Necessary update to combo point system

[br0keit]

The idea that finishers will be overpowered is grossly overstated. The fact is that in an average fight (data taken from many different style fights and difficulties. Source: worldoflogs.com) the damage dealt by finishers is around 10% of their overall damage with it being obviously higher for some specs and lower for others. Take one of the best and worse fights for a rogue on live right now, Sarufang 25H and LK 25H respectively. The highest ranking in the world a rogue of any spec has achieved in one of the best fights to be a melee is 75. In one of the worst, mostly because of a lot of target switching a rogue cant even reach into the top 1000. Giving a small buff to allow more use of abilities that only account for 5-15% of the classes overall damage and it being an obviously underpowered class wont make the class overpowered.

[sicness]

The idea that finishers will be overpowered is grossly overstated. The fact is that in an average fight (data taken from many different style fights and difficulties. Source: worldoflogs.com) the damage dealt by finishers is around 10% of their overall damage with it being obviously higher for some specs and lower for others. Take one of the best and worse fights for a rogue on live right now, Sarufang 25H and LK 25H respectively. The highest ranking in the world a rogue of any spec has achieved in one of the best fights to be a melee is 75. In one of the worst, mostly because of a lot of target switching a rogue cant even reach into the top 1000. Giving a small buff to allow more use of abilities that only account for 5-15% of the classes overall damage and it being an obviously underpowered class wont make the class overpowered.

It's not about them being overpowered in pve, it's about them being overpowered in pvp. When you can swap every single one of your kidney shots onto any target you want due to combo points being stacked on the rogue then that's overpowered.

[DiscostewSM]

How would finishers be OP if the rogue were to have the combo points instead of the target? The finishers are getting no buff whatsoever, and as it is already, a rogue deals more damage to a "focus" target than to multiple targets because of the need to build up poison stacks.

Using Eviscerate on a different target would only deal more damage if the new target has less armor than the prior target, but if that were the case, wouldn't the rogue be doing focus damage on that target to deal more overall damage in the first place than to switch?

Envenom requires DP stacks, so a rogue couldn't use that immediately upon switching

Rupture does no upfront damage, giving opponents time to react.

Expose Armor does no damage, and the increase in damage is only obtained if that target is focus-fired.

Snd and Recup already have a similar mechanic to be able to use them when switching targets.

All that's left is Kidney Shot, which does no damage, but can remove a player from doing anything during it's duration. Now, how different would it be to build up combo points on a priest and use Kidney Shot on that priest rather than build up combo points on a warrior, then use Kidney Shot on the priest? Already, the rogue lost some overall damage because of the warrior's higher armor, the warrior also has the poisons on him, but the stun is the same in both situations, and both rogue stuns are not just on DRs with each other, but with other class stuns as well, muting that point. Now, this could be switched, with the priest being attacked, and the warrior being stunned, but seriously, this would only make sense of it being OP if the opponents were doing NOTHING. The rogue doesn't know what the priest and warrior will do because their resources are use-on-demand allowing them to switch at will, while the rogue requires having to focus-fire to use any of their finishers. By giving the rogue self-preserved combo points, what does the rogue gain? Not only balance with other classes, but also what other classes have already. The "element of surprise"!

Yes, you heard correctly. An attribute rogues should have had in the first place. As it is right now, with addons that can track the CDs of opponent's abilities, players can tell what an opponent is capable of doing next. The difference? Only rogues and kitty druids give themselves away with what they plan to do because of the restriction of combo points on the target, which takes a couple of seconds to build up. A rogue/druid's "element of surprise" when initiating an attack from the shadows is done how many times in a set period of time? How often does Vanish work? That aspect has been fading since mid-vanilla, and continues to do so.

It's not about them being overpowered in pve, it's about them being overpowered in pvp. When you can swap every single one of your kidney shots onto any target you want due to combo points being stacked on the rogue then that's overpowered.

Every single one of our 20sec CD Kidney Shots, which share DRs with every single stun in the game?

[Minky]

That's just what rogues need... better yet why not just have the game autoplay your toon for you as well since that's practically where the class is going.

Meeting one extreme with another makes you look pretty juvenile.
Combo stacking on the Rogue would be much easier to handle; but it isn't what the class needs. While you may not think so, Rogues do need that limiter on where they direct their damage or control.
Blizzard gave us a minute CD to use in the right way. If you use that ability badly, you won't get as much use out of it as a skilled Rogue would.

I much prefer this rendition over Combo stacking on the Rogue; which would remove target choice completely. Rogues are a momentum class. If you want a direct burst class, play Ret or Elem.

[Auton]

This would be like the current implementation of the paladin holy power system with the exception that rogue CPs will fall off a certain time after exiting combat (maybe 5 seconds?).

Not agreeing or disagreeing with your assessment, just wanted to point out that paladin holy power DOES decay out of combat.

[sicness]

Every single one of our 20sec CD Kidney Shots, which share DRs with every single stun in the game?

I was using kidney shot as an example, the other finishers apply as well. However, yes a 6 second stun on a 20 second cool down used on any target you like at random is overpowered.

A few things you fail to address in your post by saying that rogues and cat druids 'give away' who they're focusing on is the fact that combo points aren't restrictive, meaning you can start building on another target if you choose without using up the previous ones. The fact that you can use up your combo points before swapping on abilities like slice and dice to increase dps, and finally the simple fact that no one sees how many combo points you have built up on your target.

Honestly, anyone who has witnessed any serious beta arena has seen how powerful redirect can be with lining up CC chains on healers. Having that ability always capable is overpowered.

[DiscostewSM]

I was using kidney shot as an example, the other finishers apply as well. However, yes a 6 second stun on a 20 second cool down used on any target you like at random is overpowered.

Your response makes it sound like the ability itself, not the combo point suggestion, is OP.

[sicness]

Your response makes it sound like the ability itself, not the combo point suggestion, is OP.

Let me rephrase then. The ability to use kidney shot without having to build combo points on the same target every single time it's available is overpowered. Go watch some pvp arena videos of rogues using redirect to kidney shot the healer then sap them along with their teammate's CC to keep a healer locked down for a ridiculous amount of time. Being able to do that every 20 seconds would be overpowered.

[shadowboy]

nevermind

[Deleted]

I would keep combo points as they are since they really are our signature (to me) with also energy.
Managing combo points is a part of the fun of the class and help to distinghish a little good rogues who know when their target will die from bad ones who cannot.
It is not fun when everything is given...

[K4ge]

And once again another class gets our mechanic, just twice as good.

[ruzhy6]

A few things you fail to address in your post by saying that rogues and cat druids 'give away' who they're focusing on is the fact that combo points aren't restrictive, meaning you can start building on another target if you choose without using up the previous ones. The fact that you can use up your combo points before swapping on abilities like slice and dice to increase dps, and finally the simple fact that no one sees how many combo points you have built up on your target.

I agree with the CD on it.

On that note, yea we can start building up CBs on a new target without restriction, but you fail to mention that we immediately lose any we had before on a separate target. Can only have CBs on one target at a time.

About people seeing your combo points. Really? If there isn't a mod for this for pvp it sounds pretty easy to write. It would just be a means of tracking the combat log, who the rogue using CB building and finishers on. I mean, there is tracking for every CD anyone uses in mods.

[Chyrch]

The ability to use kidney shot without having to build combo points on the same target every single time it's available is overpowered.

Rogues would then have a melee range Hammer of Justice on shorter CD. I'm all for making Kidney Shot a longer CD.

My issue with redirect is it seems very clunky. Most of the new class abilities do actually. Blizzards attempt at making rotations more complex was admirable, but poorly implemented, in my opinion. Implementing combo points that stick to the rogue with a kind of combo point decay (in and out of combat) could aid in restoring some of the smoothness to the class.

[Kesther]

We have deadly poison that we need to stack.

Paladins still have the better of the two systems.

Are you serious? Deadly poison stacks so fast and passively you can hardly incorporate it as a factor into discussing which system is better.

[K4ge]

Err, have you ever pvped? Because deadly poison not proccing or dropping is (or used to be) a serious problem, especially if the enemy had a brain and cced the rogue every now and then

[DiscostewSM]

Deadly Poison has a 30% chance per successful hit of applying a stack, 50% if Assassination spec. With a 1.4 speed weapon as Assassination, it would be an average of 2.8 seconds per application, but RNG can raise or lower that. DP is best when used on a fast weapon, which will most likely be placed in the OH. Assassination does have the advantage of Mutilate, which can also proc it, so that average of 2.8 second will indeed be less.

But, for the other two specs, DP application is just 30%, for which on a 1.4 speed weapon would amount to an average of 4.7 second per application, more or less with RNG. Combat can have a slightly faster average with Main Gauche procs, if DP can proc from those.

Can always switch poisons between MH and OH, but not only would that amount to less DP applications even with specials proccing (since many are based on MH attacks), but that would also reduce the frequency of the other poison proccing.

Now, this is without adding Haste into the equation, but if you're adding Haste for rogues, then you must also add it into equations for Paladins as well.

[Neichus]

I've got a distinct feeling I'll get attacked for this, but I think that the reason is very simply summed in the last sentence of a recent Ghostcrawler post:

Remember, our goal isn't necessarily to try to make things as easy as possible for you.

In my experience as a Rogue, managing combo points between targets is one of the things that differentiates a good Rogue from a mediocre one. It's an aspect of the class that makes it more interesting. Note: not more powerful. That's the problem I think far too many players have is that they look at a "non-optimal" system and think that Blizzard is in the wrong for not making it "better." Buffing a class is trivial for Blizzard, and contrary to what many people think having fewer restrictions does not equate to being more fun. What they need are systems that you can go wrong with. Systems that new Rogues can mess up on but good Rogues know how to manage and work with. It gives their game depth and a learning curve.

Now, if Rogues were in a place where there was absolutely NO way for them to manage target switching then I'd be concerned. But that just isn't the case. Understanding time-until-death and modifying your actions appropriately can smooth over the majority of target transitions, and Redirect is there when you make a mistake. This is where I think a lot of people misunderstand Redirect. It isn't meant to replace the target switching tactics we've used for the last six years; in fact, it's hardly worth it for Assassination and Subtlety if you were already transitioning properly (only thing that makes it appealing to Combat is the Bandit's Guile aspect). On Beta I found I mostly used it for when something died unexpectedly fast and I had to recover my CPs from a corpse so that I didn't have to start from scratch again.

So in summary, I don't think it's necessarily a balance issue (although I wouldn't write that off entirely for PvP). I think it's a purposeful design that gives the class more depth than it would have with self-CPs.

[K4ge]

I didn't have a big problem with combo points staying on one target. In a super fast arena environment like wotlk it could get frustrating, but I was ok with it.

But giving paladins combo points that not only aren't target bound, but that also have a WORKING interface... that just adds insult to injury.

[Deleted]

@Neichus
I agree with you

@K4ge
I would also agree with you : giving to paladins what a lot of rogues were asking for years sounds like an insult to all these rogues. At the very least, this is bad communication from Blizzard, at worse, this is just stupidity...

[Neichus]

@K4ge
I would also agree with you : giving to paladins what a lot of rogues were asking for years sounds like an insult to all these rogues. At the very least, this is bad communication from Blizzard, at worse, this is just stupidity...

Well, I think Holy Power is a lot less central to Paladins than Combo Points are to Rogues. They only have two baseline Holy Power abilities (Word of Glory and Inquisition). Each of the specs has a single talented Holy Power ability beyond this (Light of Dawn, Shield of the Righteous, Templar's Verdict). Holy Power is also far more simple since nearly every ability is used at 3 charges; it's more like Maelstrom Weapon that's under slightly more player control (for Retribution). Blizzard's even emphasized that a bit of slop on the part of Holy Power usage won't doom a Paladin to poor performance, especially given how proc'y the system can be as Retribution.

So I balk at the Holy Power/Combo Point comparison because I just don't think it accurate reflects the role each of them plays in the class or the relative complexity of the Combo Point system relative to Holy Power.