Poll: New raid lockout... Killing Pickup Groups?

[Sindy]

So i used to play my main (Sindy) just to do Pugs until Cata was released. I now find myself logging in to find very few people actually looking for more to do a raid. To me, this whole new lockout thing is a mess for a few reasons.

1) Quality main toons can't help the lesser people now because their toons are saved to 10 and 25's now.
2) If someone beats a boss, a player cant even zone into the raid if the new raid hasn't killed at least all of the ones the person trying to get into the raid has. Some people do different bosses in different orders, so in many cases you find yourself not able to join the few raids you would normally be qualified to at least join.
3) LFRaid, takes a very very long time. Then you have to dedicate your whole night to this one raid out of fear of not being able to complete it on another night with your raid group or another one later on.

I just find the new raid lockout system generally destructive to PUG's as a whole, and destructive to people who don't play as much as the main raid crew. Because they can't help us casuals out with their mains. I liked it before when they would do their 25 mans, and then help us bottom feeders out in 10 mans. It's my belief that the entire setup of guilds will change greatly, and the actual number of guilds will increase by at least 30% as a result. Then these guilds with no quality leaders will actually quit the game early because they have no place to go, and get loot when they're able to play.

What do you guys think?

[Indiglo]

Who PuGs nowadays?

[Bjarne]

Yea, I think they should've tried it on PTR or Beta or whatever instead of bringing this to live servers now

[Deleted]

Get a guild, even a casual one, and suddenly raid become much easier to organise and get... SHOCK!

On a serious note, its an intentional design decision by Blizzard, to attempt to force people into guild's, to enjoy the new guild perks and generally get people more "social". The game wasnt designed for the current atmosphere of many guildless puggers, it was designed as a "team" game and Blizz is attempting to re-enforce that.

[4KhazModan]

This is what blizz is trying to do. They are encouraging you to do more stuff with your guild. Have you seen all of the guild achievs?

[Omians]

atm its being tested in ICC and soon to be all raids when the next small patch comes out, its being tested for Cata raids which wont run like ICC were when you get to the next wing you have 3 wings to pick from... well at least thats how im seeing these raids and them not really having wings i may be wrong

[Spl4sh3r]

How is the new system killing groups? With the new system you can join more raids than you could before even when you are saved

[Sindy]

Who PuGs nowadays?

Now? everyone, even hardcore raiders aren't raiding right now (hardly). After everyone gets 85 and hardcore dudes get all their shinies they'll have free time on their hands which was usually dedicated to making Pugs not suck. So now, we won't have that 'ringer' tank or healer in the 10 man raid to help provide a solid base for some pugs. I think the new raid lockout will be moderately hurtful in the end to the longevity of this expansion. But that's just me.

[Shamslam]

Yea, I'm getting owned over and over by this new system. PuGing is a pita now and I don't like it.

[Nexxia]

Try and Pug some Cata Heroics when live hits, Ill bet you stop. They tune the raids to a higher difficulty as was said, yea, pugging is going to be pretty dead. Seems like the grinding instances for epics is dead too.

---------- Post added 2010-11-01 at 04:27 PM ----------

Its meant to get you to do things with guild... Pretty sure... Along with all the guild achieves and getting guild rep and XP...

[Chulda]

I liked it before when they would do their 25 mans, and then help us bottom feeders out in 10 mans.

Here's the point... People raiding 10 mans are NOT supposed to be "bottom feeders".
Also, you can clearly see, that Cataclysm design doesn't support pugs at all. There are guild perks, guild achievements, new lockout system etc.
When Wrath finally ends, and loot in 10 and 25 mans is the same, you should have an easier time getting a group... If you still want to pug, which is odd to me, but well, it's not the strangest thing I've ever seen.

[Malthanis]

Get a guild, even a casual one, and suddenly raid become much easier to organise and get... SHOCK!

On a serious note, its an intentional design decision by Blizzard, to attempt to force people into guild's, to enjoy the new guild perks and generally get people more "social". The game wasnt designed for the current atmosphere of many guildless puggers, it was designed as a "team" game and Blizz is attempting to re-enforce that.

I raid with my guild on Tuesdays and Wednesdays, and I definitely enjoy it. I've been experiencing what Blizzard is now trying to promote for the latter half of this expansion. However, the entirety of WotLK was based around the "25man drops better stuff" theory, not to mention that Shadowmourne quests can only be completed within the 25man environment. My guild is small, so we can only field a 10man group. I'd like to start working on my Shadowmourne quests. At this point in time, I now have to choose between working on my legendary or raiding with my guild (I'm going with my guild, btw).

Essentially, introducing this mechanic now was a mistake. The current raids were not designed with this mechanic in mind. This mechanic was designed for Cataclysm raids, which is where and when it should have been applied.

[Nexxia]

Ten man raid difficulty is going to be about the same as 25, atm heroic dungeons are about as hard as 25 man heroic mode icc, well some of them. Im sure there will be people trying to pug them, Im interested to see how that works out.

[Sindy]

Get a guild, even a casual one, and suddenly raid become much easier to organise and get... SHOCK!

On a serious note, its an intentional design decision by Blizzard, to attempt to force people into guild's, to enjoy the new guild perks and generally get people more "social". The game wasnt designed for the current atmosphere of many guildless puggers, it was designed as a "team" game and Blizz is attempting to re-enforce that.

I'm in a great guild. But i'm pretty irritated they can't help me if they're all saved to a 25 man. Their alts will have to do that, and it's not just my guild that's experiencing it. It's everyone so it will have an interesting impact on how people pug in the future. The result will be, they won't. Or won't be able to, or won't have success with pugs, or will become so discouraged with them that they'll quit before too long. I won't be quitting but i definitely see it happening in the future with many people.

[manniefaces]

Has not effected pugs on my realm at all.

[Nexxia]

And truth, the new system doesnt work with any of the old content. I havent played on live much since the patch guild quit raiding mostly until release, other than trying to get HH mount etc. Hardcore raiders are just farming mounts and pets atm. lol

[ZeroEdgeir]

I like the new system now, cause really, it lets you join any raid of same progress, not only the raid YOU did.

And yes, this was tested on the PTR, but the PTR was also only on Lower Spire, not the whole raid (bad on Blizzard's part), hence why there was no +30% buff either on PTR.

When we get to 4.0.3, this is going to apply to Naxxramas, OS, EoE Ulduar, and ToC, (not to mention, ToC will only have 10/25, with the Dynamic Heroic Mode, like ICC has, not a separate instance), which is also how it will be in Cataclysm, though not with different loot tables on the raid size.

I'd rather test and understand the system NOW, than have to worry about figuring it out when I'm trying to gear up again. If you are still trying to gear up now, this close to Cataclysm, just run Heroics, get a Battered Hilt, and wait on the Cataclysm Pre-Event, and you should be able to 251+ almost every slot, without stepping into a single raid (1 Trinket, Healer Shield, 1 Ring, Warrior Ranged Weapon, are the only exceptions I can think of atm, but the AH can fill Ring and Ranged Weapon for Warriors, if you got the coin).

[Sindy]

Here's the point... People raiding 10 mans are NOT supposed to be "bottom feeders".
Also, you can clearly see, that Cataclysm design doesn't support pugs at all. There are guild perks, guild achievements, new lockout system etc.
When Wrath finally ends, and loot in 10 and 25 mans is the same, you should have an easier time getting a group... If you still want to pug, which is odd to me, but well, it's not the strangest thing I've ever seen.

Thing is, every 10 man group is going to have to have a skilled leader, and they're not easy to come by these days to be honest. If not, the group will fail so you might as well pug and hope you get paired up with alts of a high end guild. I realize moving ahead 10 man raiders will get/see the same things as 25 man guilds. However, i think they're either trying on purpose to kill pugs or they will do it intentionally in the future. Like you say, pugging won't really be the smartest option. Therefore, pugs will die out and the people that normally enjoyed them will not have a game to play.

[Deleted]

They WANT to kill pugs, and they SHOULD be killed. You are hardly ever going to experience the raid to it's full potential with 10 or 25 strangers. The only reason pugs have been so prominent in WoTLK is because the raid content is cripplingly easy. When Cata hits and you try to pug, you're going to get your ass handed to you, like it's supposed to be.

Blizzard wants you to play and raid as a guild now. It's always going to be the optimal way to have fun and complete content.

[taurendeathknight]

On a serious note, its an intentional design decision by Blizzard, to attempt to force people into guild's, to enjoy the new guild perks and generally get people more "social". The game wasnt designed for the current atmosphere of many guildless puggers, it was designed as a "team" game and Blizz is attempting to re-enforce that.

So esentially, they are also encouraging anti-social behaviour by restricting me to only being able to efficiently run with the same 25-30 people in my guild and never branch out and PUG with new people and be social.

Clearly I'm not concerned with my main, but I'd like my alts to be able to run raids in my spare time. As my guild doesn't facilitate alt runs, my only option is to pug a group for a raid. If PUG's are crippled in Cata because of guild focus, they are very much creating an anti-social game by forcing you to never run with anyone you don't already know. =S Example, because my main is in a raid guild, I have general/trade chat turned off because, I don't need to talk to anyone not from my guild. To me the game is simply my guild members, and everyone else may as well be NPC's.

I'm not challenging the lock-out thingo, I'm just commenting on the implication Cata is based on guilds and not really being that social with your realm at all.

They WANT to kill pugs, and they SHOULD be killed. You are hardly ever going to experience the raid to it's full potential with 10 or 25 strangers. The only reason pugs have been so prominent in WoTLK is because the raid content is cripplingly easy. When Cata hits and you try to pug, you're going to get your ass handed to you, like it's supposed to be.

Blizzard wants you to play and raid as a guild now. It's always going to be the optimal way to have fun and complete content.

I don't agree with this statement 100% due to the above and also the fact that, I don't know man, I've been in some 11/12 H 25 ICC PUG's and when you go to WoW-Progress.com - there are guilds not even close to that. In this scenario, apparently guild raids are not the only/best way to complete raids.

As mentioned earlier, this is due to the fact that main's run with pugs for entertainment and help carry them. Not only can this help those carried become better players, it's also a good way to scout for new talent. This is a very good thing to encourage, killing off PUG's and hence this behaviour is not a favourable option.

I'm not of the opinion that raid's should only be able to be completed by raiding guilds, I have a lot of friends that simply cannot commit to a raiding schedule so it'd be unfair for them to miss out on content as a result. I actually liked TotC being on two seperate lockours for normal/heroic mode, especially for the above reason for scouting new talent on a main.