Skipping raid content again?

[wayne62682]

From what I've heard I dislike the attunements.. the idea that you HAVE to go through the earlier raids to get to the newer raids. I wouldn't mind having the gear relatively close though, so while you don't HAVE to do the earlier raids you have a reason to do them nonetheless and you can still get upgrades, as opposed to being able to bypass them completely.

As it stands right now, in WOTLK, there is no reason to go to Naxx, Ulduar or (arguably) ToC for gear upgrades. Either you go solely to faceroll/zerg the content for achievements and JPs, or for mounts/titles (not quite a zerg/faceroll), or you don't go at all. There's no reason someone needs to go to Naxx, even as a fresh 80, for gear upgrades and, ironically, as a fresh 80 they're less likely to get into a Naxx run now than when Naxx was current (because everyone wants to faceroll/zerg Naxx). Same with Ulduar. There's no reason to even DO the content from a "Hey I could use an upgrade from this low-level heroic piece I've been using" standpoint, because you can do easier content and get better gear.

THAT is what I'm afraid of happening; it won't matter to me personally (at least on my main and primary alts) because I'm going to be there at Cata's launch but I know what I went through in Wrath; I tried to gear up from heroics (as in the drops, not badges) and then when I was looking for something to progress to I got told that nobody bothers with that junk, just run heroics for badges.

[Deleted]

Does only 1 person on this thread actually understand the point system? In answer to your question old content WILL still be run in cata as the old raid bosses will still drop valor points, just a reduced number of points. Meaning that those who want to gear up faster will run old raids to get the valor points. There is supposedly a cap on the amount you can earn in a week, (not sure if this is still the case) but if you're running 25mans you earn more valor points anyway, so those running 10 mans will want to run the old content to reach the same amount of points obtained by the 25mans.

[Cernunnos]

From what I've heard I dislike the attunements.. the idea that you HAVE to go through the earlier raids to get to the newer raids. I wouldn't mind having the gear relatively close though, so while you don't HAVE to do the earlier raids you have a reason to do them nonetheless and you can still get upgrades, as opposed to being able to bypass them completely.

The other problem with TBC's attunements were certain fights were generally hard. Vashj and KT were such cockblock fights for some guilds. They were harder than many of the tier 6 bosses in Hyjal and BT.

Putting in in wrath terms would be like to get into TOC you had to kill Yogg'Saron. Many guilds/players were not able to kill Yogg in ulduar gear, and still couldn't do it until late into togc and ICC.

Anub'arak in TOC is another example, Imagine having to kill Anub'arak to get into ICC. Anub in item level appropriate gear is/was haarder than most of the first wing (pre nerf marrowgar was a bitch for some people), and the non wing bosses of Plague, Blood and Frost wings.

TBC attunements locked guilds that couldnt progress into tier 5. They didn't progress until the badge gear was almost as good as tier 6, and Zul'Aman was released.

Of course nothing beats Vanilla, even without attunements, very few people saw Naxxramas 40 man.

[Deleted]

cry me a river

Learn to read, I have enough time to do all raids, but I know enough people who don't.
Why shall these people be banished from end content raids?

Many "Casual" Players have more skill then "Hardcore" Players. Just not the time to play that often.


Greetz

[HavokHeart]

TBH, I loved the way TBC went about with raid progression. With the concept of having to go through heroics -> t4 -> t5-> t6-> sunwell, makes gear more special and being on the higher tier raid actually feels like an accomplishment, not something regularly pugged or a raid that 90% of the population will be able to enter the second it is released.

call it nostalgia if you want, but make so if you truely want to see all raid content you have to put in some sort of effort to see the top levels

Blizzard chose to get away from this and have stated numerous times they will not go back. The way thing were back then were if u went in 1/2 or 3/4 through the expansion you would probably never see SWP. Or Hyjal/BT even. Cataclysm will have badges and tier gear/etc available to all casual players.

The gear was not any more special because only you had it. The difference between the people with the best gear now is players who do have some form of skill and may not have all the time in the world to camp out on the computer for 10 hours a day(like classic & TBC required).

---------- Post added 2010-11-13 at 08:20 PM ----------

Of course nothing beats Vanilla, even without attunements, very few people saw Naxxramas 40 man.

I'm pretty sure you had to be attuned to get into Naxx40. Something about getting exalted with the Argent Dawn.

[sicness]

From what I've heard I dislike the attunements.. the idea that you HAVE to go through the earlier raids to get to the newer raids. I wouldn't mind having the gear relatively close though, so while you don't HAVE to do the earlier raids you have a reason to do them nonetheless and you can still get upgrades, as opposed to being able to bypass them completely.

As it stands right now, in WOTLK, there is no reason to go to Naxx, Ulduar or (arguably) ToC for gear upgrades. Either you go solely to faceroll/zerg the content for achievements and JPs, or for mounts/titles (not quite a zerg/faceroll), or you don't go at all. There's no reason someone needs to go to Naxx, even as a fresh 80, for gear upgrades and, ironically, as a fresh 80 they're less likely to get into a Naxx run now than when Naxx was current (because everyone wants to faceroll/zerg Naxx). Same with Ulduar. There's no reason to even DO the content from a "Hey I could use an upgrade from this low-level heroic piece I've been using" standpoint, because you can do easier content and get better gear.

THAT is what I'm afraid of happening; it won't matter to me personally (at least on my main and primary alts) because I'm going to be there at Cata's launch but I know what I went through in Wrath; I tried to gear up from heroics (as in the drops, not badges) and then when I was looking for something to progress to I got told that nobody bothers with that junk, just run heroics for badges.

I think this will change for the better in Cataclysm though. With tiers not having as big of an increase in stats due to ilvl limitations then doing old content should be much more beneficial if you're willing to do it.

[niteline]

I really hope they make some of the gear really good so there still will be a reason to do old content
Currently people still farm the 5 mans toc/icc for their trinkets. I really hope we get some of that stuff in raids now.
I do think that the TBC exp gave us alot more easy obtainable badge gear. and i hope we do get better gear from raids then vendors now

[HavokHeart]

From what I've heard I dislike the attunements.. the idea that you HAVE to go through the earlier raids to get to the newer raids. I wouldn't mind having the gear relatively close though, so while you don't HAVE to do the earlier raids you have a reason to do them nonetheless and you can still get upgrades, as opposed to being able to bypass them completely.

As it stands right now, in WOTLK, there is no reason to go to Naxx, Ulduar or (arguably) ToC for gear upgrades. Either you go solely to faceroll/zerg the content for achievements and JPs, or for mounts/titles (not quite a zerg/faceroll), or you don't go at all. There's no reason someone needs to go to Naxx, even as a fresh 80, for gear upgrades and, ironically, as a fresh 80 they're less likely to get into a Naxx run now than when Naxx was current (because everyone wants to faceroll/zerg Naxx). Same with Ulduar. There's no reason to even DO the content from a "Hey I could use an upgrade from this low-level heroic piece I've been using" standpoint, because you can do easier content and get better gear.

THAT is what I'm afraid of happening; it won't matter to me personally (at least on my main and primary alts) because I'm going to be there at Cata's launch but I know what I went through in Wrath; I tried to gear up from heroics (as in the drops, not badges) and then when I was looking for something to progress to I got told that nobody bothers with that junk, just run heroics for badges.

So the question comes up.
Do we want players to be able to do all the raids of the expansion in order and force long time subscribers to keep going back to old content or do we want to let new players jump right into the new content and let the players who already went through the old content many times forget about old stuff.

The second option is so obviously better(from a business standpoint) it is mind bottling.. you know like when all your thoughts bounce around in your head like there trapped in a bottle.

[Epiclurker]

The simply reality of the situation is that people don't want to run the old raids when new ones come out. That isn't a Blizzard issue, its a player issue. In BC guilds got tired of having to attune new people when they lost raiders. It was viewed as a useless process that simply slowed them down. People say Ulduar is one of the best raids ever but they left it behind when TOC came out. Old raids will be skipped because of a lack of people to run them. People raid for gear so they go where the best gear is. A new player can want to run old raids but after a week or two of not being able to get a group they will move on.
IMO,The main reason so few people saw Naxx 40 was due to the insane amount of Argent Dawn rep that was needed to even get the key. Add in the need for certain potions, buff foods, resistance gear, etc, and you end up spending more time farming then you did raiding.

[sicness]

The simply reality of the situation is that people don't want to run the old raids when new ones come out. That isn't a Blizzard issue, its a player issue. In BC guilds got tired of having to attune new people when they lost raiders. It was viewed as a useless process that simply slowed them down. People say Ulduar is one of the best raids ever but they left it behind when TOC came out. Old raids will be skipped because of a lack of people to run them. People raid for gear so they go where the best gear is. A new layer can want to run old raids but after a week or two of not being able to get a group they will move on.
IMO,The main reason so few people saw Naxx 40 was due to the insane amount of Argent Dawn rep that was needed to even get the key. Add in the need for certain potions, buff foods, resistance gear, etc, and you end up spending more time farming then you did raiding.

Exactly, it was actually high level raiders complaining about having to do old content to gear up/attune new players.

[dooditsprinny]

press start
level one
you beat level 1
level 2
you beat level 2
you got second best gear in game
???????
level 8
you beat the game hurray!


terrible game design

[FattGuy]

press start
level one
you beat level 1
level 2
you beat level 2
you got second best gear in game
???????
level 8
you beat the game hurray!


terrible game design

OMG People like you annoy me so much! All you do is complain when you probably just suck as a player. Complain when Blizzard is choosing new ideas that try to help everyone out as much as possible than crappy old ideas that just piss off a large amount of individuals that just want to have fun. Your stupid, bad, and useless.

[Oweena]

When I hit 80 there was no "entry-level raid" it was farm heroics until my eyes bled

You do know in TBC it was quicker to obtain gear that way than run karazhan. before 2.4 raids didn't even drop badges of justice

[Epiclurker]

press start
level one
you beat level 1
level 2
you beat level 2
you got second best gear in game
???????
level 8
you beat the game hurray!


terrible game design

pres start
find group, beat dungeon level 1
find group, beat dungeon level 2
look for group, look for group, look for group, realize that you are way behind the curve and none of the higher geared player want to do the content you need
keep looking for a group for 2 weeks
give up and skip the content


welcome to the world of raiding

[zingar]

the problem is 5man heroic badges.
in TBC yea you could skip content if you had a good guild but otherwise you couldnt. and the badge gear was pretty bad compared to raids AS IT SHOULD BE.

the problem with wotlk is that they kept updating badges (same will happen in cata) so the same crappy 5 man heroics were actually giving better gear as time passed by and so the first tier of raids became useless (except for the badges since they were getting upgraded as well but why bother doing a raid if you can get the same badges in a 5man)

[mysticx]

I really hope they make some of the gear really good so there still will be a reason to do old content
Currently people still farm the 5 mans toc/icc for their trinkets. I really hope we get some of that stuff in raids now.
I do think that the TBC exp gave us alot more easy obtainable badge gear. and i hope we do get better gear from raids then vendors now

Well, there's always weapons to be had from raids (Only offhanders for heroism-emblems in Wrath), and trinkets have their "highs and lows" too, ask DPS-casters how they like their triumph/frost trinkets, also: no heroic-level gear from emblems/points, in my opinion emblem/point items should be early or middle-level of the raid-tier they represent, that keeps them as gap-fillers or for starting raiders, not actual replacements fpr raid-loot

[Deleted]

Well, there's always weapons to be had from raids (Only offhanders for heroism-emblems in Wrath), and trinkets have their "highs and lows" too, ask DPS-casters how they like their triumph/frost trinkets, also: no heroic-level gear from emblems/points, in my opinion emblem/point items should be early or middle-level of the raid-tier they represent, that keeps them as gap-fillers or for starting raiders, not actual replacements fpr raid-loot

In my opinion, emblems/point gere isn't a replacement, for example, you got T10 for emblems, but T10 264 just in Raids and also T10 277 (Hero Raid) and T10 for emblems isn't nearly as good as the other t10 sets.
So it's just an Option to get into Raids, because many people want to play another class to cataclysm so it's an easy way to get an alt equipped, and you all seem to forget that it's just that easy since the justice points were released. All the time before you needed to raid and do daily hero AND weekly to see you first t10 after 2 Raids + every weekly and every daily.

I like the way it's now ^^

[Waruins]

Things have changed bro. Cataclysm will teach players mechanics. Regardless of the fact that there will be tier skips each patch release, and players will be introduced raid gear equal to the level last patch, the heroics in the game have become so much harder. They will teach you how to play your class.

Don't listen to these dip shit ass holes that say, oh casuals will just get easy stuff again. In order to get into heroics and raids, you are going to have to do lv. 333 blue gear from Normals, Reputation, et cetera, than get your rares (depends if your in patch 4.03 (Tier11)) or Epics from heroics (If your in patch 4.1), then you can experience current raid content.

In my opinion, this is good. Teaching players how to play can psychologically help them in real life (since the common stereotype for baddies is that they fail in real life as well. I would know, I was one of them). Players that come to the game late will get their start of rares and epics and experience raid content. The new guild system will also help motivate players to help each other, for everyone will gain benefits for doing so.

So on and so on. I am glad this game is getting better, they learned their mistakes and they are making sure everyone is enjoying the game, even though they said that the majority of hardcore players will enjoy the game more than casuals.

Agree with this 1000 times. It is good that GC is finally recognizing his design leadership has not been up to the task of teaching players mechanics and using all their abilities to get through them. design has made the playerbase lethargic and apathetic. i applaud them for trying to fix this.

Somewhat incorrect, heroics will not drops epics no, but blue set...HOWEVER you will be able to get some maybe 1-2 epics from world bosses.
Rogues will be able to get daggers/1hs from pick locking.

It is about time they realized that blue dungeon sets were incredibly awesome and added a lot of value to dungeon progression. they gave players an appreciation for both rare gear and epic gear. that appreciation vanishes when epics are no longer rare and become too common, because it diminishes the value of all classes of items beneath it.

You misinterpreted what they said I think. For the first tier (tier 11) epics will be meaningful and heroics will not drop any and you won't be able to obtain them from outside of raids. However, as soon as tier 12 is introduced you will be able to purchase the tier 11 set, and likely the equivalent valor point gear as well, from justice points that you obtain by running heroics.

They are happy with this system and have stated they completely intend to keep it in game because it allows people to raid the most current content, something they feel everyone should be able to experience if they choose.

and this will be the thorn that undoes everything they are trying to fix above. Players can still do all the most current content, whether you handicap your content, force them to do repetitive content for points, or in any way give them short cuts (not alternatives, but short cuts) to the main prize. it is their choice. it is design that should entice them into it, motivate them into your raids, reward them for effort. When designers start giving out short cuts and hand outs its a sure sign that they have no ideas on how to design content that players can get through on their own. it shows a lack of confidence in the design. and thats bad for all of us. GC has been notorious for undoing his own work. Improving one thing while boosting another so that the improvement is insignificant or overshadowed.