Question regarding Expertise and Death Knights

[Astarothe]

Hey guys! As the title says I have a question regarding expertise. Recently a new death knight guildie of mine was asking me for tips on spec/armor modification/stat goals and I mentioned that he wants to increase his expertise up to cap.

To my suggestion he responded that he never focused on expertise because he always remains behind mobs during fights and therefor could not be parried anyway.

Honestly this has never crossed my mind and so I did not know how to properly respond. I told him that from my experience I have noticed that my overall dps did increase when I first focused on reaching exp cap.

So, is it true that you don't need as much expertise just because you are behind the mob? and is the answer different depending on if you are Dual Wielding or using a 2Hander?

Thanks for any information you may have on this!

[Tahkmaul]

I recently read a DK guide saying UH DKs didn't need to focus on expertise as much. I am in the same boat as the OP. Can someone give clarification as to why this is/might be/is right or wrong.

[Deleted]

If he remained behind the mob it is true that he could not be parried but without the exp softcap the mob could still dodge him. Anything over the soft cap is wasted on DPS. No idea about unholy but id THINK they would want at least the soft cap.

Edit: Exp cap is 23 currently at level 80 and will be 26 at level 85 regardless if you are SW or using a 2 Hander

[Xicor]

im pretty sure that unholy dks, since a lot of their dmg is diseases, dont care that much about expertise.

[Alexiaa]

Well frost builds require capped expertise because a majority of their damage comes from actual weapon strikes. Unholy on the other hand uses way more magic damage, so the expertise gets wasted because it does not effect any magical damage.

Standing behind a mob helps reduce parries but It does not remove it, and mobs can dodge from any angle so expertise helps that a great deal.

Rule of thumb - cap it if you are Frost leave it alone and reforge it to haste as Unholy

[Nabstar]

Expertise for a DK depends on your spec. If you are Unholy, there is no reason to go after Expertise at all. If you are DW frost expertise is a little more important, due to alot of your damage is white hits. If you are unholy I would gem strength and reforge everything to haste. If you are frost I would gem strength but reforge everything to mastery. This advise is pretty much right off EJ.

[Deleted]

Well, in my experience I've always got Expertise capped.

From my understanding Expertise Reduces the Parry/Dodge. Now has stated above when attacking from behind, the mob/boss cannot parry, but they can still dodge. Thats why we stack expertise to the soft cap (6.5% - 26) so that our attacks cannot be dodged. This alone is why you should aim for the soft cap.

Hope this clears a few things up.

[Astarothe]

Thanks for the feedback! I have always just aimed for at least having the cap but never really asked myself "why" so when guildmate questioned this I just didn't know how to respond. I think this helps to clear up some things.

@Nabstar: I agree with you 100%. That is exactly how I have set myself up. When it comes to caps and minimum stat requirements I pretty much always look to EJ Theorycrafters because I have found them to be accurate, but I had never asked "why".

Thanks again guys!

[CrenVerdis]

hmm plaguestrike uses a weaponstrike and i think scourgestrike, too.
In most cases soft cap should be easy to obtain and be a net dps plus. I'm honest I don't know much about unhoy DK (being a BloodTank myself) but lacking behind in exp doesn't look smart in my POV. Though hitcap should be absolute priority.

What I wanted to mention is that at least in 4.0.1 Level 80 softcap for dodge is 23 not 26 anymore (going to be 26 again at 85 iirc the EJ-Thread)

[Deathquoi]

hmm plaguestrike uses a weaponstrike and i think scourgestrike, too.
In most cases soft cap should be easy to obtain and be a net dps plus. I'm honest I don't know much about unhoy DK (being a BloodTank myself) but lacking behind in exp doesn't look smart in my POV. Though hitcap should be absolute priority.

What I wanted to mention is that at least in 4.0.1 Level 80 softcap for dodge is 23 not 26 anymore (going to be 26 again at 85 iirc the EJ-Thread)

Every point that you have in expertise on a piece of gear where you could have haste or crit is a DPS loss. This has been endlessly discussed and tested and the benefit of Expertise for Unholy is just too small to bother with. Yet every thread about expertise has this one person that comes out and says "herp derp imo i think expertise is important even though i have nothing but my feelings to back it up." It is not a useful stat for unholy.

[Foibles]

It does prevent the rage of having Scourge Strike be dodged 5 times in a row
/anger

[Gammer]

Every point that you have in expertise on a piece of gear where you could have haste or crit is a DPS loss. This has been endlessly discussed and tested and the benefit of Expertise for Unholy is just too small to bother with. Yet every thread about expertise has this one person that comes out and says "herp derp imo i think expertise is important even though i have nothing but my feelings to back it up." It is not a useful stat for unholy.

This absolutely.

[CrenVerdis]

Every point that you have in expertise on a piece of gear where you could have haste or crit is a DPS loss. This has been endlessly discussed and tested and the benefit of Expertise for Unholy is just too small to bother with. Yet every thread about expertise has this one person that comes out and says "herp derp imo i think expertise is important even though i have nothing but my feelings to back it up." It is not a useful stat for unholy.

"herp di derpididerderp I'M MAZTER OF UNHOLYZ! RESPECT MAH AUTHORITAAAAAHHH!!!" - "Okay Pal sure I will do!"

The first portion of it was explicit stated that it is:
MY point of view (no math included)
I'm NOT a unholy player (was unholy tank back in the day)

What I mentioned:
That there is loads of exp on the gear already (11 on the one t10 264 and maybe a weapon would soft cap you)

What was a real add to the discussion:
That there is this new 80 exp cap. Not the old one mentioned here.


So:
I admit my first post obviously was not well enough structured for everyone; I tried to do this now. (But to be honest I did not expect somebody would rage in this way direct with using old unfunny memes and insulting me.) So please since I talked about it now: Could you please not piss down my back again. This is rude. And a simple: Read EJ you prick would've done the trick.

And ontopic:
I corrected my first post to avoid confusion

[Deathquoi]

"herp di derpididerderp I'M MAZTER OF UNHOLYZ! RESPECT MAH AUTHORITAAAAAHHH!!!" Okay Pal sure I will do!"

The first portion of it was explicit stated that it is:
MY point of view (no math included)
I'm NOT a unholy player (was unholy tank back in the day)

What I mentioned:
That there is loads of exp on the gear already (11 on the one t10 264 and maybe a weapon would soft cap you)

What was a real comment:
That there is this new 80 exp cap. Not the mentioned old one mentioned here.


So:
I admit my first post obviously was not well enough structured for everyone; I tried to do this now. (But to be honest I did not expect somebody would rage in this way direct with using old unfunny memes and insulting me.) So please since I talked about it now: Could you please not piss down my back again. This is rude. And a simple: Read EJ you prick would've done the trick ;-)

And ontopic:
I corrected my first post to avoid confusion

Well, I certainly did not "rage" and I don't believe my post had anything to do with any memes. I just want people to stop making bad posts when they don't know what they're talking about.

[DeusX]

I am sitting at 11 expretise and another guy came in the guild with 0 expertise and about same gear, same dps. At this right moment (4.0.3) the expertise stat has a value of NOTHING to Unholy DK's, same as mastery.
But now is now and who knows how it will all scale above 80.

[CrenVerdis]

ohh well quotation marks and a simple herp derp thing was so offensive that it sounded like "rage" to me. (the "endlessly discussed" topics also proofs you're a vet of the forums and sick of all that repetative discussions for a reason i must admit)
I would say this was and your new post is also rage because you just fire your "torpedo" without revealing any further information. Yes it is a dps loss. That was mentioned in post number 2!! gratz sounds like raging to me.

Anyhow since I revealed my fault could we be just be friends... Or are we going to continue ragewars because i think your post was unnecessary harsh and rude?

----------------------------------------- <-(my final stroke: I will not reply to any agressive or passive aggressive moves anymore)

So ontopic again:
It is stated in the unholy DPS thread on EJ (link) that the following stat order is mathematically correct:

Hit to cap > Strength > Haste > Crit > Mastery > Expertise to cap > Agility


have a nice day and don't forget to drink enough water!

[Poodles]

It's not the parry you're worrying about, it's the dodge. Mobs can dodge attacks from behind them while players can't. Mobs and players can only parry from in front, though sometimes mobs do it from behind (probably a bug).

Expertise reduces the chance on both.

Though a large chunk of your damage as unholy is from the diseases, that's not all of it and you still need to use abilites like scourge strike and plague strike.

[Deathquoi]

ohh well quotation marks and a simple herp derp thing was so offensive that it sounded like "rage" to me. (the "endlessly discussed" topics also proofs you're a vet of the forums and sick of all that repetative discussions for a reason i must admit)
I would say this was and your new post is also rage because you just fire your "torpedo" without revealing any further information. Yes it is a dps loss. That was mentioned in post number 2!! gratz sounds like raging to me.

Anyhow since I revealed my fault could we be just be friends... Or are we going to continue ragewars because i think your post was unnecessary harsh and rude?

----------------------------------------- <-(my final stroke: I will not reply to any agressive or passive aggressive moves anymore)

So ontopic again:
It is stated in the unholy DPS thread on EJ (link) that the following stat order is mathematically correct:

Hit to cap > Strength > Haste > Crit > Mastery > Expertise to cap > Agility


have a nice day and don't forget to drink enough water!

I fire my torpedoes indiscriminately. I don't want to flame you, because you appear to understand. It's just that a part of me feels sad every time someone spreads misinformation, which is what I thought you were doing.

---------- Post added 2010-11-22 at 10:14 AM ----------

It's not the parry you're worrying about, it's the dodge. Mobs can dodge attacks from behind them while players can't. Mobs and players can only parry from in front, though sometimes mobs do it from behind (probably a bug).

Expertise reduces the chance on both.

Though a large chunk of your damage as unholy is from the diseases, that's not all of it and you still need to use abilites like scourge strike and plague strike.

Just because a stat does something doesn't mean the something that it does is worthwhile.

[Toejhomas]

I'm going to confirm what most people have already said, expertise is neccessary for frost, but a rather lackluster stat for unholy.

[Deleted]

"herp di derpididerderp I'M MAZTER OF UNHOLYZ! RESPECT MAH AUTHORITAAAAAHHH!!!" - "Okay Pal sure I will do!"

The first portion of it was explicit stated that it is:
MY point of view (no math included)
I'm NOT a unholy player (was unholy tank back in the day)

What I mentioned:
That there is loads of exp on the gear already (11 on the one t10 264 and maybe a weapon would soft cap you)

What was a real add to the discussion:
That there is this new 80 exp cap. Not the old one mentioned here.


So:
I admit my first post obviously was not well enough structured for everyone; I tried to do this now. (But to be honest I did not expect somebody would rage in this way direct with using old unfunny memes and insulting me.) So please since I talked about it now: Could you please not piss down my back again. This is rude. And a simple: Read EJ you prick would've done the trick.

And ontopic:
I corrected my first post to avoid confusion

No-one was raging. Don't act so defensively, forums are made for discussion.