Leader of the Pack

[Rikkuu]

At the minute, I think you have to read all the patch notes and put your classes changes into context of all classes that fulfil the role. Yes Bears are getting "nerfed" (read "balanced") but so is every other tanking class.

Everything i hear from my DK friend at beta is how after some huge dmg taken he heals himself for 30k + and then 30k absorb from mastery...i dont see this being balanced sorry

[AetherMcLoud]

Everything i hear from my DK friend at beta is how after some huge dmg taken he heals himself for 30k + and then 30k absorb from mastery...i dont see this being balanced sorry

The DK has to spend 50% of his slowly regenerating (and sometimes randomly regenerating) resources to do so, and a DK doesn't have a passive savage defense absorb shield that just happens to proc on crits. DKs have to activate their "block" mechanic while for bears it just happens in your normal rotation.

Also if the Dk does his Death Strike heal+shield, he usually cannot use bone shield (akin to barkskin) and death & decay (the best aoe threat move) for 10 seconds because they all use the same resource.

[Cortano]

Also if the Dk does his Death Strike heal+shield, he usually cannot use bone shield (akin to barkskin) and death & decay (the best aoe threat move) for 10 seconds because they all use the same resource.

The DK design is interesting because they actually get some choices, deciding which ability to use and when to use it for maximum effect. There is an active threat vs. survivability trade-off. The same could be said of gearing: with the removal of defense, the trade-off between "DPS" gear and "Tank" gear became a lot more interesting. DK tanking is far more 'active' than bears, there are just a lot of meaningful choices to be made, and some thinking ahead... anticipating what runes to use, what to keep in reserve.

At least as a bear, you have LOTS of time to think about not standing in the fire patch.

[AetherMcLoud]

The DK design is interesting because they actually get some choices, deciding which ability to use and when to use it for maximum effect. There is an active threat vs. survivability trade-off. The same could be said of gearing:

Also, the more avoidance a DK gets, the worse his mastery becomes. Not really cool.

[Cortano]

Also, the more avoidance a DK gets, the worse his mastery becomes. Not really cool.

Not exactly.
The DK ability actually scales relatively well with avoidance.

The shield becomes more effective as avoidance is increased. It affects a larger percentage of the damage you would take. In that sense, it scales -extremely- well with avoidance.

In terms of healing, and the size of the shield, it does depend on the damage being taken. Much like a 30% block would block more "absolute" damage if you got hit for 100K, than you would if hit for 10K... don't let that confuse you though. You could argue that "shield block" scales negatively with armor, and I suppose you would be as accurate as saying that the DK mastery scales negatively with avoidance: however, you are still healing (or mitigating) at least the same percentage of damage that you took.

[Emojoe]

I'm slightly irked by the Bear nerfs but I don't really mind. I'am way to OP on Live, taking almost no damage between Mastery and Dodge. I do somehwat envy the Rune System of DKs but it's not as skill intensive as it seems, just need to adapt to RNG and have a firm "Hit this as a priority, than that, than that" order of moves, just like any other Tank.

As long as one tank isn't so good that all Guilds and all groups want it, I will be happy.

[Jonisawsom]

Warrior/Paladin get block, Druid gets Savage Defense, DK get Death Strike self heals and Mastery. You people really need to stop picking out 1 thing and start looking at the whole picture. Also remember that just because those are the numbers now, doesn't mean it has to stay that way.

Self healing and passive healing effects were too high so they are bringing them down. In the first tier of raiding Bears were already getting close to 200k hp. That is why we got the nerf to stam multipliers, as well as a nerf to self heals.

[jearle]

The "nerfs" or adjustments don't really effect me because once they go live it will be Cata time and everyone will be leveling and starting over at 85. Deal with the mechanics once you get to 85 and adjust then, for now its just theory since Beta is Beta.

[exochaft]

Warrior/Paladin get block, Druid gets Savage Defense, DK get Death Strike self heals and Mastery. You people really need to stop picking out 1 thing and start looking at the whole picture. Also remember that just because those are the numbers now, doesn't mean it has to stay that way.

Self healing and passive healing effects were too high so they are bringing them down. In the first tier of raiding Bears were already getting close to 200k hp. That is why we got the nerf to stam multipliers, as well as a nerf to self heals.

I think there's just a bit of irony with how the recent bear changes have progressed. We start at square one with 3.3.5 model for bears, the model gets shifted to insane power levels on the beta... and in the end, certain mechanics are the same or technically below the 3.3.5 model (such as the 4% heal from LotP is back to 3.3.5 levels, and the baseline SD ability is below what it was in 3.3.5, though mastery helps out). Be that as it may, while Blizz does sit with beyond T11 stats allocations at their disposal... c'mon, I've mentioned it several times in other posts, it's fairly obvious how well druids would scale with the initial beta values if you're holding all the cards.

Beyond all this comparison between tanks, there's still some level of irony with respect to their philosophy of avoiding "GCD spamming" of abilities. There's a difference between using abilities when they come off cooldown or when appropriate on a fight... it's another when you need to fill every GCD with a yellow melee attack to roll the dice and take your chances on activating your block mechanic. While Deathstrike does have its resource drawbacks, the ability to rely on it when you need it is very powerful. As stated in other threads, the shield blocking mechanics of warriors/paladins, while it's technically passive, can be pushed to the point where you won't take normal full-on melee hits or even need to do anything proactive to have a chance to block. Druids, however, have lost the ability to passive proc SD via Lacerate bleeds... so the system encourages button mashing.

I will call you on the 200k HP values for bears, that's only achievable using Frenzied Regen (even with the new heroic raid premades you'd be pushing 170-175kish HP with nothing but stam on the brain in bear form). If people are wondering what the stats values for bears will be with the new premade chars with minimal tweaking from the new geared premades, we're talking about 28-30% dodge range and 38-40% melee crit with 3-stack Pulverize up. Yes, I realize I'm using some vague ranges, because people will enchant/gem/reforge differently depending on what you want, but in all reality when we get to heroic raids our gear is going to be all over the place, so the above numbers are just estimates of what you'll be seeing on live if nothing changes.

[Will]

Leader of the Pack now causes you to heal for 4% of your total health and gain 4% of your maximum mana. Down from 8%.

vs

Death Strike Level 85
1 Unholy 1 Frost Melee Range

Instant
Requires Melee Weapon
A deadly attack that deals 150% weapon damage plus (((330 * 150 / 100))), healing you for 30% of the damage you have sustained during the preceding 5 sec !!!!!!!!!!!(MINIMUM OF AT LEAST 10% OF MAXIMUM HEALTH)!!!!!!!!!!!.

+

Blood Shield
Each time you heal yourself via Death Strike, you gain 50% of the amount healed as a damage absorption shield. Each point of Mastery increases the shield by an additional 6.25%.


SRSLY....W T F?

dude why on earth are you comparing a mastery to a mid-tree talent? Blood shield's tooltip is misleading - it only works on Physical attacks... I'm happy with Savage Defense, but I do admit the DS heal is tasty.

---------- Post added 2010-11-06 at 02:10 AM ----------

# Leader of the Pack now causes you to heal for 4% of your total health and gain 4% of your maximum mana. Down from 8%.

Really?

Too much nerfage at once. Sad, sad bear.

If you're a PvPer the nerf will hit home pretty hard - but in PvE it's hardly a biggie.

[Arkaea]

I love playing on my bear. It's a fun spec and I love the druid class as a whole. I'm not in the beta so I'll just be sticking it out to see how things are once we all get to 85.

[dmx87212]

The problem with this is that crit rates are going to dropping as well, lowering how many leader of the pack procs you get anyways. That doesnt seem logical.

The big thing that frustrates me, is that they lowered the mana recovered. Cats NEED that mana returned because spells are very expensive at 85, and it is there only source of regen (innervate is a complete joke). They should have made the healing 4% and the mana regen 8-10%

[Deleted]

Sad....

I really loved the nice selfheal my citty had.
One crit heals you for ~ 2,2k health, thats pretty nice in my opinion.