Why the new raid design does not work

[allrightythen]

But Sarth 25man was hard once?

OT: Freakin hate the idea that 25mans and 10mans share the same loot table. I agree with your idea that they should remove tier pieces from 10man, but then they can just go buy there tier with justice points.
Easier way to solve this problem is to give more loot to 25mans, tier exclusive to 25mans, legendarys exclusive to 25mans and epic mounts/flyers exclusive to 25mans.

im so glad blizzard adamantly disagrees with everything in your post. We dont need to go back to vanilla lol.

[Heat]

Valor Cap is gone in the latest beta-build, so it seems there is at least a bone they are throwing at 25s.

[zenkai]

I just wonder how many people who say 10 man is easier than 25 man, raided 10 mans in 10 man gear lol

[Sidonis]

I'd like to inform the OP of what a ratio actually is, especially in relation to loot in the upcoming raid changes. There is not a HIGHER ratio of loot, even thinking that means you don't understand the concept of ratios in the first place.

For 10 players, 3 pieces of loot will drop. This is a ratio of 3:10. To scale it up to 25 players, you need to work out what percentage 3 is of 10. Hopefully you understand that this is 30%. That means we need to find a number that solves X:25 in relation to 3:10. That number is 7.5 (25 * 0.3), which Blizzard will most likely round down to 7 instead of up to 8. A HIGHER RATIO of gear on 25 would mean that the bosses drop MORE THAN 8 pieces of gear, aka possible gear for more than 30% of the raid.

Now, as far as the BETA goes, if the bosses aren't dropping the proper ratio of gear yet between 10 and 25 man raid ID's, it's likely one of three things:

A) A bug, and will be fixed.

B) 25-man raids don't have their own loot subroutines written yet and are currently using the 10-man ones that are finished, and will have their own by the time Cataclysm goes live.

C) They've purposely set the 25-man bosses to drop 10-man loot amounts to control the flow of gear on the BETA, for whatever reason, and will have the correct one by the time Cataclysm goes live.

Not even going to touch the rest of your post, I don't have all day to teach someone basic logical reasoning.

[Deleted]

You seem to have some serious "adjustment to change"issues!

All the things you suggest that is wrong is exactly what is their idea of making the game more flexible.

Their might be some range issues in raids, but that can be countered by, as you suggested higher range in 10man or bigger punishment in form of higher damage take if you fail to spread out. The tier tokens only dropping from 25man is in complete contradiction to the fact that they want gear levels to be equal for 10 and 25 man raids, if you think that its unfair and that 10man is getting better rewards than 25man, why not just reroll into a 10man guild and get the mighty perks of being able to walk through content without clue and getting same epix as the pros in 25man guilds have to fight hard to get?

The real issue is that you feel like youre better being a 25man raider and dont want anyone else to have the same size e-peen as yourself.

[underdogba]

Sure you may have a higher chance for something to drop, but you have a higher chance of not winning something due to having more people needing that item being in your raid... so it kind of cancels itself out.

I'm going to need to see you compute the probabilities on that one based on some reasonable assumptions, because it's a tremendous stretch of the imagination to accept that these two competing effects exactly cancel out.

[Lutharr the Dead n Damned]

my raids bigger than your raid! thats why i have a girlfriend (even if she is a troll)

[Aqua]

I don't like the raid design as it sits either and your points are exactly what have been swimming around in my brain for the last few months.

However I'm not sure I agree with your suggestions.

The reality of this is Blizzard is not going to change anything until they see the adverse long term effects of this. And personally? I think they want an excuse to get rid of 25man raiding. And I don't feel like I have any power to prevent it, so I've pretty much just bow-ed out at this point.
I'm sorry dude.

RIP 25mans.


I get the feeling after everyone completes the 10mans everyones going to leave the scene quicker than ever.
"Attempt the 25man version? Why...I have no reason to, I have all my loot and shinies." Will likely be the consensus and all those that wanted to try will be left there 7 odd people short sighing and getting pointless achievements before quitting themselves til the next raid patch.


I just don't think there is enough content there for the average player even anymore. Let alone the poor hardcore crowd.
I might be wrong.
The raids in catacylsm might be brutal and we'll be hammering at them for months to come.
But I highly doubt it.

[Deleted]

To be honest, I find 25-man a lot easier than 10-man. 2 people die in a 10-man, that's 20% of the raid gone. You can let 5 people die in 25-man for 20% of the raid to be dead. The only problem I have at the moment is that people can do 25-man and be more geared, then blitz through 10-man content because of superior gear.

But seriously, it's a game. Play it for what you see most fun, whether it be 10 or 25-man. Don't go "the easiest way of being well geared is 10-man, but I wanna do 25-man". Screw whatever is the easiest way, and just do what you think is the most fun. I enjoy 10-man, therefore I will continue to run them. If you enjoy 25-man, then run 25-man.

[masterkiller]

From a guild leader perspective, it is harder to manage a large guild then a small guild. I think we'll have to wait and see how it all plays out, but with people wanting to see end game content, there will be less attraction to heading to larger guilds that can reliably field 25 player raids. We have 30-35 on our active roster for current raiding. Who will want to sit out for a large raid when they could go do it themselves in a 10 player raid?

We will see MANY 25 player raid teams disappear, there is no way around that with the current setup.

[Clone347]

Why the new raid design does not work FOR YOU?!?
Some ppl dont have the time to do a 25 man every day ... you want phater lewts for having more time than others? You want phater lewts you go heroic baby .
The cap is there cuz the system can be abused by ppl who have nothing better to do than to play wow all day ( i was like that once i'm not being a jerk )
Phat Lewts -> Heroic
Not Heroic -> suck it up or get better and do heroics

[Kuram]

If your capping your valor points per week without spending them, you are doing something very wrong. That point is completely invalid because raid's lock out on a per-week basis. I don't know the exact numbers, but i do know gear will not require the entire pool of points to purchase one item (at least earlier on, or even midway through the expansion).

Assuming points have multiple sources of income, akin to badges (heroics, etc), then if you do 25 man and are actively spending points, your net accumulation of points is higher. It doesnt matter if you can cap at a certain point, because if your spending the points on gear as you can afford it, you will never cap and thus ultimately acquire more gear then if you would raid 10 man's and do the same amount of heroics.

I guess you wherent a stickler for math.

[Nat400]

If your capping your valor points per week without spending them, you are doing something very wrong. That point is completely invalid because raid's lock out on a per-week basis. I don't know the exact numbers, but i do know gear will not require the entire pool of points to purchase one item (at least earlier on, or even midway through the expansion).

Assuming points have multiple sources of income, akin to badges (heroics, etc), then if you do 25 man and are actively spending points, your net accumulation of points is higher. It doesnt matter if you can cap at a certain point, because if your spending the points on gear as you can afford it, you will never cap and thus ultimately acquire more gear then if you would raid 10 man's and do the same amount of heroics.

I guess you wherent a stickler for math.

The point was that before Blizzard had a cap on the amount of Valor points you could earn weekly, so that even though in the end 10 mans and 25 mans would be equal. 25 mans would get to the cap faster and wouldn't have to do as many daily heroics or similiar things to get their maximum points per week. Blizzard have removed this cap now which means everyone will be forced to do daily heroics everyday and 25 mans will gear up faster than 10 mans.

[Theratzil]

Argh I hate you guys that say oh but you can have 5-6 slackers in 25 when you need to be on top of your game on 10 man blah blah, the dps req is actually usually higher and more tight with the enrage timer on 25 than on 10 and you cant have slackers in 25 like you cant on 10, even with 10 man gear in a 10 man, it is not more difficult due to much stuff, also you almost always have a higher chance to fail on 25 due to the bosses usually doing more of the same thing as it does on 10.

[Krid]

Blizzard already stated that they are making the 10 mans equally difficult.

[Heat]

Blizzard already stated that they are making the 10 mans equally difficult.

Well, they aren't and they won't be. Of course some are in denial concerning this and will state this forever. Just because Blizz said so doesn't make it reality. 25s are still harder than 10's especially in heroic mode and in coordination fights. We tested all fights in both formats, and the impression we got was pretty much the impression all other guilds got. They didn't put any great effort to equalize them and the fights balance-problems are exactly those predicted when they announced the change.

BUT:
I am a 25-Raider. And I REALLY think raiding will be in good shape for both formats. I have no problems whatsoever that 10's get the same loot/legendaries etc. 10's got a much needed boost. 10's on Beta are fun, challenging and rewarding, and that's how it should be. It was about time something was done. If you were in a 25 man guild just for the loot you'll get problems. If you're raiding 25 because of the greater challenge and progression, not one thing will change.
The Cataclysm raid-format WILL work. 10s won't feel like garbage as they are right now, and if you raided 25s for the right reasons you'll be happy too.

[Smikis]

all of us can agree wotlk 10 mans were easer, how many of us raided wotlk 10 mans in 10 man gear?
did you done nax 10 man in 200ilvl, or in 213/226ilvl epics
ulduar 10, in 200ilvl or in 213/226 and so on , how many of you entered toc10 in 213ilvl? we all went in with 226-239 gear, then we came back with 245, gear and did achievements, overgearing by what 30ilvl gear?

im not saying there werent 10 man only guilds, but it aint them complaining here..

[Stevoman]

As long as the core mechanics remain unchanged between raid sizes, 10 and 25 will never be the same difficult, and anyone trying to argue otherwise has never downed Heroic PP or Sindragosa. Fact: having 30+ yards to juggle unbound plague or unchained magic makes the 10m "heroic" versions of these fights an absolute joke. The "less people makes deaths harder" argument is moot; if you are not wiping to raid mechanics, but rather because raid members are "just dying," there is something horribly wrong with your guild.

Nothing short of scaling the room sizes as the OP mentioned, or doubling/tripling the range of "instantly wipe the raid" debuffs for 10m will make them the same difficulty. And there's no way Blizz is going to make separate versions of a raid for 10m and 25m. Therefore, 10m will always be easier than 25m.

all of us can agree wotlk 10 mans were easer, how many of us raided wotlk 10 mans in 10 man gear?
did you done nax 10 man in 200ilvl, or in 213/226ilvl epics
ulduar 10, in 200ilvl or in 213/226 and so on , how many of you entered toc10 in 213ilvl? we all went in with 226-239 gear, then we came back with 245, gear and did achievements, overgearing by what 30ilvl gear?

I did. My 10m I used to be in guild did Naxx in 200 blue epics from dungeons, Ulduar in 200 purple epics from Naxx, and ToC in 219 epics from Ulduar. It was still easy.