which would benefit.

If i needed aura mastery for a speicifc fight i'd swap out judgements.
http://wowtal.com/#k=terZRwik.a6q.paladin.-3aYwH

Havent tried a 15 yard judgement raid in icc, might spec it next week just to see what its like, with the way were meant to position ourselves for HR. Im sure 15 range wouldn't be that bad either.


For both i only have 1 point in last word, Its not actually a +healing ability, only gives crit when healing someone sub 35% hp, i dont know about you but i tend to keep my tank above 35% hp most of the time. Granted im sure theres a few encounters it'll work realy well. That decimate spamming boss i saw in the beta raids springs to mind. It realy depends on the crit leves i have once im 85 and whether i realy realy need that 3rd point in PotI.

[Sagittaron]

It could work out well to start a new thread for the Blessed Life discussion.

I think the lay on hands change is pretty cool. When glyphed, 10% mana is going to return quite a bit more at level 85 than it does on live, amirite? It scales better, at any rate. And over the course of a 5 minute fight, that mana should figure out to be at least 50mp5 I think. Sounds good for a major glyph in my opinion.

[Aphsara]

http://wowtal.com/#k=kmIpOCxmM.a6q.paladin.

Here's my proposed build. =)

[Goldrinn]

Thats what I thought they might do with the glyph. The Bacon glyph is still useless unless its a minor... I'll start reading that sticky now =P

35 Posts and nobody called out "Bacon Glyph" yet? Shame on you.

[Aphsara]

I don't think getting a long Judgement will be very useful... Especially since Holy Radiance's nerf. I have a feeling paladins will be stacking closer to the melee.

[Deleted]

It would be an ok talent to get, if you wanted to get talent on t2 of ret, but eternal glory and divinity are very much obvious pickup talents for lvl 85

[Aphsara]

http://wowtal.com/#k=teJS4oP.a6q.paladin.

Then this would be a better build at 85, going in accordance to what I just said.

you happy Uridawnblade?? TWO WHOLE POINTS in ToR!! =P

I keed, I keed.

---------- Post added 2010-10-28 at 01:00 PM ----------

Also! Does LoD heal through Beacon as well?.... What about Holy Radiance???

[Killora]

10% of your max mana is no better than Divine plea unglyphed. The whole thing around Cata healing is you shouldn't be needing to rely on Divine plea or Lay on Hands mana to keep your mana up. They're mearly there for when you burn your mana in situations where it requires such. Otherwise it's your job to conserve your mana

Also! Does LoD heal through Beacon as well?.... What about Holy Radiance???

I do believe Light of Dawn heals the beaconed target aswell. I do not know however if Holy radiance does or not.

[Deleted]

http://wowtal.com/#k=teJS4oP.a6q.paladin.

Then this would be a better build at 85, going in accordance to what I just said.

you happy Uridawnblade?? TWO WHOLE POINTS in ToR!! =P

xD yes, thank you...

Anyway im gonna run the Blessed life build tonight and see how it goes. Lets make a separate thread i am starting to see the light... /Jk... xD