For those who don't understand why they nerfed Recuperate...

[thetermanter]

lol that was funny to watch ^_^

[Evolixe]

Well honestly, the HP gain even in combat or mut was quite significant, not only in pvp, but also in pve. And you can chain it while levelling.

We basically didnt need first aid anymore, dont know how that is now though, as i havnt bothered the beta for over 2weeks..

[Voltair]

To be fair, that warrior was utterly terrible and his partner did nothing to help him at all in killing the rogue outside of a stun here and there

Also, there's a reason that Recuperate gives 12 energy per 3 seconds, it's because the rogue has no other form of energy regen outside of Relentless Strikes which all specs dip into, without the energy regen tacked on sub rogues would be utterly terrible, like pre-4.0

Venomous Wounds for Mut and Combat Potency/Increased Base Energy regen for combat

Sub needs something.

But mostly the warrior was bad. He never used berserker rage to break a gouge once to finish the rogue off

[Sesshou]

So you're blaming people for misreading you? If someone misunderstands something then it's your fault by not giving all the information available, such as in this case. If you gave all the info available people wouldn't have to assume and misread you. The very fact that people can assume something off what you said puts the blame in your fault, not theirs, that is if you're trying to purposely explain something and not be misleading.

No, I never blamed anyone for misinterpreting me. I only blamed the one guy because he doesn't know the meaning of the word "accurate." All the info is there for anyone relatively knowledgeable about the primary topic of this forum section. I wasn't trying to be misleading, I never said I was. But if assumptions are made it doesn't really matter, if you make an incorrect assumption, then that is your fault for assuming. You know that proverb about assumptions right?

The problem here is that anyone with even a shred of intelligence and a shred of knowledge about current rogue mechanics realize that recup gives you energy on the ticks. Why should people be expected to include incredibly basic bits of general rogue knowledge in every post.

[AedanWolfe]

No, I never blamed anyone for misinterpreting me. I only blamed the one guy because he doesn't know the meaning of the word "accurate." All the info is there for anyone relatively knowledgeable about the primary topic of this forum section. I wasn't trying to be misleading, I never said I was. But if assumptions are made it doesn't really matter, if you make an incorrect assumption, then that is your fault for assuming. You know that proverb about assumptions right?

The problem here is that anyone with even a shred of intelligence and a shred of knowledge about current rogue mechanics realize that recup gives you energy on the ticks. Why should people be expected to include incredibly basic bits of general rogue knowledge in every post.

maybe you do not know the meaning of hte word assumption? you leave it to people to assume the energy ticks. Which puts you in hte wrong, not the other people.

regardless, all i asked was for you to keep it clarified and you get all hissy and proceed to argue pointlessly about essentially nothing.

my car goes 200 miles

no...my car goes 200 miles an hour

big difference.

and these forums i thought were to also to help people, so i figured a little clarification would be smart, and kind. apparently its just too much damn work.

[Sesshou]

maybe you do not know the meaning of hte word assumption? you leave it to people to assume the energy ticks. Which puts you in hte wrong, not the other people.

regardless, all i asked was for you to keep it clarified and you get all hissy and proceed to argue pointlessly about essentially nothing.

my car goes 200 miles

no...my car goes 200 miles an hour

big difference.

and these forums i thought were to also to help people, so i figured a little clarification would be smart, and kind. apparently its just too much damn work.

Maybe you never heard that you shouldn't make assumptions because it "makes an ass out of you and me." Don't assume things.

Also your example is not the same. One is a distance, the other is a rate. Mine was a sum, and the way you think I should have worded it would also be a sum. You merely wished I stated a length of time.

Big Difference.

Your example you left off the "an hour" changing it from a rate to a distance, thus it is in fact a big difference. Yeah I explained that twice, maybe it will help you understand it this time?

[AedanWolfe]

Maybe you never heard that you shouldn't make assumptions because it "makes an ass out of you and me." Don't assume things.

Also your example is not the same. One is a distance, the other is a rate. Mine was a sum, and the way you think I should have worded it would also be a sum. You merely wished I stated a length of time.

Big Difference.

Your example you left off the "an hour" changing it from a rate to a distance, thus it is in fact a big difference. Yeah I explained that twice, maybe it will help you understand it this time?

no, because you just overanalyzed the comparison to find a difference because you like to bicker. really this entire argument wouldve been done a long time ago. ive only kept it up this long to see if you were the type of person who needed to have the last word.

so, on topic.

I saw someone post a while back saying even mut and combat's recup healing was too high. was this your opinion or were they really surviving to long in say...pvp scenario, since i assume this is where the majority of the concern is.

[Sesshou]

no, because you just overanalyzed the comparison to find a difference because you like to bicker. really this entire argument wouldve been done a long time ago. ive only kept it up this long to see if you were the type of person who needed to have the last word.

so, on topic.

I saw someone post a while back saying even mut and combat's recup healing was too high. was this your opinion or were they really surviving to long in say...pvp scenario, since i assume this is where the majority of the concern is.

So you were testing to see if you left me with something to respond to if I would in fact respond? Well, it is a forum, so yeah I responded. Over analyzed? Not at all. There was a clear difference. My 145 energy is always 145 energy. Big Difference. (To use your wording) You can't even come up with a solid counter example.

"Too high" is pretty relative. Combat and mut can't pull off what this guy did though.

[AedanWolfe]

So you were testing to see if you left me with something to respond to if I would in fact respond? Well, it is a forum, so yeah I responded. Over analyzed? Not at all. There was a clear difference. My 145 energy is always 145 energy. Big Difference. (To use your wording) You can't even come up with a solid counter example.

"Too high" is pretty relative. Combat and mut can't pull off what this guy did though.

ty for proving my point /sigh

[Improvedlol]

Why nerf combat and mut PVP even more?

You are damn right. only sub is competitive right now. Without shs it's really impossible to kill someone unless their mouse break or something. You will get kited to dead without shs and prep. 40 yards ranged casters is increasing the difficulty by a lot too. Sub is really the only way to pvp.

I agree with the fact they should just remove the mastery part for recuperate.

[AedanWolfe]

You are damn right. only sub is competitive right now. Without shs it's really impossible to kill someone unless their mouse break or something. You will get kited to dead without shs and prep. 40 yards ranged casters is increasing the difficulty by a lot too. Sub is really the only way to pvp.

I agree with the fact they should just remove the mastery part for recuperate.

some days, i like to dream of shadowstep being baseline...then they can give subtlety some real love for PVE, and we wouldnt be almost required sub for pvp.

[starfires]

No, I never blamed anyone for misinterpreting me. I only blamed the one guy because he doesn't know the meaning of the word "accurate." All the info is there for anyone relatively knowledgeable about the primary topic of this forum section. I wasn't trying to be misleading, I never said I was. But if assumptions are made it doesn't really matter, if you make an incorrect assumption, then that is your fault for assuming. You know that proverb about assumptions right?

The problem here is that anyone with even a shred of intelligence and a shred of knowledge about current rogue mechanics realize that recup gives you energy on the ticks. Why should people be expected to include incredibly basic bits of general rogue knowledge in every post.

Why are u guys still arguing ? Who cares... Every wow topic i read regardless of the site is turns into 2 dudes arguing over some completely meaningless thing and it just goes on and on. Let it go , get back on topic. Maybe his can spark some positive influence to make this shit stop

[shadowboy]

No, it is accurate because thats what it does. 30 seconds, ticks every 3 for 10 ticks of 12 energy each. This is 120 energy. You get a guaranteed 25 from RS since it was a 5pt for a total of 145 energy gained. Now I did leave out the fact that you only net 115 energy, but this doesn't negate the fact that by using recup at 5cp you will gain a total of 145 extra energy.

Yeah, and you would have gotten the 25 energy from any other 5 point finisher that contributes damage directly, so it's not really a gain at all.

The net gain for using recuperate is only 90 energy.

[Nosferato]

well blizz as always nerf something they hit us twice as hard, the mastery was fine but not the base recuperate by 1/3rd thats pretty huge to any class

[tinybike]

well blizz as always nerf something they hit us twice as hard, the mastery was fine but not the base recuperate by 1/3rd thats pretty huge to any class

In my opinion, the nerf to baseline Recup was unnecessary. The real problem was always sub's mastery; they should have removed it and left it at that.

---------- Post added 2010-11-16 at 01:40 PM ----------

some days, i like to dream of shadowstep being baseline...then they can give subtlety some real love for PVE, and we wouldnt be almost required sub for pvp.

I think combat could be a reasonable PvP spec if it had some kind of extra gap closer. I'm not sure Shadowstep feels thematically right for combat. Honestly, I've often thought that Intercept (maybe without the stun?) would be appropriate for combat rogues, re-titled something appropriately fencer-ish. Redoublement, maybe?

[Sesshou]

Yeah, and you would have gotten the 25 energy from any other 5 point finisher that contributes damage directly, so it's not really a gain at all.

The net gain for using recuperate is only 90 energy.

No its not. You can't discount the 25 energy because you could have used another finisher, thats like saying a 5cp recup doesn't have a net loss of 5 combo points because you could have used those combo points for something else. Or thats the same as saying hitting sinister strike doesn't have a net loss of 39 energy because you could have used another ability instead.

The net is the sum of the positive and negative values (now you could possibly reverse the positive/negative in some cased depending on perspective...), values of things that didn't occur can't be considered. By using a 5cp recup you are NOT using another finisher because you DID use recup. You can only account for what occurred so its 12x10+25-30=115.

Another way to look at it, if you can't count the 25 energy because you didn't use recup, then you can't consider that a 5cp recup cost combo points since you used them for something else. Therefore by your logic I can net 90 energy and a hot by using 0 combo points. How does that work? If you don't count 25 energy as having occured, then the 5cp can't have been used either since the latter guarantees the former.

[Noah37]

Yea the Mage complaining about Rogue stuns should just go frost, seeing as Frost mages are one of the most annoying classes in the game. Anyways, I hope recuperate still works well for soling, that is really all I use it for.

[DiscostewSM]

I'd have to agree with Sesshou in his latest post, in that Recup has a net gain of 115 energy, when taking into account speccing to have 3/3 Energetic Recovery + 3/3 Relentless Strikes with 5 combo points. At the moment you use a 5pt Recup, you use 30 energy, but you gain 25 energy back through RS, so now you are at a net gain of -5 energy. Then, over 30 seconds, you gain a total of 120 energy from ER. -5 + 120 = 115.

I don't care to involve myself about how the explanation was done in posts earlier than that.

[Krid]

Rogues are supposed to self sufficient. That video shows self sufficiency.

---------- Post added 2010-11-16 at 09:48 PM ----------

You are damn right. only sub is competitive right now. Without shs it's really impossible to kill someone unless their mouse break or something. You will get kited to dead without shs and prep. 40 yards ranged casters is increasing the difficulty by a lot too. Sub is really the only way to pvp.

If you can't pvp with Assassination, you're just bad.

[AedanWolfe]

Rogues are supposed to self sufficient. That video shows self sufficiency.

---------- Post added 2010-11-16 at 09:48 PM ----------



If you can't pvp with Assassination, you're just bad.

i disagree, mainly in regards with what cata pvp will be like. less countering your counter with my counter type deals (arms race as GC said). meaning not having that ShS will be a big disadvantage, with longer fights more mobility will be important.