so why is zg being removed again?

[Penatar]

I can really see the next expansion after cata getting rid of all lvl 60 raids and then also starting to eliminate BC raids. I'm sad.

[Appletini]

I think they'll re-release the mounts elsewhere in the future. They're easy fodder for rewards elsewhere--either random drops somewhere or rewards. Have they removed any other random drop mounts from the game ever? They removed the ZA bear, but that's not really the same thing...

[jacobcarlos]

lol half of you people are failing. . ."its a open rooftop raid in azeroth people can fly right into it" BAHAHAHAHAH wtf! you do realize you can fly into TOC, and both AQ's (when cata is released) i mean good gosh it not that hard to think! hahahahha

[ungar]

-Molten Core solo. Replace.
-BWL could be done solo if not for mechanic of first fight. Replace.
-AQ can be done solo or 2-5 depending on encounter, not 20/40. Trivial. Replace.
-Most BC raids can be done with 1-10 encounter dependent. I solo Attumen for his mount.
-Did TK with 10 a few nights ago. Replace all BC raids.
-All BC Heroic dungeons can be done solo including MT.
-Naxx can be done with 5, some bosses solo. Replace.
-I've soloed LK dungeons. Replace.
So ALL this content is trivialized and should be replaced based on your statement.

All pre Cata content is trivial. (with the exception of 3-4 encounters) Replace it all??

I did the ZG raids back when it was end-game content. No mount.
I've farmed the ZG mount bosses for close to a year now and neither one. I got the raptor pet! whooooopeeee
RNG is retarded.

To the other guy above who said he had his mounts and was done with this raid, I got a special gesture for you...

LOL not really worth responding, as it seems you're just looking for an argument. but I'll resond just this once. you've made the point that those trivialized raids that were intended for 20-40 people can be handled by less than 10 people... yes they're not as challenging as they were meant to be, but they aren't the same as ZG. most people run ZG for the tiger mount, thats the main reason. why do people run molten core? there's mats that people need for crafting at that level, some of that stuff still sells in AH, and people want to do the quest chains but most importantly thunderfury. ZG on the other hand focuses around rep and the quests are rep specific. blackrock mountain has a place in the cataclysm storyline, ragnaros even being updated for level 85.

there's a difference between removing ZG which is heavily based on rep outside the instance, in stranglethorn vale and a raid that has a piece to the main storyline. were they to keep ZG, they would need to revamp the rep from inside the instance just for level 60? and this would be pointless since the zones that use that rep are changing. its much more work for nothing.

running molten core, BWL for thundefury is different than running for the tiger which has an extremely low drop rate. you work for thunderfury, and a lot of people want to "earn" it. the effort may be trivial, but its cosmetic and requires a lot more effort than hoping the ZG mount drops for you.

yes, I think eventually all the trivial raids will end up being replaced, but they cant all be removed at once. if you could remove one trivial 20/40 man raid, which would it be? take into consideration that ZG relies heavily on world content with the reputation and quests, and the zone changes a lot in cataclysm.

because you can do a raid with 10 players instead of 20, that isn't trivializing it like soloing a 20 man raid. you may think its trivializing, but many people aren't able to do it with even 10 players. those are hard raids, but irrelevent since outland isn't receiving the overhaul azeroth is. my point was that ZG was being soloed and trivialized (can't get much more trivial than that) and that they needed the area for their plans in new content and quests.

its absurd to say all content that can be trivialized should be removed. there are reasons for some things staying and removing others. if they don't need to remove it they wouldn't, but in the direction they were going with the zone they just decided enough didn't speak on its behalf and they had other things in mind to replace it. so if they had things planned to replace molten core, BWL (didn't need it for the lore/story, and say for example, thunderfury wasn't an issue) people could solo them as easily as ZG, and if they were the size of ZG, these might be good reasons to replace the raid with something else. the point isn't that the trivialized instance have good reasons to stay, if they don't have a reason so much as they don't have a reason to not be replaced.

ZG had a reason to be replaced (even if the reason was its just too much work to keep it and update the area to be compatible with the zone)

with good reason, other trivialized raids would have a reason to be replaced as well.

Removing ZG makes as much sense as breaking "the Insane".

the reason insane was being removed was that the rep was changing and it was too much work to keep it. if its "trivial" but people still spend time on it, and want to do it, thats fine, let them... but if there's a reason to remove it because its too much work to update it so its compatible with the changes then it has to go. what can you do? remove those rep requirements that dont exist anymore? as if it wasn't trivialized enough already?

"They need more space...." ROFLMAO! We are talking about Blizzard, ya know the people who MAKE the game. Make the continent bigger?? /boggle
Remove the retarted arena in STV, not ZG. What is it used for anyway?

now you're being silly. they don't "need more space" as in physical space. they need more space as in trying to fit enough of the zone's story into a few levels. having the raid there would either be a huge instance for 1 boss that drops the mount, or it would need old quests/rep that are being removed to be replaced with new content that corresponds to the zone.

the decision may have been simply "it doesn't really fit with the new zone content, it would be more work to keep it, but maybe if we remove it now, we can build on the good aspects of the lore in a future raid/storyline. which is why I said it had redeeming qualities, but they just didn't have a place in the current climate, but I think we will see it again when its put back together.

edit: by the way, I like the arena, not saying it has a reason to stay more than something else in the zone, but the pvp is fun, some people enjoy it... so long as it doesn't conflict with the new content, why replace it? I've had fun with the arena, and it can still be challenging at 80, and probably 85. though it may have been meant for level 35's to play in... people of varies levels can still enjoy it. I've seen people from level 1 to 80 get the chest... so its not as trivial as you think. also it doesn't require further work for content. its one of those things players can do for fun without requiring anything from the developers.

[mickybrighteyes]

Aren't ZG and both AQ zones getting redone?

Also cry more. Tons of various little fun things are getting nuked and have been nuked in the past. The zulian tiger and raptors won't be the first nor last. Those that have them or aquire them before the change goes live, congrats to you. Those of you who'd rather go onto the forum and complain about not getting it.... take a step back and think for a minute, this is a game and those items do nothing to affect your character in anyway.

[ungar]

so they should remove the http://www.wowhead.com/item=13335 because noone ever thought he'd solo able plus since strath's lvl is getting lowered even more of a reason to remove it. I also can solo AQ40 trash for scarab mounts they should be removed too!

if stratholme conflicted with the zone and new content and required more work to keep it, and they wanted to do use undead theme again in a future patch, then maybe it would be removed too. the issue isn't that everything should be removed if its not challenging or popular, but more that if its too much effort to try and keep it -- if the cons outweigh the pros, then the decision might be to remove it.

[army1237]

The reason is because ZG is the an outdoor raid that is taking up heaps of space in a zone that needs more area. As such unlike AQ20/40 where the zone is pretty desolate and already has plenty of space ZG and the new STV zone needs this space. Its a pity I know as I haven't gotten either mount yet but I suppose at least it'll make the tiger/raptor even more rare.

[Cernunnos]

It is an open roofed raid, so people would fly into it with the flying in Azeroth if they didn't change it.

ZF, Stratholme and portions of Dire Maul are open roof. yet nothing is changing to them.

Hell even AQ 20 (now AQ 10) is open roof.

[skorpio73]

the reason insane was being removed was that the rep was changing and it was too much work to keep it. if its "trivial" but people still spend time on it, and want to do it, thats fine, let them... but if there's a reason to remove it because its too much work to update it so its compatible with the changes then it has to go. what can you do? remove those rep requirements that dont exist anymore? as if it wasn't trivialized enough already?

The players aka, paying customers want both ZG and the title kept obtainable. Keep it. My opinion, as I am a customer and have been since WoW launch. Good customer service. Sorry if they have to do a little extra work for that. I think that is what the devs get paid for...developing content without breaking existing content.

"Oh noes, we gotta rush this out so we can reap the Xmas loot! Screw those things, who cares if we break/remove them. They will still pay."

Just one question Ungar. Do you have the mounts?

[Laplace]

Who cares what the paying customers want. All the paying customers of lottery tickets want to win the lottery. 99% of them don't. If the lottery was abolished, I wouldn't care, because odds are odds, you win some and you lose some. That's life. That's the risk you take when playing odds.

If Blizzard intended on making sure every QQing customer was able to get all the mounts they want, they would make them 100% drop. Then you would essentially be basically buying them. So what if you didn't get them. I didn't get them. Am I going to whine about it because I pay money to play the game? No, because I'm not an immature spoiled brat. You can't always get what you want. If you don't like it, then quit life.

I bet all the people crying about not being able to get the mounts anymore bought all the vanity pets from the blizzard store, including that god awful $25 flying horse. Don't you have enough crap?

[Elovan]

The design of ZG fits really nicely into the area and its a really nice looking area to just wander around. I hope that they scale the mobs in there down to the appropriate levels and keep as many of them in place as they can. Yeah its a shame about the mounts, but I dont think they really had any bearing on the decision.

The thing is, people (as we've seen) will argue that "you've got rid of this so why leave these" as if that has any bearing on it. They simply had the idea that it would make a good questing area, so they changed it. Because you change one doesnt mean you have to change all. If they thought they could be better used another way they probably would change them, but they decided it was unnecessary.

As Zarhym said "we made a design decision you dont like so you roll that train of thought off the mountain to try and make a point". Just get that's all it is. There doesnt have to be any more reason other than they think it will make the game better in some way. What they do with the the other raids is irrelevant.

You should all pay attention to this guy more often, he speaks sense. Blizzard decided they were going to remove it because they believed it would better serve the game as a questing area. It's a completely individual basis and has absolutely zero bearing on any decisions for other classic raids.

I'll try and find the WoWInsider article that was posted a couple months ago that show how ZG has been implemented into STV's quest flow.

Edit: found it http://wow.joystiq.com/2010/07/26/ca...-of-stranglet/

[kosmosu]

The players aka, paying customers want both ZG and the title kept obtainable. Keep it. My opinion, as I am a customer and have been since WoW launch. Good customer service. Sorry if they have to do a little extra work for that. I think that is what the devs get paid for...developing content without breaking existing content.

"Oh noes, we gotta rush this out so we can reap the Xmas loot! Screw those things, who cares if we break/remove them. They will still pay."

Just one question Ungar. Do you have the mounts?

I have been a "paying customer" for over 6 years now. I have done that content in its prime, while some of the best content I have come across it is time to say goodbye. I played beta for a while and I loved how they turned it into a questing area. it was a lot of fun. I do not have the insane titles nor the mounts (not without trying mind you) but it just does not fit with all the changes.

Now the mention of MC BWL AQ MC and BWL instance portals are inside other instances. (MC portal in BRD while bWL in UBRS) you teleported to those instances from the inside meaning they did not have to bother with designing the world around them they are in the middle of mountain that did not really get changed.

AQ 20 and 40 is a bit different. Sithilis (or how ever you spell it) had little to no viable content in it with a tremendous amount of unused space to it. while STV on the other hand has all of its space being used.

[ungar]

The players aka, paying customers want both ZG and the title kept obtainable. Keep it. My opinion, as I am a customer and have been since WoW launch. Good customer service. Sorry if they have to do a little extra work for that. I think that is what the devs get paid for...developing content without breaking existing content.

"Oh noes, we gotta rush this out so we can reap the Xmas loot! Screw those things, who cares if we break/remove them. They will still pay."

Just one question Ungar. Do you have the mounts?

I completely disagree. though I think they should listen to the customer and give us what we want for game design, I know they can't listen to every customer. they had plans to remove it for a good reason (or lack of a compelling reason to keep it) if it required more time and effort to keep it so people can solo farm it for a mount they likely wont get... thats not enough of a reason to keep a 20 man raid. I'm glad there aren't level caps on instances...its pretty silly to solo a 20 man raid because you outgear it by 20 levels... still, I like to do it, and I run people through lower level instances on a level 80 all the time to help them level. I'm glad I don't actually have to run a level 20 instance sometimes... I'm glad I can solo level 60 raid content too. thats not to say that its fair for a level 80 to trivialize the content and the effort someone else ran it at the appropriate, challenging level... we're kind of spoiled.

no, I don't have the mounts. I haven't been grinding ZG, though I do like the tiger mount, wish I could get it, but I froze my account till cataclysm before they announced ZG being removed... so I'll never get the tiger mount now.

[Deleted]

Since when is ZG removed? Its being turned into a 5 man dungeon instead. So if it fits or not doesnt really matter, since its comming back.

No, it will not be a 5man dungeon.

[Morte]

Well I watched Blizzcon and if I remember when someone asked this at blizzcon the answer was simply "We think it'll be better used as a leveling area"...

You can agree with it or not...but that's pretty much what Blizzard's answer was.

[TJ]

Because i dont have the mounts yet, so like everything else that i havnt got but want, Blizzard has to remove it.

[Zaquel]

It is an open roofed raid, so people would fly into it with the flying in Azeroth if they didn't change it.

tell me about AQ then.. please, explain it to me..

[Space Troll]

Blizzard owns the game, so therefore they have the ultimate choice whether or not it's in the game.


/Thread

[Lorien]

They want to use the area for questing.

That's the beginning, middle, and end of the story. It's not groundbreaking, and it's not worthy of a thread.

[haglowicz]

all i read (blue) was that only a few guys used it to farm the mounts and that it was better off as a leveling area. cant really get why they cant keep both though?

also, isnt that the case with EVERY non current top level raid?
whats the difference between ZG and AQ20 or AQ40, SSC, Hyjal, MC, BT, BWL, SWP and TK?
all of them are normally run just for the achievs, rep, or a crappy chance at some legendary, or mount or whatever.

come to think of it, ZG is actually one of the old raids that is run more often (since most classes can solo the bosses there) so that is even more reason to not remove it..

but anyways i really fail to see the point of removing ZG. maybe they could just remove the mounts if theyre not happy with that? but still it doesnt make any sense.

Actually, that's a very good reason to remove it.

Basically, Northern Stanglethorn is a level 25-30 zone. With ZG as it is now left intact, that would be a raid instance of level 60 content only being run by level 85s solo in the middle of the zone. Doesn't that seem just a tad out of place?