No QQing about the fact that the horde took over so much just on how they did it.

[WReck]

Seriously when did the horde mass an incredibly powerful navel fleet. I mean I would understand if they had ports in the major cities but they're major cities aren't even near the ocean. The horde go from having blimps to taking the sea by storm I play alliance so maybe I'm missing the hordes pre cata build a navel fleet to destroy the alliance quest line, but seriously was there any logic in the horde suddenly being masters of the sea? Honestly have had the horde attack by air sense they already have blimps and the trolls are now fulling backing the horde or at least make them use steam punk style ships provided by the trolls. You know any thing at all the show some sort of thought to this twist in the story. Ok that's enough QQ form me any one else have any thoughts on this

[Abstieg]

Goblins. That and Orgrimmar gets a port and the Undercity is understood to have a harbor somewhere nearby.

[Gurkalicious]

umm. Didn't they just get goblins in their side? I mean goblins who can make boats like it's their job?

[Reg]

The forsaken have built a pretty big fleet themselves, and it was seen even in Wrath.

[Aqir]

So, we are gonna get these green small dudes that pretty much build anything superquick, i think they might have a thing or two to do with this.

[Standsinfire]

Seriously when did the horde mass an incredibly powerful navel fleet. I mean I would understand if they had ports in the major cities but they're major cities aren't even near the ocean. The horde go from having blimps to taking the sea by storm I play alliance so maybe I'm missing the hordes pre cata build a navel fleet to destroy the alliance quest line, but seriously was there any logic in the horde suddenly being masters of the sea? Honestly have had the horde attack by air sense they already have blimps and the trolls are now fulling backing the horde or at least make them use steam punk style ships provided by the trolls. You know any thing at all the show some sort of thought to this twist in the story. Ok that's enough QQ form me any one else have any thoughts on this

In b4 Blizz favors Horde posters

Something to note is that most tech/construction advancements come directly from goblins, paid of course. Zepplins, Orgrimmar, seige/naval fleets, etc. But with the introduction of a entire faction of goblins with Horde loyalty, expect to see endless change and tech advancement bringing the war machine into a modern age and out of the 6 year rock hut and slingshots era.

[Its Electric]

How much time has passed from WCIII till current WoW history? Anybody know?

[Standsinfire]

How much time has passed from WCIII till current WoW history? Anybody know?

5 years, if I'm not mistaken

[Its Electric]

5 years, if I'm not mistaken

So in 5 years, Orcs went from being nearly annihilated to being a superpower, Blood Elves went from being nearly wiped out by the Scourge to a huge nation, and Humans lost nearly half it's population to the Scourge and now is supposedly bigger than before.

What needs to be examined, IF ANYTHING, is not how fast ships are being built, but how much sexings are going on to bring about this population boom.

[LazerCats]

So in 5 years, Orcs went from being nearly annihilated to being a superpower, Blood Elves went from being nearly wiped out by the Scourge to a huge nation, and Humans lost nearly half it's population to the Scourge and now is supposedly bigger than before.

What needs to be examined, IF ANYTHING, is not how fast ships are being built, but how much sexings are going on to bring about this population boom.

That's it, close the thread, close the forums, we have a winning post.

That is something I've never thought of before, but I think it's just another example of gameplay shrouding the lore. Lorewise, the Horde had other ways to pass between the continents other than the blimps. In the same way, the population in game is much lower than the lore population.

[shadowkras]

I would say its a little over 5 years of ingame time. Not to mention you are counting from the fall of archimonde and not the end of the frozen throne (where org is actually pretty large), which is about 3-5 months after archimonde was killed.
That being said, there is a ton of obvious technologic advanced on the horde, as seen in wrath of the lich king, the forsaken have a huge fleet, the horde in general built many siege machines and war vehicles (horde gunship is just as much technological as the alliance one). And the horde had a pretty impressive fleet when they fled to kalimdor, most just crashed by the coast and they never bothered to build a port city, but i believe we will see more horde ports in cata (which does a time-jump from vanilla -> today).
The elves always had a ton of ships, you see blood elf ships everywhere, silvermoon has a huge port (but unnacessible ingame), the isle of quel danas has another huge port. Lordaeron supposedly had a port aswell (connecting to the lake), as seen in warcraft3 games, they just kept it out of the game in wow.
If you think the horde are slow builders, go ask the elves why they are so pissed about Ashenvale.
The alliance had the gnomes on their side for years, providing them with high-tech stuff, but now the horde have the goblins, so no more mercenary work to get advanced technology.

[Deleted]

So in 5 years, Orcs went from being nearly annihilated to being a superpower, Blood Elves went from being nearly wiped out by the Scourge to a huge nation, and Humans lost nearly half it's population to the Scourge and now is supposedly bigger than before.

What needs to be examined, IF ANYTHING, is not how fast ships are being built, but how much sexings are going on to bring about this population boom.

The current Horde is preposterous in the light of demographics alone. Consider the following:

-The Durotar Orcs are a leftover remnant of a defeated and devastated army that spent close to fifteen years in lethargy, and destitution.
-The Darkspear Trolls are a small tribe living on a small archipelago.
-The Tauren have literally just come from the plains, having existed as a coherent society for less than a decade. Nomadic societies do not, by definition, carry large populations.
-The Blood Elves are no more than 10% of a population and society that was systematically massacred. Cutting a population to 10% would be like cutting America's population from 300 million to 30 million. Think about how well that would go over.
-The Forsaken, likewise, are a fraction of a devastated Lordaeron people group.

It has been only eight years (going by the official timeline on the sight) since the foundation of Durotar and the current Horde, not even close to enough time for any children born at the time to come to adulthood to greatly affect the labor force of the Horde. There is nothing to indicate in the current lore that the Horde had any manufacturing capability that could build all these new warships, let alone the laborers to build them all. In fact, it was clearly implied that (for the Western Horde at least) in Wrath and elsewhere that the Horde had terrible naval capacity, and I find it interesting that few have stopped to consider the implications of a major power having to rent its intercontinental transport from Goblins.

News flash: the Horde and Alliance are gameplay elements. The Horde as presented in WoW literally makes no sense if you stop and think about it for ten seconds. You can either just ignore that and appreciate the lore for what it is (a mechanism for justifying current gameplay needs) or go mad trying to reconcile the innumerable contradictions and inanities it's laden with.

[Verzerrung]

Not quite. It was 5 years from WC3 to the start of vanilla then assuming since in-game time flows at the same speed as real time then it has also been six yours since the start of vanilla. Thus it has been 11 years since the end of WC3.

[mysticx]

Not quite. It was 5 years from WC3 to the start of vanilla then assuming since in-game time flows at the same speed as real time then it has also been six yours since the start of vanilla. Thus it has been 11 years since the end of WC3.

Again though, where do all the extra people come from? 11 years isn't enough to go from baby to raiding powerhouse, especially for the elven races, who live longer and would logically take longer to reach maturity (As in "Combat-ready, not opening the "Only kids roll elves" can-o-worms here)

[Niter]

I guess we should see that lore will be 'repaired' in Warcraft 4 or a bunch of books.

Honestly, I cannot even think of ONE change since Vanilla that prioritised story and lore before what Blizzard developers perceive as 'cool'.

Orcs were crippled, now they are everywhere and more powerful than ever.

Stormwind had an absolutely massive advantage over every single other race in population, but have not really expanded.

Blood Elves were massacred, they were the 2nd highest population, but not many lived and out of those, a small part stayed High Elves, so the amount of BE settlements and NPCs in the game is kinda crazily out of proportion.

ONE Goblin cartel joined the Horde a couple months ago and they have been able to do so much in so freaking little time. It is really stupid.

We see Worgen in Blasted Lands. Oh well, it is not like they had to cross the entire continent to settle in a completely desolate place full of demons!

Worgen can be Death Knights. It just does not make sense.

Draenei? They received next to no attention since Outland... They really have no place of now, they have no history hooks in Azeroth. If others could do so much in so little time, why can't them?

Sylvanas is the Lich Queen, but a SHAMANISTIC group does not care enough to do anything about it. Argent Crusade? No, they are not doing a single thing about it. Truly horrible indeed. Knights Of The Ebon Blade? Joining them? Going against them just like they went for the Lich King. No, they are dead. Really.

Night Elves? Well, I am actually impressed by their feats in Cataclysm. Fending off elementals in Hyjal, holding most of their settlements in Ashenvale, dealing with other threats in Darkshore (if you guys read the RPG books, Auberdine is pretty important city) and rebuilding the place, since it got thrashed. And, of course, they were even able to get an army out of no-where to fight in Feralas and in Stonetalon. Their funny ears make sense: they multiply like rabbits!

Gnomes failed to conquer back their own city. How horrible.

Darkspear Trolls are everywhere, but there were not many of them to begin with... Do not ask, do not tell how it happened.

Stromgarde? ROFLMAO. Both Alterac Valley and Arathi Basin make no sense anymore. If the Forsaken can wipe out everything there, League Of Arathor and The Stormspike can do what? If the battle was actually balanced, now they are in for some serious plague breathing.

I truly wish the RPG part of MMORPG got some love. So far it is all about whatever the devs think it is fun and a lot of references to pop culture. Other than that, Blizzard seems to take concepts from Diablo, Starcraft and Warcraft, taking from one and applying it to another. Books like Stormrage are very good, in my opinion. They should matter. The comics should matter.

But what actually happens is that they just adapt lore to suits their design goals afterwards. That is why I have not encountered a single new villain after Warcraft 3 and we are definitely stuck with killings Dragons, or Old God's pawns, and the Burning Legion will make a comeback, because there is nothing really new in lore, only late changes to lore to accommodate game changes.

It is upsetting, really.

[kronpas]

Theres no "Horde fleet", its mostly Forsaken naval fleet plus Goblin zep and Org siege engines. Forsaken naval power isnt something new, it s been described clearly from the start of WotLK. As for the rest, well .. dont expect logical logistic in a fantasy game :P

Btw, a whole cartel joining Horde would make a huge impact, considering all neutral goblins we met in WoW for the last 6 years were from a single Cartel.

[MestHoop]

Theres no "Horde fleet", its mostly Forsaken naval fleet plus Goblin zep and Org siege engines. Forsaken naval power isnt something new, it s been described clearly from the start of WotLK. As for the rest, well .. dont expect logical logistic in a fantasy game :P

Btw, a whole cartel joining Horde would make a huge impact, considering all neutral goblins we met in WoW for the last 6 years were from a single Cartel.

orc fleet isn't something new either.
I suggest playing warcraft 2.

[mordale]

Theres no "Horde fleet", its mostly Forsaken naval fleet plus Goblin zep and Org siege engines. Forsaken naval power isnt something new, it s been described clearly from the start of WotLK. As for the rest, well .. dont expect logical logistic in a fantasy game :P

Btw, a whole cartel joining Horde would make a huge impact, considering all neutral goblins we met in WoW for the last 6 years were from a single Cartel.

two cartels to be exact, the venture company while hostile is neutral.
humans, dwarves, dreanei(we don't see that much of them) and night elves are the only races that can make sense when taking their populations into account, and they made a very nice loop hole for both goblins and worgen in terms of their populations.

---------- Post added 2010-11-19 at 07:56 AM ----------

orc fleet isn't something new either.
I suggest playing warcraft 2.

and how much of that fleet made it through the 2nd war?
or wasn't sold after the war.

[Kealsin]

Eh, to bad the Troll's don't build blimps. That would be the Goblin's their bub.

As for the ocean... apparently you never tried to raid Orgrimmar before. If you go right of the Orgrimmar entrance you hit the ocean. Soooo, technically they are rather close to it.

[kronpas]

orc fleet isn't something new either.
I suggest playing warcraft 2.

Orcs were in their height of power in WC2, that fleet didnt survive their total defeat. Their naval power hasnt improved since then, and current situation inWoW is the continuation of WC3, not WC2.

I did play since WC2, so thank for the advice but I dont think I need it