Competitive Raiding

[Sflame]

Ive been looking at top guild WoL's and saw that it's kind of a toss up on who is using Fireball and Arcane for competitive raiding. Is this because the numbers are close or just that spamming Arcane Blast is boring so they go Fire? Does Arcane really beat out Fireball for competitive raiding at the moment or is it the other way around?

[Imnick]

If you mean right now as in right now on live rather than beta, I think it's more than nobody has done extensive testing and nobody can be bothered seeing as we have about three weeks until catacylsm.
So people are just going with whatever spec feels better (but not Frost because while better it is still sub-par in damage compared with the other two).

[DeathDefier]

Assuming you are talking about cataclysm.

Quote from Ekyu from Ensidia:

Fire still suffers from many mana problems and changing rotations for free scorch or swapping armor only decreases the DPS without offering a long term solution.

Arcane is a nice spec mana wise (you won't run out atleast) however the DPS output is very variable at low level of gear and the DPS while moving is crap (so is the AOE).

Frost has a lower (compared to others specs max) but steady DPS with good survivability and can also push a good burst.

I'll probably go Frost & Arcane at release if Fire remains as it is.

As for myself, I have tested frost and fire so far in the new pre-mades that have tier 11 ETC and frost seems way better to me. The burst in frost can be very nice, and the damage is the best sustained of the 3. I need to try arcane out still, but I doubt it will be much better than fire.

[Aunor]

Wright saying now as now that means icc, Fire is superior on lich king both heroic and normal since its a heavy duty movement fights i woud say its also superior at Professor putricide but on all other bosses at arcane rains supreme in my opinion.

[Deleted]

From my own experience Arcane appears to be far superior to either other specs. However I've been told by numerous Mages who are superior to me in both gear and understanding that Fire is in fact better dps. Tbh, just play what you want. I'm quite content as Arcane, despite all the stick about being a 1 button spec I enjoy working my way through the phases and making use of all of my utilities at the correct times.

[Imnick]

I raid as fire and when we did bane on ten man in my ten man heroic gear I did quite a lot more damage than an arcane mage in 25 man/25 man heroic gear however this is purely anecdotal, he might simply have been bad at playing new arcane.

[skyesfury]

Fire still suffers from many mana problems and changing rotations for free scorch or swapping armor only decreases the DPS without offering a long term solution.

Considering this statement is coming from someone in Ensidia (this is not a bash), it won't apply to 90% of the raiders out there. Most of what the top raiders of the world do when it comes to absolute min/max won't apply. The DPS decrease he's referring to is ~50-100 dps on a boss fight. When you're pulling 8-12k per boss, even 100 DPS isn't going to mean the difference between downing it and not.

I switch back and forth between Arcane and Fire while raiding based on my boredom level.

[DeathDefier]

Considering this statement is coming from someone in Ensidia (this is not a bash), it won't apply to 90% of the raiders out there. Most of what the top raiders of the world do when it comes to absolute min/max won't apply. The DPS decrease he's referring to is ~50-100 dps on a boss fight. When you're pulling 8-12k per boss, even 100 DPS isn't going to mean the difference between downing it and not.

I switch back and forth between Arcane and Fire while raiding based on my boredom level.

This isn't true at all. Try going on beta and doing your normal rotation that you do now on live and you will OOM completely within 3 minutes on a boss fight.

[skyesfury]

Comparing 80 to 85 can't really be done. It may not be apples and oranges, but it's not apples and apples either.

The implication of the statement is based on level 80. Beta, obviously, is based on 85.

[Imnick]

Comparing 80 to 85 can't really be done. It may not be apples and oranges, but it's not apples and apples either.

The implication of the statement is based on level 80. Beta, obviously, is based on 85.

He was talking about on the beta. Beta is level 85.
On the beta fire mages have mana issues.
The beta is level 85.
At level 85 fire mages have mana issues.

Do you understand now?

[zephid]

He was talking about on the beta. Beta is level 85.
On the beta fire mages have mana issues.
The beta is level 85.
At level 85 fire mages have mana issues.

Do you understand now?

I think you might have to mention that the beta is lvl85 one more time .

It is a well known fact that Fire mages have mana issues at lvl85, so much that they are forced to use Mage Armor instead of Molten Armor and even then they have problems.
The mana is not only an issue in raids but also in heroic instances.

[nimryas]

Live: I think arcane mages in the top guilds are able to go arcane for most boss fights because the bosses are downed so fast, as in te raids total dps is freaking sky high! Basicly you want to have killed the raid boss before you run out of ways to gain more mana fast, so evoc and even a mana pot will up your dps more rather then using a haste/crit pot (haste isnt a good stat anymore anyway for the arcane spec). WTB innervate!?

Beta: read other posts above ^^

[Aunor]

Live: I think arcane mages in the top guilds are able to go arcane for most boss fights because the bosses are downed so fast, as in te raids total dps is freaking sky high! Basicly you want to have killed the raid boss before you run out of ways to gain more mana fast, so evoc and even a mana pot will up your dps more rather then using a haste/crit pot (haste isnt a good stat anymore anyway for the arcane spec). WTB innervate!?

Beta: read other posts above ^^

thats so true, hmm well im using pot of wild magic at the start when i have mirrior images and 100 % mana and arc power so i get few good crits at the begining of the fight

[takolin]

I think you might have to mention that the beta is lvl85 one more time .

It is a well known fact that Fire mages have mana issues at lvl85, so much that they are forced to use Mage Armor instead of Molten Armor and even then they have problems.
The mana is not only an issue in raids but also in heroic instances.

Not always, you should compare damage with mage armour+FB vs a molten armour that involves a lot of free scorches and last time I read the beta forums, the heavy scorch rotation does more damage than the mage armour one.

[zephid]

Not always, you should compare damage with mage armour+FB vs a molten armour that involves a lot of free scorches and last time I read the beta forums, the heavy scorch rotation does more damage than the mage armour one.

This is a quote from Ekyu (Ensidia):

Fire still suffers from many mana problems and changing rotations for free scorch or swapping armor only decreases the DPS without offering a long term solution.

Arcane is a nice spec mana wise (you won't run out atleast) however the DPS output is very variable at low level of gear and the DPS while moving is crap (so is the AOE).

Frost has a lower (compared to others specs max) but steady DPS with good survivability and can also push a good burst.

I'll probably go Frost & Arcane at release if Fire remains as it is.

[Imnick]

I have a feeling frost might actually be pretty good at launch, just because it's not so dependant on gear.
Think about it, most of your rotation is just fishing for FoF procs which aren't dependant on crit or any stat you have on your gear, ice lance, frostfire bolt and deep freeze are your hard hitting abilities.
Arcane is heavily dependant on having a big mana pool to burn for longer, fire needs a lot of crits in order to proc hot streak. Frost only needs mastery.

I mean this is just a feeling, I'm not in beta and I don't know anyone that is and plays a mage, but the logic seems pretty sound to me.

[DeathDefier]

I have a feeling frost might actually be pretty good at launch, just because it's not so dependant on gear.
Think about it, most of your rotation is just fishing for FoF procs which aren't dependant on crit or any stat you have on your gear, ice lance, frostfire bolt and deep freeze are your hard hitting abilities.
Arcane is heavily dependant on having a big mana pool to burn for longer, fire needs a lot of crits in order to proc hot streak. Frost only needs mastery.

I mean this is just a feeling, I'm not in beta and I don't know anyone that is and plays a mage, but the logic seems pretty sound to me.

Also the fact that frost soft caps crit at 33.33% allowing you to stack/reforge mastery and haste very easily.

[Hallto]

Also the fact that frost soft caps crit at 33.33% allowing you to stack/reforge mastery and haste very easily.

Doesn't raidbosses have a crit resist or something, can't remember what its called. Its something around 105% crit = 100% chance to crit on a raidboss.