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  1. #1

    Feral vs. Rogue in PVP - a 20 points side by side comparison

    This thread is aimed mostly at the players who still hesitate and can't choose between a rogue and a feral druid. For years there wasn't a really good reason to choose a feral over a rogue, but with the latest patch finally the balance has been achieved.

    I'll try to compare rogues and ferals by several key factors.

    1. Stealth - 50/50
    Since 4.0.1 both rogues and ferals have the improved stealth (opposed to balance and resto druids). Moreover, talents and racials that improved stealth or stealth detection are gone, meaning that rogue and feral have now the same chance of catching each other first.

    Update: There are some rumors that ferals have better stealth, though it's not official.

    2. Healing debuff - 50/50
    The "mortal strike" debuff is now only 10%. Rogue provides it by reducing healing by 10%, feral provides it by increasing mana cost of spells by 10% (which will matter soon). The interesting thing here is that the feral ability stacks with other mortal strike effects - meaning you can have healing reduced by 10% and mana cost increased by 10% at the same time, giving an overall 20% healing effectiveness reduction over a long period of time.

    3. Interrupt - 50/50
    Ferals now have an interrupt, just like rogue - for 5sec, 10 sec CD. The feral one is even somewhat better since it can be used from 13yards, as opposed to 5. However, the feral one can't have an "improved version", i.e. silence.

    4. Damage 50/50
    Overall the damage of both classes is equal in a PVP setting. Feral has an advantage over heavily armored enemies and rogue over lightly armored ones.

    5. Control from stealth - rogue
    Rogues still dominate in this area. They have Sap and Garrote silence, which ferals don't have.

    6. Control from out of stealth - feral
    Rogues have blind (long CD) and gouge (short CD), but both break on damage. Ferals have cyclone, which always works, and becomes instant and free of mana every time you apply a 5CP finishing move. Ferals also have entangling roots, which can be made instant cast either with the glyph, or with a 5CP finisher. Ferals have nature's grasp, which applies roots up to 3 times upon being hit.

    7. Stunlocks - 50/50
    Feral's stuns don't share diminishing returns, rogue's - do. Feral's stunlock lasts 9sec, rogue's - 7sec. But during a stunlock the rogue does much more damage than a feral, so normally a feral never stunlocks, but rather uses rip.

    8. Silences - rogue
    Rogues have garrote and improved kick, ferals don't have any silences.

    9. Self healing - feral
    This one is even or in a slight advantage for the feral. Rogues have a hot and ferals - an instant heal after each finishing move. The advantage goes to feral, because rogues have to sacrifice their finishing move for the heal, and ferals - don't. However, ferals must go caster form for the heal anyway and need to spend a GCD to shift to feral again.

    10. Restealth - rogue
    Rogues have vanish and cloak of shadows, ferals have none. Still rogue domination in this area, as it should be.

    11. Offensive CDs - 50/50
    Ferals have Tiger's fury - 15% damage increase for 6sec (30sec CD) and Berserk (adrenaline rush on 3min CD). Rogues have several depending on the spec, but in my opinion they even out in the end.

    12. Defensive CDs - 50/50
    Ferals have Survival Instincts (50% damage reduction on 3min CD) and shifting to bear form, which in turn has Frenzied regeneration (last stand effect, and heal to 30% effect). However, shifting to bear greatly diminishes the effectiveness of your bleeds, because the bleed mastery works only in cat form.
    Rogues have Cloak of shadows, Evasion, Combat readiness (soon to come) and Smoke bomb (soon to come). Subtlety rogues have Cheat death as well.

    13. Mobility - feral
    Rogues have their sprint on a 1min CD, ferals - 2.4min CD. However ferals have Travel form and 4Piece PVP Set bonus for even greater speed outdoors.

    14. Survival against stuns/fears/polymorphs - feral
    Edit: added some updates here
    Rogues have nothing to counter stuns, ferals have Barkskin, which reduces damage by 20% and chance to be crit by 25% (with the glyph) and can be used while stunned. Ferals break fears with Berserk, rogues can't break fears, but can prevent them with Cloak of shadows. Ferals can't be polymorphed while in a cat/bear form, but if you were polymorphed while human, you can no longer shift to break it.

    15. Survival against roots/slows - feral
    Rogues have vanish and improved sprint, ferals - shapeshifting. The ferals however can do it no matter how many times so they have the advantage here.

    16. Combo points generation - rogue
    Rogues have several abilities to generate combo points and their openers award more combo points. Ferals only have 2CPs at once on a crit.

    17. Energy regeneration - rogue
    Rogues have several talents that increase energy regeneration rate (different per spec) or award energy on finishing moves, etc... Ferals have a burst energy regen tool on a 30sec CD - tiger's fury. In the long run however rogues regenerate more energy.
    Both rogues and ferals receive a refund of 80% of the energy of a finishing move if it misses/is blocked/dodged/parried.

    18. Slowing the enemy - rogue
    Rogues have the advantage with Crippling poison (70%) against Infected wounds (50%), the second however is physical to make up to an extent. Both are reapplied by the normal attack cycle and don't require wasting energy to do so.

    19. Catching the enemy - feral
    Ferals have feral charge (30sec CD), subtlety rogues - Shadowstep (20sec CD). If ferals play in bear form, its CD is 15sec only. In the end it evens up. However non-subtlety rogues have no analogue to that which is a big problem in pvp.


    20. Switching targets - rogue
    Rogues will soon have Redirect, making switching easier.

    21. Disarms - rogue
    Forgot an important one
    Rogues can disarm.

    Update: Ferals are affected by disarms, but slightly, since only some of their attacks are based off weapon damage. The most important ones (bleeds) remain the same. No feral attack becomes unusable after being disarmed.

    *Additional utility - as a hybrid class, druids provide additional utility over rogues. Rogues have also some unique niches, but overall feral ones are more useful.
    Ferals have tranquility and combat res.
    Rogues have Detect traps and Disarm trap.

    It's hard to tell yet which will be more useful in cata - my guess is rogue for arenas, feral for rated BGs, but one thing is for sure - feral druids are more viable and closer to rogues than ever before. Each have their own advantages and weaknesses, but in the end one thing is for sure - if you always wanted to play a feral druid, but never did due to any reason, now is the good time to try it

    Edit: typos
    Last edited by Freefalling; 2010-12-02 at 09:55 AM.

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by Freefalling View Post
    10. Restealth - rogue
    Rogues have vanish and cloak of shadows, ferals have none. Still rogue domination in this area, as it should be.
    NE druids have ghetto vanish or has it changed? I'm referring to Shadowmeld + Stealth

  3. #3
    apples meet oranges.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Bjursta View Post
    NE druids have ghetto vanish or has it changed? I'm referring to Shadowmeld + Stealth
    Shadowmeld does not put you out of combat if party members around you are in combat, so it can work as a "vanish" only in 1v1 world pvp

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by axxey View Post
    apples meet oranges.
    This is at most a case of grapes vs. oranges.
    Ferals and rogues are very similar. Have always been.
    We are roughly as different as destro locks and fire mages, no more - no less.

    I think the OP nails the main differences, although he forgets to mention that ferals have several survivabilities related to bear form as well. As a result of this and what the OP mentioned, ferals play slightly more defensive. We also rely on DoT's.

    It's easy to see why ferals and rogues are similar, as they should be. (After all, the point of Cat FOrm is to take on the role of a rogue)
    However, if you delve slightly deeper, it's also easy to see why they're very different.

    I am as excited myself to see how all this pans out, but I like the sound of it.

    Sincerely
    - A 2.5k feral with a 2.6k rogue friend backing him up.

  6. #6
    Current content every one of my geared characters laughs at rogues 1v1 now, they're only dangerous with others, damage throughput is terrible.

    Rogues have control and nothing else. You compare a mix of rogue specs instead of a solid breakdown.
    The new talent trees were a big nerf to rogues and losing strength of old mutilate prep build. New sub has the strength for full control but not enough energy regen to output enough damage press at the same time. Combat has token gimmicks.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Freefalling View Post
    Ferals break fears with Berserk, rogues have Cloak of shadows.
    From what I remember we (Rogues) still can't break fear with CoS

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Zhinaz View Post
    From what I remember we (Rogues) still can't break fear with CoS
    Thank you, I didn't realize this. I'll correct the original post by adding they can only prevent it but not break it.

  9. #9
    Just FWIW Detect/Disarm Trap and Lockpicking would be extremly useful if game was stillized like D&D games, where dungeons are full of locked treasures and traps. Ofc it'd suck greatly to have 1 Tank 1 Heal and 1 Rogue spot to find for dungeons...

    Rogues will always hate to see feral buffed, and that's just. If there was no advantage of being rogue over being jaguar, only people who loathe playing animal would play rogue. This is not actually the case, you get your deal of fun when you're rogue.

    If you're a feral druid, you should use your other forms and abilities if the game is designed properly.
    If you're a feral druid crying about his/her cat not matching with rogue you're (with my sorry) a bitter moron, you're never ever playing just a cat, same as balance is not playing just a moonkin.

    My choice of class would be rogue to be honest, for it being fighter class and not a caster class helping with transformation. Said that, all druids are expected to cast something when situation requires so.
    Last edited by AFK-Champion; 2010-12-01 at 12:19 PM. Reason: spaces/tabs work weird

  10. #10
    The Lightbringer Elunedra's Avatar
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    i was onder the impression that feral gained more ennery gy the 80 enegery every 30 secs the rouge would do tbh

    however also since last patch i think rouges and feral kitty's grew apart. roges are still the stabbing class while ferals are more of a dot class now

    and are you sure you bleeds decrease in value if you shift to bear ? i mean it would be again game meschanics as normaly a dot would use its statistics the way it was aplied..

    anyway nice post
    TREE DURID IS 4 PEE

  11. #11
    Scarab Lord AetherMcLoud's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elunedra View Post
    onder
    ennery gy
    enegeryrouge
    rouges
    roges
    again game meschanics
    aplied..
    Firefox has a built-in spellchecker you know...
    I'm Commander Shepard and this is my favorite signature on the forum.

  12. #12
    A few of those posts I couldn't make out what they were talking about, Aether kind of nailed it. Proof read what you are typing before you submit the post. You might have intelligent responses but if you don't use proper grammar no one is going to take you serious.

    And before people start calling grammar nazi or this isn't school, just because you aren't in school anymore is no excuse to avoid using proper grammar. They taught it in school so you could speak properly outside of school.

    Nice post and some interesting feedback, but like some people have covered the Rogue is purely a solo class and all the abilities support it wheras a Feral druid is more utility which in turn makes it harder to play because you aren't just focused on yourself/form, you have to shift into caster/travel form to be able to use your spec&class to the full potential where a rogue is pretty straight forward and the only difference is the spec.

    EDIT: Also add in that you have to Glyph Barkskin to have the 25% crit reduction. Shifting into bear changes your mastery into SD and cuts your bleeds and on top of it Frenzied regen eats all your rage so you will spend most of your time trying to reduce the amount of damage you are taking while in it instead of keeping the damage up.
    Last edited by Turaz; 2010-12-01 at 04:07 PM.

  13. #13
    Forgot about shadowstep under mobility?
    [23:35:54] [B] [80:Fetølboks-Dea:5]: stop running into die

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  14. #14
    The Lightbringer Elunedra's Avatar
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    oke sorry i got to agree that post was a mess :/

    here is a 2nd attemp :P

    i was under the impression that feral gained more energy whit the 80 energy every 30 secs then rogue would do tbh

    however also since last patch i think rogues and feral kitty's grew apart. rogues are still the stabbing class while ferals are more of a dot class now

    and are you sure that the bleeds decrease in value if you shift to bear ? i mean it would be again game mechanics as normaly a dot would use its statistics the way it was appleid..

    anyway nice post
    TREE DURID IS 4 PEE

  15. #15
    Depending on the spec Rogues will generate more energy. Combat has Vitality which increases regen by 25% and Combat Potency which has a 20% chance off-hand attack to generate 15 energy. It also has Adrenaline rush which is on a 3 minute CD but if you are pvping you will use it if you get into a fight.

    Assassination has Assassins Resolve which increases energy by 20 and Venomous Wounds which has a 30% chance to regain 10 energy for every garrote/rupture tick and if the target dies you get the remaining duration of a rupture converted into energy.

    Sublety has Relentless strikes which has a 20% chance when you use a finisher to restore 25 energy, and if you spec into Energetic Recovery you get 12 energy everytime you use Recuperate.
    Last edited by Turaz; 2010-12-01 at 04:35 PM.

  16. #16
    Dreadlord Tangster's Avatar
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    However, shifting to bear greatly diminishes the effectiveness of your bleeds, because the bleed mastery works only in cat form.
    I'm pretty sure this isn't true to an extent. Shifting to bear will diminish bleeds you apply while in bear form (eg lacerate and thrash). Cat bleeds that are already up will continue to tick with the stats you had when they were applied. (ie Rip will tick the same no matter what form you are in).

    However shifting to bear does greatly decrease you offensive output because as Turaz already mentioned, you probably have frenzied regen up so you wont have the rage to do much.
    #1 Resto Tree Slap DPS

  17. #17
    Would also like to add to my previous post, I kind of forgot about Glyphs for Rogues.

    Backstab generates 5 energy if you crit if glyphed
    Adrenaline Rush increases the duration by 5 seconds.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Tangster View Post
    I'm pretty sure this isn't true to an extent. Shifting to bear will diminish bleeds you apply while in bear form (eg lacerate and thrash). Cat bleeds that are already up will continue to tick with the stats you had when they were applied. (ie Rip will tick the same no matter what form you are in).
    Naw, this isn't true (tested quite recently). Shifting out of cat form will make your existing bleeds weaker.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Tangster View Post
    I'm pretty sure this isn't true to an extent. Shifting to bear will diminish bleeds you apply while in bear form (eg lacerate and thrash). Cat bleeds that are already up will continue to tick with the stats you had when they were applied. (ie Rip will tick the same no matter what form you are in).
    Nope, I just tried it on a target dummy and I can confirm that shifting out of cat reduces the amount of damage rake does. I haven't tried with rip but I don't see why it would behave differently.
    It's very counter intuitive that it works that way, but it does work that way. That's why now I prefer to avoid going into bear unless really necessary and use SI/Barkskin/PS heals or kiting my enemy to survive in cat form.

  20. #20
    If you think about it;

    I can be in cat right now, and depending on the targets resilience, if they have none my rake and rip will crit for about 10k+ (I did this last night to a paladin that was on a griffon). I am in full heroic 277 gear with about 20% mastery. I open with a Pounce, followed by a TF then a mangle then rake (I will usually have 5 points by this point) then I rip and jump into bear where I would not die that would seem more than just a little overpowered so that is why your bleeds diminish.

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