Retribution - PVP Feedback

[meliancill]

you forget my friend, ret paladins are insane off healers in bgs atm with WoG, mine is crit healing 25k with selfless healer, you may not bring the buffs but you bring utility, HoF is pricelss for a flag runer HoP is insane if your healing is being droped by any melee, HoS is grate agen for flag runers or simply lowering the damage on a person you dont want to die. any group worth any skill will still bring paladins since we are the only class that bring so much group utility ( active utility ). when i do premades with my friends they always bring me over another player because even though i dont bring damage or ms or slows what i do bring is more valuable were it counts since like i said, paladins are the only people that bring it. and so many other classes fill in the slows, damage, and ms.

start looking at what you have that will contribute instead of what you dont have.

[Simplistic]

you forget my friend, ret paladins are insane off healers in bgs atm with WoG, mine is crit healing 25k with selfless healer, you may not bring the buffs but you bring utility, HoF is pricelss for a flag runer HoP is insane if your healing is being droped by any melee, HoS is grate agen for flag runers or simply lowering the damage on a person you dont want to die. any group worth any skill will still bring paladins since we are the only class that bring so much group utility ( active utility ). when i do premades with my friends they always bring me over another player because even though i dont bring damage or ms or slows what i do bring is more valuable were it counts since like i said, paladins are the only people that bring it. and so many other classes fill in the slows, damage, and ms.

start looking at what you have that will contribute instead of what you dont have.

yeah hand of sacrifice is sweet how it lasts 12s and shield only lasts 8. I bring suicide, apparently, as a viable contribution.

[meliancill]

simplistic you have shown to me that nomater what i say you wont look threw it or listen in any way so this will be my last post concerning you.

HoS is over powered, reguardless of how long it lasts it is still 100% of your total hp, what other class brings a 38k bubble every 2 min? you think 2 dimentional, you need to start looking at it and seeing what it ACTUALY does and not what the tooltip says.

and as for the suicide, have you ever ben in a raid guild that actualy has you use that as a cooldown on a boss fight? if so you would know that HoS + bubble = no damage taken by you

[Simplistic]

simplistic you have shown to me that nomater what i say you wont look threw it or listen in any way so this will be my last post concerning you.

HoS is over powered, reguardless of how long it lasts it is still 100% of your total hp, what other class brings a 38k bubble every 2 min? you think 2 dimentional, you need to start looking at it and seeing what it ACTUALY does and not what the tooltip says.

and as for the suicide, have you ever ben in a raid guild that actualy has you use that as a cooldown on a boss fight? if so you would know that HoS + bubble = no damage taken by you

yeah I guess I'll stop pointing out flaws in your arguments. I mean when is the last time you played ret? Your last sentence alone shows it hasn't been recently. Do you not understand that if the effect of HOS hasn't been cancelled by the time DS wears off, you will take damage?

[Degenerator]

"My statements about how retributions paladins are reacting to the changes is from my experience reading those reactions...so it's empirical. "
- is NOT empirical.

"My statements about how retribution paladins are reacting to the 4.01 changes is based off of my direct experiences of their reactions"
- IS empirical

I think you are infact the one with the phony ego, you were inaccurate in your first statement.

[Simplistic]

"My statements about how retributions paladins are reacting to the changes is from my experience reading those reactions...so it's empirical. "
- is NOT empirical.

"My statements about how retribution paladins are reacting to the 4.01 changes is based off of my direct experiences of their reactions"
- IS empirical

I think you are infact the one with the phony ego, you were inaccurate in your first statement.

lmao. Seriously? You're attempting to make this distinction? I mean...wow. Reading players' reactions on the forums = direct experience of those reactions. The statements are saying the same things.

I mean maybe you might have some sort of argument that me reading those reactions isn't actual experience of them, but then we'd be getting into a much larger debate over what counts as true experience...I don't think you're making that argument.

[Degenerator]

lmao. Seriously? You're attempting to make this distinction? I mean...wow. Reading players' reactions on the forums = direct experience of those reactions. The statements are saying the same things.

I mean maybe you might have some sort of argument that me reading those reactions isn't actual experience of them, but then we'd be getting into a much larger debate over what counts as true experience...I don't think you're making that argument.

Its a pretty huge distinction, and one defined by language not me. On one hand you say you READ peoples experiences. On the other hand you say you experienced these things YOURSELF. Stop trying to make excuses. I had every right to think you dont even play a paladin by your first statement.

Or, is reading about someones experiences now the same as experiencing them yourself?

Empirical is to experience something with your own senses. To actually observe or experiement. Reading about it, IS NOT empirical.

Edit - There is no debate as to what counts as true experience. We both know what it is, your just trying to cloud over that.

[Simplistic]

Its a pretty huge distinction, and one defined by language not me. On one hand you say you READ peoples experiences. On the other hand you say you experienced these things YOURSELF. Stop trying to make excuses. I had every right to think you dont even play a paladin by your first statement.

Or, is reading about someones experiences now the same as experiencing them yourself?

Empirical is to experience something with your own senses. To actually observe or experiement. Reading about it, IS NOT empirical.

Edit - There is no debate as to what counts as true experience. We both know what it is, your just trying to cloud over that.

Unless of course forum posts by ret paladins are themselves reactions by ret paladins to the 4.01 changes. Which...they...are.

And just to emphasize your last statement...lol. Really?

[Degenerator]

Unless of course forum posts by ret paladins are themselves reactions by ret paladins to the 4.01 changes. Which...they...are.

They can react and post all they want. If they havent experienced the changes first hand, its not empirical. I like you Simplistic, you are quite possibly as stubborn as I am <3.

[Huntingbear_grimbatol]

Don't worry, that balances out the fact that my mangle and shreds only hit for 1.5-2k crits.

wth? my druid alt with 5k gs has rake crits for 6k and rip crits for 4k and punce for lolwut 1400 damage crits. all that i can put up on anyone in 6 seconds and then run away and restealth and do it again, if it's a healer i just go bearform and do a bash then back to catform restart the rake and go for a skull bash or cat stun. not really hard.

[Simplistic]

They can react and post all they want. If they havent experienced the changes first hand, its not empirical. I like you Simplistic, you are quite possibly as stubborn as I am <3.

I'm not being stubborn. You just didn't think that forum posts counted as "reactions" when you originally started to argue. They clearly are. My reading them is my own direct experience of those reactions. It's empirical. To a certain extent, sure, if they themselves haven't actually played the post 4.01 changes I guess you have a point. But I would argue that it's fairly obvious that most people who are posting about the ret changes post 4.01 have actually had a chance to log on and play them.

The bottom line is still the same: Most long time rets seem to dislike post 4.01 ret. On the contrary, most people I see that like post 4.01 ret are new to ret or in some capacity have no idea what they are doing. Even beyond that it isn't then numbers that are bothering people, it's the mechanics. They seem clunky, rushed and counter-productive as a whole.

[Huntingbear_grimbatol]

As some say prot paladin do very average now, but only because we heal like 75% of the time while we try to close gaps, word of glory on 3 stacks crit heals 17k for me + holy talent for another 5k then i can do a fast flash of light for another 10k. the damage and mobility is the same as retri but retri misses the huge word of glory heals and a ranged silence.

Retri alone has some decent damage 1v1 if we dont meet a ranged, or warrior, dk, rogues and feral druids.. Yes we can pop wings and get automaticly 10-17k damage every 6 seconds but theres currently 2 classes with offensive disspell, mages spellsteal and lock pet that eats that instantly anyways. People cry about hammer of wrath critting 15k+ every 6 secons on a 2 min cd. what about crying on mages doing that 24/7 and still have silence, snares, good cc, absorbs, infinite mana.. the funny fact is people will allways hate paladins because somewhere in the history of wow retpaladins was actually really good in pvp and they had 3 healthpools. 100% - LoH - 100% - Bubble - 100%. Things are very different now.

[Degenerator]

I'm not being stubborn. You just didn't think that forum posts counted as "reactions" when you originally started to argue. They clearly are. My reading them is my own direct experience of those reactions. It's empirical. To a certain extent, sure, if they themselves haven't actually played the post 4.01 changes I guess you have a point. But I would argue that it's fairly obvious that most people who are posting about the ret changes post 4.01 have actually had a chance to log on and play them.

The bottom line is still the same: Most long time rets seem to dislike post 4.01 ret. On the contrary, most people I see that like post 4.01 ret are new to ret or in some capacity have no idea what they are doing. Even beyond that it isn't then numbers that are bothering people, it's the mechanics. They seem clunky, rushed and counter-productive as a whole.

" Temperature, as measured by an accurate, well calibrated thermometer, is empirical evidence. By contrast, non-empirical evidence is subjective, depending on the observer. Following the previous example, observer A might truthfully report that a room is warm, while observer B might truthfully report that the same room is cool, though both observe the same reading on the thermometer. The use of empirical evidence negates this effect of personal (i.e., subjective) experience.

[phazedin]

Can we get back to Ret pallies and away from semantic pissing contests please?

now....back to talking about me....

[Vuagnon]

Can we get back to Ret pallies and away from semantic pissing contests please?

Indeed.

[belfpala]

Can we get back to Ret pallies and away from semantic pissing contests please?

Yeah.

Basically, we still have all the weaknesses we've always had (except for the addition of Rebuke, which is nice). However, we're even more kitable than ever with the removal of magic cleansing. LAotL helps a little bit, but not enough. Also, our new combat system hurts us quite a bit against kiters as it can be difficult to even get HP to be able to burst.

But the changes have created some new issues. Our self-healing is almost non-existent now, with the removal of JoL and instant FoL procs. The main issue is that WoG makes us sacrifice our main nuke. It's only advantageous to use it if either: it heals for more than our enemy can do damage in the time we get back to 3 HP; or, if using it will keep us alive long enough to kill the enemy (but then we should probably just use TV instead unless we're being kited) or have something like HoJ or HoF come off cooldown. The former is only true if we outgear our enemy by quite a bit. The latter happens, but it's random whether we'll have enough HP when the right moment appears. As a consequence, ret paladins are among the lowest in healing done in BGs I've done lately. And I would wager a lot of that healing comes between fights from regular cast time heals.

I haven't done level 85 PvP yet, so I'm reserving final judgment for later.

[Venerable]

"the bottom line is that blizzard failed miserably to balance pvp at 80 in 4.01. The answer why: they don't care. Blizzard hedged their bets that most ppl wouldn't quit just b/c pvp was terribly broken for two months and would instead wait it out for cataclysm. They were probably right. It's still pretty pathetic the state of things; probably the worst pvp has ever been....ever. "

Its a well known fact that nothing is balanced for 80 in 4.0.1. Blizzard stated that themselves. Dont see how they failed there.

They failed in the fact that they are still charging us a monthly fee for a game they admit won't be working properly for 3-4 months.

As a company, if they are charging us a monthly fee then this game should be functional at all times, not sometime in the future.

[Degenerator]

They failed in the fact that they are still charging us a monthly fee for a game they admit won't be working properly for 3-4 months.

As a company, if they are charging us a monthly fee then this game should be functional at all times, not sometime in the future.

You dont have to pay. You can wait for Cata launch, and honestly, there is nothing in the game that isnt functioning.

OT - 4.0.1 is a mess for pvp, same when pre wotlk patch hit. It will not be the same in Cata.

[Kampret]

I really dislike holy power. There are times in pvp when I hit Judgment, CS, and then.....wait for either those 2 to be off cd or wait for our 3hp nuke.

And yeah, if AW is on cd , i basically just play around with my fingers.

[Simplistic]

" Temperature, as measured by an accurate, well calibrated thermometer, is empirical evidence. By contrast, non-empirical evidence is subjective, depending on the observer. Following the previous example, observer A might truthfully report that a room is warm, while observer B might truthfully report that the same room is cool, though both observe the same reading on the thermometer. The use of empirical evidence negates this effect of personal (i.e., subjective) experience.

Not to derail this thread any further, but I have to bite. Yes, I agree with this definition of empirical. But it supports me rather than you. The actual responses (or reactions) that I was reading are not, in fact, empirical. Any person commenting on the status of retribution paladins post 4.01, well, their comments would be their own. My assessment of those reactions, however, is empirical. I simply said that most paladins who supported the post 4.01 retribution paladin were not playing at a high-level. And many, if not all, of the high-end paladins that I've seen reacting, have not. My assessment is not subjective, it's objective based on whether they support the post 4.01 paladin or not vs. at what level they play WOW.

To clarify further, and in-line with your definition above, the actual feelings of the people in the room regarding whether or not it was warm or not would not be empirical, I agree. If, however, you were in the room doing a survey of males vs. females (or whatever variable you like) and who thought the room was either warm or cold in relation to that...well that would be empirical.