Mage Fire Questions

[Blitzkrieg Says]

well, regardless of what haste you need, I was at 25% (tooltip) and moved stuff around to 30.85%, and my dps increased by a good bit on H LK.

[Swizzle]

Isn't the extra LB tick at 37.5, not 37.75?

You get to that with raid buffs.

[Dojf]

Well i just reforged to 29.80 haste + 2 points in netherwind + Wrath of Air totem and got 6 ticks on the dummy.

Im currently at 28.70 haste(941 rating), with 2 in Netherwind Presence and 5% from totem/spriest and I get 6 ticks.

[Cryssa]

Just mathing all the above stuff out:

Given that the total ticks for any dot is given by:

Total ticks = RoundDown((Base ticks * haste%) + 0.5)

then percentage total haste required for additional ticks can be calculated with:

Percent Required = (100 / <Base Ticks>) - (50 / <Base Ticks>) + (100 / <Base Ticks> * (<Number of Extra ticks wanted> - 1))


For living bomb/pyroblast/glyphed frostfire with 4 ticks:

1 extra; (100/4) - (50/4) + ((100/4) * (1 - 1)) = 12.5%
2 extra; (100/4) - (50/4) + ((100/4) * (2 - 1)) = 37.5%
3 extra; (100/4) - (50/4) + ((100/4) * (3 - 1)) = 62.5%


The gear rating required to get to that haste required can be worked out with:

Gear Rating Required = ((((<Total Haste Required> / 100) + 1) / <Haste Buff>) - 1) * <Haste Conversion Rating> * 100

So, considering a raid situation @ lvl 80, with 5% haste, and 2 points in netherwind presence (2% haste) would give us a haste buff of 1.071 ((5/100+1) * (2/100+1))

2 extra; ((((37.5 / 100) + 1) / 1.071) - 1) * 32.79 * 100 = 931


But does that matter at all? The DOT duration is reduced to compensate between ticks, thus at 930 haste rating, the DOT would just expire sooner. I'm assuming you want two ticks to reduce the amount of GCD's wasted maintaining LB, but then 1 extra tick at a rating of 166 would accomplish that, and its far easier to achieve.


edit. Ugh, nvm. Just found out I cant reforge gear with haste and crit into gear with less haste and more crit. So unfair

[Hibbo]

Here is the Table for Fire Dots from http://manaflask.com/Greatschock/blog/4941/:



And here is the link to calculate your Haste Ratings (Never forget to calculate Haste Buffs multiplicative):
http://milamber.ch/spellhastecap.html

With 37,5% you get 2 Extra Ticks for LB And Pyro Dot and 4 Extra Ticks on Combustion.
Aiming for 45% will give you only 5 Extra Ticks on Combustion.
And the next step would be 62,5% to get 3 adaditional Ticks on LB/Pyro and 6 for Combustion, but only reachable with 12% T10 Haste Buff and 34,155% from Gear 3/3 Netherwind Presence.

In my Opinion i stay at 37,5% and the Rest in Crit. I tested both Setup`s for some Weeks now and the Crit/Haste till 37,5% Setup works better for me.

Be careful when you are talking about Haste and Duration of Dots, when you are short before getting a new Tick your Dot will tick 10,6 Seconds. Short above for example 37,5% your Dots are ticking for 13,3 Seconds.

Here you can find some Information (LB is the same Category as Renew/Rejuv):
http://typehforheals.com/2010/09/23/...quick-example/

[Cryssa]

I think I covered it. Its all very well and good that you get extra ticks for combustion with extra haste; However, according to to the talent description it burns for the same damage as existing dots over 10 seconds, thus you may get more ticks, but they would not hit as hard as they would with less haste. That said, I haven't looked at a log to check.

With other DOTs, LB in particular since it needs special maintenance, there is no real tipping point since the DOT duration decreases until an extra tick is added. That just means you want to sit at 12.5, 37.5 etc, so you spend less GCD's keeping it up.

But regardless, I went the 37.5% / 931 rating route because I could not reduce my haste sufficiently through regemming and reforging.

[Hibbo]

Sorry i missread your 930 to 931 Comparison (37,46 to 37,509%).

The funny Point about this short/long Duration in a Multi Target Fight would there be a use of faster LB and more Explosions compared to spending more GCD`s casting LB.

[Swizzle]

Hibbo, I am like...totally stealing your table for the PvE FAQ. Just giving you a heads up.

[Blitzkrieg Says]

Here is the Table for Fire Dots:


And here is the link to calculate your Haste Ratings (Never forget to calculate Haste Buffs multiplicative):
http://milamber.ch/spellhastecap.html

With 37,5% you get 2 Extra Ticks for LB And Pyro Dot and 4 Extra Ticks on Combustion.
Aiming for 45% will give you only 5 Extra Ticks on Combustion.
And the next step would be 62,5% to get 3 adaditional Ticks on LB/Pyro and 6 for Combustion, but only reachable with 12% T10 Haste Buff and 34,155% from Gear 3/3 Netherwind Presence.

In my Opinion i stay at 37,5% and the Rest in Crit. I tested both Setup`s for some Weeks now and the Crit/Haste till 37,5% Setup works better for me.

Be careful when you are talking about Haste and Duration of Dots, when you are short before getting a new Tick your Dot will tick 10,6 Seconds. Short above for example 37,5% your Dots are ticking for 13,3 Seconds.

Here you can find some Information (LB is the same Category as Renew/Rejuv):
http://typehforheals.com/2010/09/23/...quick-example/

Total awesomeness! Thanks for the calculator in particular, was trying to find something just like it.

[Khazaad]

I think I covered it. Its all very well and good that you get extra ticks for combustion with extra haste; However, according to to the talent description it burns for the same damage as existing dots over 10 seconds, thus you may get more ticks, but they would not hit as hard as they would with less haste. That said, I haven't looked at a log to check.

That's what i've been wondering too. I haven't checked the logs to clarify it, so i'd love some feedback if anyone did.
What i'm interested in particular is does LB portion of combustion double-dip from haste (counting 5 LB ticks over 10 sec instad of 4 base ones and then multiply it again with added combustion ticks from haste) ?

[Tycruise]

So from what I understand, if we have over 30.75% haste from gear alone, it's optimal to start reforging any extra haste to to crit? With gear, the t10 haste buff and 2/3 NP, I'm currently over the cap by 1.38%. With heroism and Pyromaniac added into play, I'm at a whopping 116.5%.

[WesM63]

I suppose I'm missing something.

I have 29% haste from gear, 3/3 NP and I'm only seeing Ignite tick twice.

Just a quick log from a Dummy, I was just casting FB until i got a crit and proc'd ignite.

Kalessina's Fireball hit's Heroic Training Dummy for 11178 Fire. (Critical)
Kalessina gains Kalessina's Twilight Flames.
Kalessina gains Kalessina's Cultivated Power (2).
Kalessina gains Kalessina's Impact.
Heroic Training Dummy is afflicted by Kalessina's Ignite.
Kalessina gains 157 Mana from Kalessina's Master of Elements.
Heroic Training Dummy suffers 2682 Fire damage from Kalessina's Ignite.
Kalessina gains Kalessina's Cultivated Power (3).
Heroic Training Dummy suffers 2683 Fire damage from Kalessina's Ignite.
Kalessina's Ignite dissipates from Heroic Training Dummy.

[Potato Bus]

I suppose I'm missing something.

I have 29% haste from gear, 3/3 NP and I'm only seeing Ignite tick twice.

Just a quick log from a Dummy, I was just casting FB until i got a crit and proc'd ignite.

You've only got 32% haste then. The 30.75% amount to reach an additional tick is what you need BEFORE 2/3 NP and 5% haste from Wrath of Air or Mind Quickening. Get a SPriest or a Shaman to group with you and provide the extra 5% and you should see additional ticks.

[WesM63]

You've only got 32% haste then. The 30.75% amount to reach an additional tick is what you need BEFORE 2/3 NP and 5% haste from Wrath of Air or Mind Quickening. Get a SPriest or a Shaman to group with you and provide the extra 5% and you should see additional ticks.

Thanks, I think i understand now.

[Hibbo]

I think using Combustion merges all Dots and calculate`s data for 1 Tick not the summary of all Combustion Ticks. Otherwise like you have stated would there be no real advantage of having additional Ticks.

[Micke]

Ignite is not affected by haste, the sometimes 3 ticks that occurs, is simply due to another spell critting before the ignite has had a chance to tick, this will then split up the damage into 3 ticks

its sort of complicated and is a real mess atm so the above statement is just a very simplified way of explainining it, but its not affected by haste

[Glatiz]

having haste is good, but so is crit. without crit its lame dmg, without haste its lame dmg. get my drift? 32% haste 35% crit, go into mastery after that. this is good to go by off of.

[Cebel]

Hibbo, I am like...totally stealing your table for the PvE FAQ. Just giving you a heads up.

They arnt his tables, they were originally posted on Greatschocks mage guide over on manaflask.com ( Ensidia and For the Hordes new website ).

[takolin]

having haste is good, but so is crit. without crit its lame dmg, without haste its lame dmg. get my drift? 32% haste 35% crit, go into mastery after that. this is good to go by off of.

Stay away from mastery as fire, it's not worth it now and I doubt it'll worth it in Cataclysm.

[klaps_05]

right now - mastery indeed is quite weak since you cant stack much of it;

right now it cant be said "haste is better"/"crit is better" at 85 since you havent been there; even after doing tons of raids on beta there are still quite some calcs to be done to make a final decision.