Top guilds seem to "cry" for nerfs after testing Cataclysm Heroic raids

[Deleted]

I felt quite surprised when I read the heroic encounter feedback from the official forums. Basically every encounter seemed "overtuned" and the people were basically crying for nerfs. Among these guys were people from for example glorious Paragon, Premonition and Vodka.

Another thing I noticed was that one of the only heroics that guilds were able to down during first day of betatesting was Tron council heroic, which a player from Forlon Legacy commented like this: "Super well tuned on heroic mode. Extremely unforgiving and complex in design."

I find it really ironic that top end guilds have moaned for harder content really long time and now they seem to think a heroic that can be downed within few first pulls during the first night of betatesting is "super well tuned". If the raids in Cataclysm don't seem to fill peoples difficulty-expectations, it's the top end guilds and betatesters who should take a look in the mirror, not the designers.

[Wolfshowl]

Proof or gtfo

[Andymion]

Have you considered the chance that the raids may actually be too hard?

[wariofan1]

That is really... pathetic. Heroic raids are supposed to be the difficulty of TBC or Classic raids, not something you can down on the first few weeks of release... Please Blizzard, ignore the whiners.

[Deleted]

Can't post any links as I haven't done enough posts in this forums. But you can go to youtube and search for Forlorn Legacy vs Tron Council Heroic and see the cata raid feedback section from official wow forums.

[Dannz]

That is really... pathetic. Heroic raids are supposed to be the difficulty of TBC or Classic raids, not something you can down on the first few weeks of release... Please Blizzard, ignore the whiners.

classics raids weren't hard, the hard part was to get 40 good players, not 20 good, and 20 that got carried, and i know, i played through vanilla, and beat it all except for 4hm, sapphirion and KT, stop with the nostalgia of vanilla being hard

[Seriss]

I find it really ironic that top end guilds have moaned for harder content really long time and now they seem to think a heroic that can be downed within few first pulls during the first night of betatesting is "super well tuned". If the raids in Cataclysm don't seem to fill peoples difficulty-expectations, it's the top end guilds and betatesters who should take a look in the mirror, not the designers.

The impression that I got during all of WotLK was that it wasn't really the top people who were whining. Simply because they knew that their gear made any given encounter easier with every passing ID.

The irony lies in the fact that people who didn't manage to kill anything significant on heroic mode were moaning about content being too easy, while not even managing to down Sindragosa normal mode themselves.

[JDPickle]

Put yourself in Blizzard's shoes. They have to cater to everyone. Blizzard has to be aware that they have to find a happy medium between difficulty, fun factor, and innovation. One of their solutions to help accommodate those three were: heroic modes and gated releases. If the top guilds are asking for nerfs, so be it. Those encounters were implemented for them anyway. When the top guilds lolstomp the hard modes within a week of release and complain about how they want more difficult encounters, just point them in the direction of the forums asking for the nerfs.

[Deleted]

Classes still arent tuned...think bear tanks.

That is really... pathetic. Heroic raids are supposed to be the difficulty of TBC or Classic raids, not something you can down on the first few weeks of release... Please Blizzard, ignore the whiners.

Top guilds are finding it hard then majority of players will never complete it

There is hard fights and then there are fights which are very RNG based and unforgiving because of it. Any fight that is designed to be hard via the use of RNG is not a well designed fight because it could be downed just that you are never getting the luck of the draw. Unless they test dungeons and give people the gear available for it...(all well and good testing a fight but if u cant gear a raid for it...think of them testing lk 25 man hc but only allowed people to go in with 251,264 gear...not going to work)

[Putress]

Mind you they all are in the best available gear for those heroics. If they get gibbed by too much damage or the dps requirement is too high then it's basicly overtuned and needs to be nerfed (slightly!)

[Enkidulgaa]

The ones complaining about easy content are the middle class.
Hard modes cater to hardcore raiders, normal modes cater to braindead monkeys and the average player is left out.
Have you ever seen a game where the only diffculty levels are easy and hard?

[mmff4]

Those who are playing in top guilds know the difference between overtuned and hard encounter. Hard mode encounters are supposed to be hard and slightly complicated not completely overtuned and almost impossible to kill.

[JDPickle]

The ones complaining about easy content are the middle class.
Hard modes cater to hardcore raiders, normal modes cater to braindead monkeys and the average player is left out.
Have you ever seen a game where the only diffculty levels are easy and hard?

I fucking hate those games! I don't believe WoW is one of them

[Deleted]

The impression that I got during all of WotLK was that it wasn't really the top people who were whining. Simply because they knew that their gear made any given encounter easier with every passing ID.

The irony lies in the fact that people who didn't manage to kill anything significant on heroic mode were moaning about content being too easy, while not even managing to down Sindragosa normal mode themselves.

The impression I got, was that mainly dpers who didn't kill much were whining. I would put myself in the whinecrowd aswell, because I did feel most bosses were way too easy, for me, as a dps. However, in 90% of the fights, the burden lies mainly on the healers, and every guild no matter how elite or new, will find that at least 75% of all wipes can in some way be related to a healer not being able to keep u, be it with the actual healing, or some mechanic because the healer was too busy focussing on the raid.

So the problem that is created this way is that simultaniously, a dps can feel like the bosses he fights are too easy, while also being unable to kill actually them, because the healers in his raid are unable to deal with it.

I'm not sure if this is solveable in any way, because even if a dps screws up his rotation, it won't wipe the raid. And many dpsers (true or not) feel that they are already pushing out the maximum they can do with what their class and gear allows them. The mechanics that apply to dpsers that can actually cause deaths or wipe the raid, are also present for healers.

So, even though a dps might not play at his best, he is far less likely to notice this, and he is inclined to think that bosses are in fact too easy.

[Kosma]

Anything "extremely unforgiving" doesn't take a couple hours to beat.

Another example of ridiculous feedback was like, "we got boss to 20%, *maybe* it's possible to kill on a perfect attempt." If anyone can get that close on the first night, of course it's possible.

However, it seemed like a lot of quality feedback was given out though, about bugs, possible exploits or ways to cheese the encounter, and mentioning some unavoidable rng mechanics. I mean, some of the top-end guild people do know what they're talking about.

[JDPickle]

The impression I got, was that mainly dpers who didn't kill much were whining. I would put myself in the whinecrowd aswell, because I did feel most bosses were way too easy, for me, as a dps. However, in 90% of the fights, the burden lies mainly on the healers, and every guild no matter how elite or new, will find that at least 75% of all wipes can in some way be related to a healer not being able to keep u, be it with the actual healing, or some mechanic because the healer was too busy focussing on the raid.

So the problem that is created this way is that simultaniously, a dps can feel like the bosses he fights are too easy, while also being unable to kill actually them, because the healers in his raid are unable to deal with it.

I'm not sure if this is solveable in any way, because even if a dps screws up his rotation, it won't wipe the raid. And many dpsers (true or not) feel that they are already pushing out the maximum they can do with what their class and gear allows them. The mechanics that apply to dpsers that can actually cause deaths or wipe the raid, are also present for healers.

So, even though a dps might not play at his best, he is far less likely to notice this, and he is inclined to think that bosses are in fact too easy.

I played mostly a healer in WoTLK. Good dps can make a raid go smoothly, bad dps can be hell for healers. I think you have a skewed perception on encounter design. I believe Blizz has made challenging encounters for all three roles. (Yes, switching off the main boss to adds is a level of difficulty to many dps'ers)

[Drakoes]

stop whining, beta is bete. They will tweak the stuff and nerf things, that's the whole point of the testing. To get feedback and see if something is hitting too hard or needs cranking down

[Detonation]

The impression that I got during all of WotLK was that it wasn't really the top people who were whining. Simply because they knew that their gear made any given encounter easier with every passing ID.

The irony lies in the fact that people who didn't manage to kill anything significant on heroic mode were moaning about content being too easy, while not even managing to down Sindragosa normal mode themselves.

This times a billion. See it all the time in trade on my server, people who still haven't even managed to get Kingslayer (Lol?) saying the current content was far too easy, and he/she was bored. Made me /facepalm everytime. :/

[Hoomin]

classics raids weren't hard, the hard part was to get 40 good players, not 20 good, and 20 that got carried, and i know, i played through vanilla, and beat it all except for 4hm, sapphirion and KT, stop with the nostalgia of vanilla being hard

I agree, classic raids weren't "Hard" persay, it was just that the itemization was crap (In fact, i just today got a trinket with no stats that deals 13 damage to attackers on an alt /lol) and getting 40 people together to cooperate was a pain in the ass.

[Deleted]

I think the "this encounter is just next to impossible" feeling is one of those things that is required for the best feeling bosskills. Even though the best players are way better than I can ever imagine, I bet even top end guilds had that feeling after fighting for example LK hc few first times, even few first weeks.

Also most of you seem to comment only on the "nerf cries" and tell that top end guilds know what they are talking. How do you feel when you read the comment about heroic Tron council? Do you personally feel that it is the difficulty level that should be referred as "super well tuned". Professor hc. was WAY harder than that encounter and it is currently referred as no-brainer (even without the buff).