Holy Sheild Please stop destroying our mitigation

[Ferel]

think the two of you are referring to Intervene, but yes, it has no HoS damage siphon and a much shorter cooldown (unless I missed a patchnote somewhere that increased cd, but I doubt that at the moment)

Edit: beaten by ages, fuck posting from iPod...

[Lucetia]

Thank you guys for giving some useful information (i used wrong number on 40%). as far as our tools i wasn't bringing those into it because every tank has their own cooldowns and didn't want to make an extremely large post just was wondering about how we were gonna stack up / how this was going to work

Basically in short, in order to hit avoidance cap still you'll have to get appropriate gear (no more mixing in dps gear if your going to be a good tank and yes there are a bunch that do this on live). Also you'll be able to put Dodge/Stamina or Mastery/Stamina gems in Yellow (no different than gemming defense). Parry/Stamina for Purples, if you need and Stamina in your blue's if you wanted or mixes. From what I've seen socket bonuses are a lot more attractive than in the past, especially if wanting to achieve "unhittable". This also gives us some use on pieces of gear with bad enchants as we can now use Mastery on some of them. Such as feet enchant. You can go with Stam + Move speed (if you don't take PoJ) or Mastery if you take it.

All in all, I prefer the choices than the drone choice of Stamina.

---------- Post added 2010-11-22 at 01:27 PM ----------

I think you are incorrect, by logging onto beta and looking at our talents as of now. Also at the Talent Calc,

Rank 1 - Gives Holy shield and 5% more WoG healing

Rank 2 - Does the above PLUS ups the WoG to 10% and gives you a shield for any overhealing done that last 6 seconds.

Ghostcrawler confirmed this about 2 weeks ago

Well, logging on to the beta would be a feat in itself. It just shut down permanently =P Though I did double check the talent calculator it looks like Rank 2 does give the Shield once again. There was a week where it didn't and I just didn't pay any more attention to see if it got added back in.

[towelliee]

Logged in fine last night to work on some arenas did they shut them down or make a post today?

[Lucetia]

if you can get unhittable from first tier then you will have had lots of avoid gems. these subsequently being exchanged for stamina once better gear comes. now for other tanks it would have worked in the opposite direction... having lots of stamina because they needed that EH build and then trying to get those precious avoid trinkets and stuff just to be unhittable because thats >>> EH especially in cata where mana is supposed to matter.
its not like you dont gain anything from going over avoid as you can reforge into stats that increase your aggro.. hit/expertise anyone? so stop being so heroic5man tanks and think a bit harder next time when spiting out parts of theory

Sadly I wasn't going on about anything 5 man Heroic related. I was going over everything in general. Your right on bosses that have some form of physical attention Avoidance > EH. If it's a pure magic based boss only (very rare) then EH wins in that case. Hit and expertise only increase your aggro so much and from what I saw on gear it was really easy to even obtain those caps. 8% hit and 16 expertise + glyph. Expertise past 26 helps some, but not very much if I recall.

---------- Post added 2010-11-22 at 01:31 PM ----------

Logged in fine last night to work on some arenas did they shut them down or make a post today?

Yup -- Just shut them down maybe 30 minutes ago? Official blue posts are up too -- http://blue.mmo-champion.com/topic/1...the-conclusion

[Ozy]

So to be block capped Pallys were looking at roughly 40% block chance (obtainable with massive mastery turnover on gear). So now that we are losing the 15% on HS do we need to muster up 55% now :/ ?.....oh dear please help lol.

[Deleted]

Sadly I wasn't going on about anything 5 man Heroic related. I was going over everything in general. Your right on bosses that have some form of physical attention Avoidance > EH. If it's a pure magic based boss only (very rare) then EH wins in that case. Hit and expertise only increase your aggro so much and from what I saw on gear it was really easy to even obtain those caps. 8% hit and 16 expertise + glyph. Expertise past 26 helps some, but not very much if I recall.

---------- Post added 2010-11-22 at 01:31 PM ----------



Yup -- Just shut them down maybe 30 minutes ago? Official blue posts are up too -- http://blue.mmo-champion.com/topic/1...the-conclusion

there arent any pure magic bosses. never were around. sindy is considered to be a magic heavy encounter and has been done better with unhittable than EH. a boss with a strong magic always has that on a predictable CD (dragonbreath etc) so its a healers fuckup to not have you at +90% when that comes. so no, that argument is invalid (you do have defensive CDs if thats a concern).

I havent checked cata gear. i dont have 8% hit on live and am nowhere near 26expertise (22 on live atm right?) and even though its only like 1 or 2% chance I get a lot of parry from bosses that you would think that blizzard cant do math. so i seriously doubt you have those aggro caps and unhittable at the same time even with t12 heroic. speculation on my part here but thats what Im getting from blueposts

---------- Post added 2010-11-22 at 10:38 PM ----------

on a side note. having 30-50k more life = 3-5k more AP = more aggro

we still forget that alot although I saw my vengeance fall on LK10 nh while he was hitting me the best he could.. gotta hate the rate it decays. a few avoided attacks and you lost 1k ap

[towelliee]

8% hit took A LOT of reforing on my Tier 11 BiS 359 gear. I had to pretty much lose 1.5% AV which is a lot considering at Tier 11 with full epic gear you're sitting at 12% dodge and 12% parry maybe a wee bit more.

Also for Expertise I believe theck at maintankadin said that every point you get up to 26 Exp gives you about 15 more dmg or so, trying to find small graph for it.

[Lucetia]

there arent any pure magic bosses. never were around. sindy is considered to be a magic heavy encounter and has been done better with unhittable than EH. a boss with a strong magic always has that on a predictable CD (dragonbreath etc) so its a healers fuckup to not have you at +90% when that comes. so no, that argument is invalid (you do have defensive CDs if thats a concern).

Excluding melee hits there are some -- Hydross comes to mind. There was a few others in Vanilla -- But your right those won't be around much anymore because of everyone complaining about the effort of farming up Resistance Gear. How is it an invalid argument when EH>Stam on physical and EH>Avoidance on Magical fights?

I havent checked cata gear. i dont have 8% hit on live and am nowhere near 26expertise (22 on live atm right?) and even though its only like 1 or 2% chance I get a lot of parry from bosses that you would think that blizzard cant do math. so i seriously doubt you have those aggro caps and unhittable at the same time even with t12 heroic. speculation on my part here but thats what Im getting from blueposts

In Beta I had 8% hit and 26 expertise (removes dodges). On live I have 8% hit, 20 expertise (22 is dodge), 22.07% dodge, 19.83% parry, 37.86% block. With Kings, Strength of Earth (similar buff) and Holy Shield up I'm sitting at 102.4% on the dot. So getting avoidance capped, hit capped and expertise capped is very much achievable. I could get the last 2 expertise and still be at avoidance cap by regemming, but I don't see the point when it will be replaced in two weeks.

The point is you don't need T12 Heroic to hit all the caps. You can get hit, expertise (dodge), and avoidance if you put for the work and effort to ensure everything is in place. This will determine the tanks who take a lot of damage and don't and the ones who can hold aggro while doing it.

[Deleted]

so yeah just checked intervene:
30sec CD, 25yards range: 2/2 safeguard gives a 6 seconds shieldwall (physical and magical as far as the TT states) and you take the next physical hit for the target (1 additional if glyphed) and you lower the targets threat by 10%.

so if you see a warlock overnuking or whatever and you arent currently tanking you can help him out.. also works as arms/fury
thats about it with helpful skills. we have debuffs (AE attackspeed and phys dmg) and can AE stun or singletarget stun. technically have no CD on taunt if somebody is tanking. spellreflect would be cool but whats spellreflectable nowadays? being restricted to warriors and glyphs (hey shammy) blizzard generally ignores that mechanic in raids.
not to mention that DKs get to spellsteal stuff and you can heal and support well.
druids and warriors lack behind with pve usefulness but that isnt a big problem as you probably wont get to use much of that stuff on a normal basis as rotations are tight to keep aggro

[Lucetia]

Also for Expertise I believe theck at maintankadin said that every point you get up to 26 Exp gives you about 15 more dmg or so, trying to find small graph for it.

I remember the graph, just not sure how much expertise is worth after 26. If I remember right it's still not a lot considering Expertise only affects our Melee, Hammer (this one might not be after all, not sure) and Crusader Strike as opposed to our Consecration, Holy Wrath, Avenger Shield. Judgement's I can't remember as at one time they were and another they weren't.

---------- Post added 2010-11-22 at 01:51 PM ----------

druids and warriors lack behind with pve usefulness but that isnt a big problem as you probably wont get to use much of that stuff on a normal basis as rotations are tight to keep aggro

Maybe in a heroic 5 man nukefest. Not sure about Towelliee, but I always found times to utilize the extra abilities on player's who needed them. Both in live and in beta.

[towelliee]

I remember the graph, just not sure how much expertise is worth after 26. If I remember right it's still not a lot considering Expertise only affects our Melee, Hammer (this one might not be after all, not sure) and Crusader Strike as opposed to our Consecration, Holy Wrath, Avenger Shield. Judgement's I can't remember as at one time they were and another they weren't.

---------- Post added 2010-11-22 at 01:51 PM ----------



Maybe in a heroic 5 man nukefest. Not sure about Towelliee, but I always found times to utilize the extra abilities on player's who needed them. Both in live and in beta.

I wouldn't want my CS or melee to be dodged

[Lucetia]

I wouldn't want my CS or melee to be dodged

lol -- That's why I said up to 26. After 26 only effects Parry =P

[Deleted]

Excluding melee hits there are some -- Hydross comes to mind. There was a few others in Vanilla -- But your right those won't be around much anymore because of everyone complaining about the effort of farming up Resistance Gear. How is it an invalid argument when EH>Stam on physical and EH>Avoidance on Magical fights?




In Beta I had 8% hit and 26 expertise (removes dodges). On live I have 8% hit, 20 expertise (22 is dodge), 22.07% dodge, 19.83% parry, 37.86% block. With Kings, Strength of Earth (similar buff) and Holy Shield up I'm sitting at 102.4% on the dot. So getting avoidance capped, hit capped and expertise capped is very much achievable. I could get the last 2 expertise and still be at avoidance cap by regemming, but I don't see the point when it will be replaced in two weeks.

The point is you don't need T12 Heroic to hit all the caps. You can get hit, expertise (dodge), and avoidance if you put for the work and effort to ensure everything is in place. This will determine the tanks who take a lot of damage and don't and the ones who can hold aggro while doing it.

i have been doing alot of oldschool raids lately but if you count "taking away melee hits" as for a fully magical boss.... well then sindy is full magical too. hydros didnt to 90% 80% or 70% of his dmg with magic if I recall correctly but its been a while since that mattered so I dont know for sure. there were a lot of blueposts on magical bosses and all of them pointed in the direction that you cant go from 70% to dead in one magical attack (nh at least).

to achieve an avoidance build you pretty much need highend topnotch pve gear. its not like T10 is a valid comparison for T11 as it will be entrance level gear. with the changes to holy shield (being the point of this thread) you cant reach it as you posted before. I didnt look up T11 and the numbers needed to get x% avoid but Im fairly confident that its not created for anybody to be near unhittable. i am surprised blizzard gave us the chance to get 8% hit and 26% expertise in t11 or did you reforge/gem in that direction?

a question: can taunts still miss? the glyph has been removed so is blizzard saying tanks need to be hitcapped or potentially wipe because of 0.x% chance to miss a taunt when its needed? that would really suck ass.. if everybody always had to be hitcapped why still have that stat in the game? its not interesting.. its as interesting as driving a car with 4 wheels .. if you dont have 4 you dont drive (5 if you count the steering wheel and 6 if you count the spare you are supposed to have)

---------- Post added 2010-11-22 at 11:04 PM ----------

Maybe in a heroic 5 man nukefest. Not sure about Towelliee, but I always found times to utilize the extra abilities on player's who needed them. Both in live and in beta.

not thinking about the nukefest. Im thinking about encounters that actually need you to be on your toes at all times. if you can hit a glory without fearing that threat might become an issue fine. does it need holypower to be useful? if not thats a failed ballencing.. 40k heal i read before.. not like my debuffs benefit from 20k AP XD

[Deleted]

Holy shield no longer increases chance to block. Instead, it increases the amount blocked by an additional 10%, for a total of 40% damage blocked.

So in 4.0 holy shield went from being really good to OK.
now we are going to have 40% lower mitigation than now so we lose a ton of block.
we will block more when we do block but i would rather have the better chance to block than better block on proc.

i didn't QQ when they nerfed holy shield for 4.0 because of mastery which at 85 it appeared it would even out if not be better and being as over geared as i am for wolk i was like eh whatever but now hey are taking away another 40%. so to put this in perspective i had 104% mitigation (outside of icc) before patch then i dropped to 85% with the changes they made which is about the same as i had with the icc debuff so eh not really an issue

But, now losing another 40% gives me about 45% mitigation that includes block because as a paladin you slacked on stacking block because holy shield took care of it.

So what mitigation wise is the difference between a dk tank and a pally tank now...... nothing except the dk gets a lot of self healing

so what exactly is the benifit to being a pally tank now over other tanks?
every tank has something it did a little better than others
DK- self healing
Pally- better mitigation-(more consistant numbers)
Druid- larger health pool
Warrior- snap threat and intercept/charge

So i don't see how we are going to be competitive as tanks in cata if i am wrong please help me understand the direction we are going in

Whichever way you turn it, block has been GREATLY buffed.
You went from blocking 3k damage (of regular 30k hits, that's 10%), to blocking some less but for 30% per hit.
Let's say a boss hits you 100 times for 100 damage.
I can't remember exactly how much but I used to have like 17% block + 30% was it? from holy shield, that's 47% of the times you block 10% of damage = 470 damage blocked
With 4.0.1 it changed to 30% * (I reforged excess hit and dodge over 22% to mastery) 34% block is what i have now + 15% holy shield = 1470 damage blocked
With 4.0.3a: 40% * (12.5% higher block percentage cos of the mastery buff) 38.25% block = 1530 damage blocked.
And that is just with mastery reforging, it will be even better when we get gear with mastery on it.

---------- Post added 2010-11-22 at 11:15 PM ----------

So to be block capped Pallys were looking at roughly 40% block chance (obtainable with massive mastery turnover on gear). So now that we are losing the 15% on HS do we need to muster up 55% now :/ ?.....oh dear please help lol.

You're not required to be uncrushable anymore... that's been removed waaaaaaaaaaaay back.

[Ozy]

You're not required to be uncrushable anymore... that's been removed waaaaaaaaaaaay back.

Wait, being block capped just mean your covering the block table...has nothing to do with being uncrushable from what I recall?

[belfpala]

Wait, being block capped just mean your covering the block table...has nothing to do with being uncrushable from what I recall?

We used to use (the old) Holy Shield to push crushing blows off the table. Since 3.01, crushing blows aren't on the table at all versus +3 level mobs.

[Dassen]

um maybe if you have a different idea other than just trolling would be helpful

http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...ling-really-is.