Frost Presence

[Leetbeartank]

Is there a value for haste where Frost Presence becomes better than Unholy Presence? I'm assuming this could only really apply if it's a fight where you don't move much. Perhaps it's not a value for haste as much as it is whether or not you have runes that are wasted, in which case, has anyone figured out the precise situation where Frost Presence could possibly be better than Unholy Presence?

EDIT: Oops... Forgot to mention that this is in regards to being Unholy spec... I guess it could apply to Frost, but shouldn't ever, really.

[Zethras]

DW frost, FP > UP

[kiliaan]

What you use depends on your spec, not really on a hard cap of haste which is hard to get too. If your dual wield you use frost presence, if you're two hander frost you use unholy. I don't believe you'd be able to use frost presence unless you were somehow able to get over 1400 haste and then you'd be sacrificing other stats and would almost have to be gemming for it.

[Sylar Hao]

I'm a 2H frost in 251-264 gear and I deal A LOT more dps in Frost Presence than Unholy Presence, about 2.5k more dps. So I don't quite understand why UP is better for 2hFrost... yes, you swing faster and runes generate a bit faster, but that's all... Activating runes via Frost strike is more than enough to make them regenerate really fast, and you're losing 15% damage (talented) from not using Frost Presence.... I don't know, that's under my experience of course ^^

[deneweth]

From what I understand it will take a lot more rating to get 1% haste at 85 meaning you won't really have to worry about this in serious raid content for another year+. I'm guessing that if you ever hit that haste value somehow 1. you'd reforge 2. bliz would probably "fix" it 3. you'd respec to frost to do more dps.


What it is likely to happen is there will be a "soft cap" where your haste is high enough that you always have runes or RP to do "something" every GCD (with mixing in cool downs of course). Even this will be hard to achieve at 85 though, and the 3 points above may apply here.

[Algroda]

I'm a 2H frost in 251-264 gear and I deal A LOT more dps in Frost Presence than Unholy Presence, about 2.5k more dps. So I don't quite understand why UP is better for 2hFrost... yes, you swing faster and runes generate a bit faster, but that's all... Activating runes via Frost strike is more than enough to make them regenerate really fast, and you're losing 15% damage (talented) from not using Frost Presence.... I don't know, that's under my experience of course ^^

"...while those using a two-hander will be best off using Unholy Presence. The reason for this difference is due almost entirely MotFW; not only does the talent substantially increase the value of increased attack speed, but it also GCD caps the spec by a moderate margin, which makes the 1 second globals of UP priceless."
http://elitistjerks.com/f72/t105701-...sm_countdown/#

Sim it if you do not believe me.

---------- Post added 2010-10-31 at 06:54 AM ----------

Is there a value for haste where Frost Presence becomes better than Unholy Presence? I'm assuming this could only really apply if it's a fight where you don't move much. Perhaps it's not a value for haste as much as it is whether or not you have runes that are wasted, in which case, has anyone figured out the precise situation where Frost Presence could possibly be better than Unholy Presence?

EDIT: Oops... Forgot to mention that this is in regards to being Unholy spec... I guess it could apply to Frost, but shouldn't ever, really.

No. The more haste you have, the move valuable Unholy Presence is. 1 second GCD, and multiplicative haste increase are both priceless. As well, 10% more damage for your ghoul is worse than 15% haste, considering that ghoul's energy regeneration is also effected by haste. Gargoyle is also effected by the haste increase.

[Snes]

"...while those using a two-hander will be best off using Unholy Presence. The reason for this difference is due almost entirely MotFW; not only does the talent substantially increase the value of increased attack speed, but it also GCD caps the spec by a moderate margin, which makes the 1 second globals of UP priceless."
http://elitistjerks.com/f72/t105701-...sm_countdown/#

Sim it if you do not believe me.

Another person that treats EJ as the end-all gospel. Someone says they do more damage in frost presence in PRACTICE and you're telling them to test it in THEORY/SIMULATION?

Personally yes I've found that I do more in unholy presence, but not much more. I go frost presence for 5 mans though since it's burstier. I'm guessing that blizzard will probably make frost prefer frost presence one way or another in the near future, so it might be good to also DPS in frost presence to get the feel of it ahead of time. Unless of course you're still at the point where min/maxing plus or minus a few hundred DPS in endgame makes a difference.

[Deathquoi]

Another person that treats EJ as the end-all gospel. Someone says they do more damage in frost presence in PRACTICE and you're telling them to test it in THEORY/SIMULATION?

Personally yes I've found that I do more in unholy presence, but not much more. I go frost presence for 5 mans though since it's burstier. I'm guessing that blizzard will probably make frost use frost prefer frost presence one way or another in the near future, so it might be good to also DPS in frost presence to get the feel of it ahead of time. Unless of course you're still at the point where min/maxing plus or minus a few hundred DPS in endgame makes a difference.

I do eleventy thousand more dps in blood presence than either unholy or frost. Proof? Nah.

[doomchken]

Another person that treats EJ as the end-all gospel. Someone says they do more damage in frost presence in PRACTICE and you're telling them to test it in THEORY/SIMULATION?

They have no idea if you are running your rotation 100% correct or not or if your practice tests were actually on even footing to make your numbers generated accurate.

[kerwyn]

Another person that treats EJ as the end-all gospel. Someone says they do more damage in frost presence in PRACTICE and you're telling them to test it in THEORY/SIMULATION?

The sim will tell you how much damage is possible if you were playing to 100% capacity. This doesn't happen in real life, but a higher number on the sim will always result in higher DPS in a real situation.

[Algroda]

Another person that treats EJ as the end-all gospel. Someone says they do more damage in frost presence in PRACTICE and you're telling them to test it in THEORY/SIMULATION?

Personally yes I've found that I do more in unholy presence, but not much more. I go frost presence for 5 mans though since it's burstier. I'm guessing that blizzard will probably make frost prefer frost presence one way or another in the near future, so it might be good to also DPS in frost presence to get the feel of it ahead of time. Unless of course you're still at the point where min/maxing plus or minus a few hundred DPS in endgame makes a difference.

They could very easily be (and most likely are) doing it WRONG in practice. Have him post a parse between the two showing that frost presence wins, and let us see if there is a reason for it if you're so sure that I am wrong. As well, the person who posts the info for EJ has numbers to back him up, as well as the theory behind him to show why it's better to do so, as well as the simulations. I also have simmed it for myself, and the theory behind it is very sound. I do not blindly follow it. Blindly following someone's anecdotal "evidence" that one is better because you distrust the tools that are well made and thoroughly tested by huge numbers of people seems to be worse than what you're accusing me of.

As well, there is no context for this "testing" they have done. Was it on test dummies, were they missing buffs, was the target missing debuffs, was it a few short tests so that RNG has a bigger effect, are they geared properly, are they using the proper priority, is their spec correct, are they using the proper glyphs...the list goes on.

[GuyWithFace]

Another person that treats EJ as the end-all gospel. Someone says they do more damage in frost presence in PRACTICE and you're telling them to test it in THEORY/SIMULATION?

Personally yes I've found that I do more in unholy presence, but not much more. I go frost presence for 5 mans though since it's burstier. I'm guessing that blizzard will probably make frost prefer frost presence one way or another in the near future, so it might be good to also DPS in frost presence to get the feel of it ahead of time. Unless of course you're still at the point where min/maxing plus or minus a few hundred DPS in endgame makes a difference.

I've tested both. With 2h Frost, I was doing roughly 20-25% more DPS with Unholy presence. If you're doing less, you're simply doing it wrong.

[Unholey]

Not always, depends on how much lag and other factors. If one spec requires you too spam 1 button constantly, and another one is a complex weaving of 9 spells, the the complex one is 100 dps more in theory, the 1 button mash will always come out better due to simplicity, less likely to screw it up, less likely for lag to be a factor, less likely for fight mechanics to screw it up.

Simcrafting assumes a perfect rotation in perfect circumstances, this doesnt happen in the game, so whilst one may perform better in perfect circumstances (ie simcraft) another may fare better when you factor in all the actual variables that will be present.

[Daesir]

I'm a 2H frost in 251-264 gear and I deal A LOT more dps in Frost Presence than Unholy Presence, about 2.5k more dps. So I don't quite understand why UP is better for 2hFrost... yes, you swing faster and runes generate a bit faster, but that's all... Activating runes via Frost strike is more than enough to make them regenerate really fast, and you're losing 15% damage (talented) from not using Frost Presence.... I don't know, that's under my experience of course ^^

"First thing first: as stated toward the beginning of this post, dual-wielding will perform this in Frost Presence while those using a two-hander will be best off using Unholy Presence. The reason for this difference is due almost entirely MotFW; not only does the talent substantially increase the value of increased attack speed, but it also GCD caps the spec by a moderate margin, which makes the 1 second globals of UP priceless."

This is straight from EJ (wow stat gods) in their post on DK DPS in Cata.

[Sneakysnado@Gmail.com]

Simcrafting assumes a perfect rotation in perfect circumstances, this doesnt happen in the game, so whilst one may perform better in perfect circumstances (ie simcraft) another may fare better when you factor in all the actual variables that will be present.

It actually assumes a perfect rotation in average circumstances. You can't assume RNG will be good, and you can't assume RNG will be bad, but you can assume it will be average.

This is like pre-4.0 where people were saying "Oh I do more dps in unholy as DW frost so unholy must be better". No it doesn't mean unholyP is better, it just means you suck at bloodP. It's still the same, Frost presence isn't better you just suck as unholy.

[Gumbomcnasty]

With 2-h frost it simply comes down to this: if the fight is short and sweet then frost presence will maximize the brief damage period. For longer drawn out fights unholy presence shines. Why? while the individual strikes may not be as hard as frost presence's strikes the mere fact of faster GCDs, more runic power for frost strikes (which directly plays off mastery here, that's the gipper), and all around more strikes compared to frost in general.

Tl;DR - short fights = frost. Longer fights = unholy.

That's all there is to it.

[Algroda]

Simcrafting assumes a perfect rotation in perfect circumstances, this doesnt happen in the game, so whilst one may perform better in perfect circumstances (ie simcraft) another may fare better when you factor in all the actual variables that will be present.

Actually, incorrect. Simcraft for one is not that great for DKs, Kahorie's is the tool of preference for accuracy. As well, you can set conditions for latency. And some people can play basically perfectly, so saying that simple is better is not always the case. In this case, if they cannot react 50% faster, that might true, but for Frost Presence vs Unholy presence the priority is the same. Bad players give bad results, isn't that obvious? Good players will get better results with the one that has more potential, and the one with more potential by a lot is Unholy presence.

[deneweth]

I wouldn't call it blinding following EJ+sims though. They tend to post their methods so others can repeat it and explain results. Its rooted in the scientific method, and thats what I trust. If I was sick and had to go to the hospital I would "blindly trust" the doctors and western medicine.

The OP didn't even make a claim, he asked if something was possible. Its the equivalent of asking "does mayonnaise cure cancer?" and people are defending it. Just because you knew a guy that had cancer and didn't die who also ate mayonnaise doesn't mean that mayonnaise will cure all forms of cancer for all people.

[Leetbeartank]

I completely disregarded the fact that my GCD in Frost Presence would be 1.5 seconds still, and I definitely would have issues using all of my resources because of that.

Thanks for all of the answers, even though about 75% of them were in response to a Frost Spec. Sorry for the confusion there... I've got one more question about mechanics... Are any of a Death Knight's abilities' GCD affected by haste, since some are considered spells?

[Snes]

You're an idiot. The sim will tell you how much damage is possible if you were playing to 100% capacity. This doesn't happen in real life, but a higher number on the sim will always result in higher DPS in a real situation.

I heard ad-hominem insults increase the potency of your arguments. Also;

"When there are multiple specs that fill the same role, as is the case for Fire vs. Frost mage or Arms vs. Fury warrior, we have found that some players will play their favored spec because they like the theme or mechanics, as long as the damage difference isn't too significant. Sadly, those players also seem to be in the minority. Many others will respec, regem, etc. for even a slight *theoretical* (very important word there) gain in dps." -Ghostcrawler http://blue.mmo-champion.com/t/27495...-t-they-fixed/

Also, I'm not saying EJ is BAD. I'm saying there is ALWAYS room for error; treat simcrafting as analogous to theorycrafting within science. A good scientist doesn't just accept theory as fact, scientists keep each other in check and reproduce experiments to modify the theory instead of twisting the theoretical evidence to suit facts.

Don't just read the first page of an EJ thread and copy/paste the specs and gems, dig deeper into the thread, look for data that contradicts the post, and test both (or more than both depending how many there are). I knew saying EJ wasn't god would get people's panties in a bunch, guess I asked for it posting on MMO-champ though.