Vigil Underwhelming / Useless

[Deleted]

LDW HC: MT takes boss, OT takes P2 adds

Rotface: MT takes boss, OT takes ooze

LK: MT takes boss, OT takes P1 adds, possibly transition phase adds and taunts P3 vile spirits as well.


That's three counts of boss cases, in which there is a clearly identifiable, true MT on the boss, and a seperate OT.

LDW with one tank? Oh wait. Yeah. I guess the dps got better over the past 6 months. Either way, if this talent change had occured before you could lolnuke LDW without swapping tanks, then Vigilance would be -even- better on LDW. You stack Vengeance to rush up the threat table to swap tanks, or you get Vengeance faster before the debuff staacks high.

Rotface: Ok, yeah. Warriors are the worst OTs on Rotface, though.

LK: While there is a "clearly identifiable" OT on LK, the "OT" still tanks LK through P2 and P3, and it's clearly possible switch OT/MT after P1.

Point is, there's no fight where there is an "OT", I can't even understand senator's reasoning or defination of an "OT", because on most fights all tanks either tank the boss the same amount of time or take similar amounts of damage through different sources.

It is good for most encounters in ICC, it does increase the rate of which you build Vengeance, it does reduce the rate it decays, it does allow you to get "infinite" taunts on the encounters where you need it. From a single target tps perspective the old was better, but the new is good in other ways and far from bad.

The question is, really, the extra Vengeance we gain, equals how much attack power?

[senator]

Marrowgar - one MT; ot(s) just a soak; just like BQL basically. Vigil useless.

LDW - if you have adds or the boss on you the AP from vigil is useless. More so if you have the adds on you since you wouldn't need any taunts (boss is untauntable kids). Adds are still easy to pick up; vigil damn near useless.

SF - vigil useless.

Rotface - 1) why have a war do this 2) you don't need taunts or extra ap assuming you're not retarded. Literally one shockwave and ss you can run around til the ooze blows. Vigil useless.

FG - you need to taunt once the whole fight, maybe 2x. Vigil useless.

PP - you need maybe 2-3 taunts this entire fight. Vigil useless. If you are the ot, you're in a vehicle basically and your ap is useless. You are MT, vigil useless.

Princes, you'll be tanking something; vigil useless.

Dragons - you're constantly picking up adds or taunting at regular intervals, Vigil damn near useless.

Does that about cover the usefullness of vigil? LK p1 is literally the ONLY fight where vigil is genuinely useful. Plz think about it...

[shadowkras]

I don't see why you would want the warrior tanking the LK, he doesn't have enough CDs for every reaper.

1st SR - shield wall.
2nd SR - 4p bonus.
3rd SR - last stand.
4th SR - 4p bonus.
5th SR - shield wall is up again.
repeat

Save enraged regen for when you feel necessary.

[Mammoth]

Marrowgar - one MT; ot(s) just a soak; just like BQL basically. Vigil useless.

Okay, depends who you are. As OT this is giving you a huge chunk of dps. As MT this is giving you a faster ramp up when you get the boss back after bonestorm.

LDW - if you have adds or the boss on you the AP from vigil is useless. More so if you have the adds on you since you wouldn't need any taunts (boss is untauntable kids). Adds are still easy to pick up; vigil damn near useless.

3 tank fight. 1 is on the adds, 2 on the boss. The two on the boss, only one is being hit. The tank swap over requires one tank to out threat the other, vengence means that this is done with full vengence and you're not sweatting about those damn mages.

SF - vigil useless.

Because I don't want my vengence to fall off while not tanking.

Rotface - 1) why have a war do this 2) you don't need taunts or extra ap assuming you're not retarded. Literally one shockwave and ss you can run around til the ooze blows. Vigil useless.

One fight where you don't need it, agreed. Not a fight that I would worry about respeccing for though.

FG - you need to taunt once the whole fight, maybe 2x. Vigil useless.

When I'm not tanking I go AFK for 4 minutes, theres no point me doing any dps, who cares than vengence + debuff means I do 8k on this fight. Keep vigilance, keep vengance.

PP - you need maybe 2-3 taunts this entire fight. Vigil useless. If you are the ot, you're in a vehicle basically and your ap is useless. You are MT, vigil useless.

25man is a 3 tank fight (well on HM it still is), keep your vengence. Also during the P3 rotation at the end my vengence will climb even when I'm not tanking. More dps from your OT means a faster kill.

Princes, you'll be tanking something; vigil useless.

I tank shadow guy, vigilance great for me.

Dragons - you're constantly picking up adds or taunting at regular intervals, Vigil damn near useless.

Sindragosa, if I'm not the MT I cba to attempt any type of DPS. And in the P2 rotation, I want to keep my vengence active.

Does that about cover the usefullness of vigil? LK p1 is literally the ONLY fight where vigil is genuinely useful. Plz think about it...

Don't ignore the DPS of the tanks. Yes, you're not tanking for the moment, doesn't mean you should AFK.

Let me also add, Dreamwalker : sometimes I can go a while with no adds spawning for me around the start. I appreciate the vengence gain from my fellow tank.


For a long time Warriors have been constrained to being the MT or not present, because it was impossible to do anything without being punched in the face. Vigilance means that we can stay happy while not on the boss, it is good for our class and it allows greater flexibility in future boss design.



---------- Post added 2010-11-01 at 04:39 PM ----------

1st SR - shield wall.
2nd SR - 4p bonus.
3rd SR - last stand.
4th SR - 4p bonus.
5th SR - shield wall is up again.
repeat

Save enraged regen for when you feel necessary.

I'm not saying its not possible. But I just don't like putting my life in the hands of the 4pc set bonus. With Sindy trinket, I probably do have enough tools to tank it now. But compared to the paladin's automatic "last stand", I'm more than happy hamstringing and jumping for spirits.

[shadowkras]

But compared to the paladin's automatic "last stand", I'm more than happy hamstringing and jumping for spirits.

Its no longer automatic, they have to press the key now.

And all tanks prior to this patch had to rely on their t10 bonus if they wanted to single tank soul reapers.
Also, with 30% buff, unless you are doing hardmode, he doesnt hit hard at all, will take about 40k (50-55k on 25) a soul reaper without any cooldowns, most tanks have 70-85k health right now in icc.

Because I don't want my vengence to fall off while not tanking.

vengence means that this is done with full vengence and you're not sweatting about those damn mages.

This a misconception, vengeance decays faster than vigilance keeps it up, even with the other tank holding lich king or heroic saurfang, download an addon that can track vigilance and see for yourself.
The decay from 100% to 0% goes really fast on live (dont know about beta yet), and vigilance just makes it last 4-6 seconds more til you have 0 vengeance.
If the other tank is constantly taking damage (100% at all times), you will have about 10% vengeance stacked on yourself (thats...300 more AP?).

Vengeance decays too fast to make vigilance useful on stacking it.

[senator]

The decay from 100% to 0% goes really fast on live (dont know about beta yet), and vigilance just makes it last 4-6 seconds more til you have 0 vengeance.
If the other tank is constantly taking damage (100% at all times), you will have about 10% vengeance stacked on yourself (thats...300 more AP?).

Vengeance decays too fast to make vigilance useful on stacking it.

This. This was my experience with vigil. Just didn't notice any difference at all really. DPS neglibile, especially compared to other tanks who don't have to talent for a dps crutch and can still out dps a war single target. Our druid tank was far and away top dps on festergut (he tanks first, gets dps boost, i take over and he dps'es). I can't come close to those numbers when i go dps (vigil or no), so naturally you game the system for more dps. VIGIL IS A POINTLESS CRUTCH GIEF BETER TALENTSS KKTHX.

[Snowulf]

This. This was my experience with vigil. Just didn't notice any difference at all really. DPS neglibile, especially compared to other tanks who don't have to talent for a dps crutch and can still out dps a war single target. Our druid tank was far and away top dps on festergut (he tanks first, gets dps boost, i take over and he dps'es). I can't come close to those numbers when i go dps (vigil or no), so naturally you game the system for more dps. VIGIL IS A POINTLESS CRUTCH GIEF BETER TALENTSS KKTHX.

As I recall, druids are getting a nerf in cata...

[rawdog]

it has been a bad talent since day 1

3% dmg reduction whoooop-deee-doooo and they took it away.

free threat w/e I have never once had an issue with threat, and any time I do (aoe?), a talent like vig won't help.

This was kinda fun in pvp as prot, just to tuant the crap outta lock pets ect. thats about all.

bad talent is bad

[kirasano]

Yeah i mean in 3.3.5 if You were doing some fights and one of the DPS was getting high on threat, You had to throw vigi quickly at him, on other fights You would vigi MT so u can have Your taunt ready - LK or Anub etc.
I'm not saying it required skill, but some situational awareness. So many times at LDW HC i was switching Vigi to different dps going up on threat.

At this point when u stand in front of boss, it all comes down to:
Food - checked
Flask - checked
Buffs - checked
Vigi on OT - checked

It's like a buff to track atm, but in combat u can forget about it totally. And there is no other options who to put it on. I mean come on.

[Pieterman]

if you don't have threat problems and your vengeance never falls off, and you don't need the swift taunts spec something else, tho i wouldnt know what.

[Deleted]

Vigilance is awesome.

You get easy vengeance stacking whilst offtanking, that alone is so awesome I have issues expressing it, and secondly you get taunt refreshing.

It may be boring tho, but it's a good talent.

[shadowkras]

I did a little more testing last night, on halion 10.
Phase 1 was tanked by a DK with vigi, i could keep about 9-10% vengeance stacked, peaked at 14% right before he stopped being hit (thats about 600-700 extra AP).
While inside shadow realm, i got 0 vengeance, meaning vigilance doesnt work if you are phased or too far.
On phase 3, i just ignored it, nobody took any significant damage so didnt matter. But halion never put me above 80% vengeance, it stayed at 70% the whole fight (regular mode blows). Rotating my cooldowns might have something to do with it, his breath only hit me once without a cooldown up. But again, the t10 4p is an absorb effect and it shouldnt have affected his breath that much.