So they're nerfing self healing yet again.

[Deleted]

if your about to die in a PVE enviroment then a tank is dead and your wiping or you have done something wrong. Look down, is there fire. otherwise you shouldnt be worrying about dying and should use proper strikes.

Also where in the origial post was it mentioned about almost dying. It doesnt it says Death strike is a loss of dps.

I'm responding to your sweeping statement that "bad dps use death strike". The original post is talking about self healing, which doesn't exclude dps-use-of.

Now you make even better statements, let me get these right. Apparently DPS only ever take damage when;

a) Tank is dead
b) Stood in fire
c) Doing something wrong

So, if I take damage during Blood Queen, one of the above must be true? There is _no situation_ where you might want to press a button to sacrifice a bit of DPS and save yourself from death?

"You shouldn't be worrying about dying"

Excellent. Well I guess that's the whole game sorted for us right there. If DPS never have to worry about dieing, I guess I can take AMS, IBF, Death Pact and DS all off my bar and just spam away watching the big numbers and dodging fire.

Please think through your ridiculous statements, if you actual believe any of that then you are the terrible dps you're trying to tell us all not to be.

[Nyanmaru]

So, if I take damage during Blood Queen, one of the above must be true? There is _no situation_ where you might want to press a button to sacrifice a bit of DPS and save yourself from death?

Face it, if you are close to dying as a DpS in current content then either you or the raid healer fucked up.
If you are close to dieing, on Bitch Queen, then the 4k DS heal won't save you from the 8k nuke that makes you kick the bucket.

[Deleted]

Frost was the main tanking build at start of wrath (tho any spec really could of been used...)

exactly, why change something that works and people are used to, giving a flimsy excuse of "blood has a nice self healing vibe" and then nerfing self healing to the ground? frost made more sense lorewise (turning your skin into unbreakable ice) gameplaywise, as it was already considered by most to be the best tanking tree, and the fact that most people were already used to it.

[McFrotton]

Hm ok then, my mistake, if this is considered just QQ then I guess the community here feels that our self healing should have been reduced or reduced even further. Guess I'm in the minority. Carry on!

dmg wotn go as high and wotn follow the huge health pool jump if healing stayed were it was no one would be able to kill each other you would see endless arena match lol.

[Deleted]

Roleplay class/spec descriptions make pretty crappy class design. I suppose by unbreakable you mean you should never take damage or die? If so, thats ridiculous, if not.. what the hell does the description matter beyond your own personal feeling? Its a roleplay game. Why don't you just pretend you're unbreakable ice when you press icebound fortitude.

*cough* unbreakable armor *cough*

and now we have things like pillar of frost where you are basically freezing yourself to make yourself heavier

I don't mean unbreakable, as in indestructable, you can hit something and it can dent/crack/chip without breaking it, and the person inside the unbreakable armor wouldn't be too happy either from the blunt force trauma either

IBF is something like, "you freeze the blood in your veins" in which case, I'll take it as, you literally turn your blood into frozen blood

[Deleted]

Remember they buffed HP across the board about a week back. Since self-healing abilities are %-based they are just being normalized on most parts and heal for roughly the same amount they did before.

[Deleted]

Face it, if you are close to dying as a DpS in current content then either you or the raid healer fucked up.
If you are close to dieing, on Bitch Queen, then the 4k DS heal won't save you from the 8k nuke that makes you kick the bucket.

if you have 4001 hp left and you heal for 4000, and the nuke hits for 8000, you'll have 1 hp left, which could be enough to let the healer get a cast off, assuming they had started casting before, in that case, it could mean the difference between winning, and a wipe. it's taken to the extreme, I know, and if someone saves you from THAT, youre pretty much guaranteed to win because you have SOME kind of deity with you :P

[Deleted]

Face it, if you are close to dying as a DpS in current content then either you or the raid healer fucked up.
If you are close to dieing, on Bitch Queen, then the 4k DS heal won't save you from the 8k nuke that makes you kick the bucket.

Maybe the healer is just lagging, or DCed. Maybe he did screw up, but maybe he'll correct it with that little extra leeway. Hey, you could sac your pet and give him a whole bunch of extra time. That is an even more massive DPS loss, for a much bigger heal. Still not worth it?

The argument of this other guy seems to be, you should never have to heal yourself as a DPS, that is the healers job.

I got another even better example, with a video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vyfqQSXvQZA

Phase 3, Penetrating Cold. So, I should (for optimal dps);

a) never use IBF, dps loss because of its RP cost
b) be using AMS on cooldown, for more rp and more dps (so its on cooldown when i need it for PC)
c) not sac my pet if im about to die
d) not DS if im about to die

In this example, the raid would have lost not only its best dps, but 13% magic debuff on the adds/boss (lock could replace, for a global per target).

Clearly from the video I do get PC quite a few times in p3, and each time I use a cooldown to save myself because it's hard content, and people are human.. they make mistakes. The warrior dies, he has little or no cooldowns to use.. is that a coincidence? It was one of the hardest things about this encounter, training DPS to save themselves rather than die.

The argument that DPS shouldn't do so is ridiculous, because Blizzard design fights to challenge you in such ways, be it moving out of fire or giving DPS clear and obvious chances to save themselves, by using cooldowns and often sacrificing short term dps to ensure long term survival. To me its the same as saying you shouldn't run out of Shock Blast because you have to stop hitting the boss. Same thing. Runes getting wasted (not being used). Whats the difference exactly? Nothing except its much more painfully obvious.

The argument that DPS shouldn't have to heal themselves is relative. Sure, some gosu healer who never makes mistakes, DCs, Lags or fails.. great. Safely remove these things from your bar and praise him for being the wow incarnation of Jesus! But if you have a healer like everyone else, who can lag, DC and make the occasional mistake then I don't really see how doing everything to save yourself can ever make you a "bad dps" as claimed.

[Ershiin]

"Bad dps" doesnt sacrifice an obliterate or two in order to keep the healer from OOMing on your sorry ass.
Sure this doesnt matter on "current content", but these changes arent exactly meant for "current content".
Honestly, its people like this thats the reason some healers just outright refuses to heal the DPS.. Not because they cant handle it, but because they feel the need to FORCE you to use these survival abilities so that you wont be a pain in the neck in raids.

[Nyanmaru]

Let me make a stupid argument too:
- A good dps would have a good raid.
- A good raid has good healers.
- A good healer doesn't let a good dps drop.
Ergo: a good dps doesn't have to heal himself.

I suppose you don't use speed potions either because you need to save your potion CD so you can heal yourself?

Can you pull more than one gimmicky encounter per raid tier where DSing might be a necessity but could also be taken care of by a half competent healer? What's the use of the great dps of 3 DKs gimping half their damage when you could easily have switched one for a disc priest or tree and let the other 2 go all out? 2x 100% dps > 3x 50% dps...

[Deathquoi]

I don't know if it's because they see our tanks having an advantage over other tanks (though paladins can self heal, and both warrior/druid have a regeneration thing), or if it's a pvp thing, but oh look, they nerfed our healing again.

Self heal already heals for as little as a health pot, while severely hampering dps (unless you're tanking I suppose), and it will make my soloing more difficult I imagine.

My main spec will always be some form of dps, but I do like to have a second spec that I can use to solo old raid content (ZG, BC heroics, etc.) and it was already made more difficult by the last death strike change, now it will, again, be more difficult still.

Is this still hate over that one death knight who solo'd sarth, or are they moving towards removing self-healing completely? Warriors get a HUGE buff in self healing, while DK self healing gets nerfed TO THE GROUND BABY!

Paladin self healing comes at the expense of a lot of threat.

[Zao]

No need for two threads on the same topic.
http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...owered-on-Beta